Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 21:30, 9 September 2013

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

The purpose of the workshop is for the parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee to post proposed components of the final decisions for review and comment. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions, which are the four types of proposals that can be included in the final decision. The workshop also includes a section (at the page-bottom) for analysis of the /Evidence, and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

Template

1)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

3)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed temporary injunctions

Template

1)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

3)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

4)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Questions to the parties

Arbitrators may ask questions of the parties in this section.

Question for Morwen

Q: @Morwen: why did you decide to move the article without following the appropriate process, in the first place? I understand you felt that the correct title should have been "Chelsea Manning", but, anticipating this action would probably be controversial, why did you think that the brief discussion on the talk page was sufficient?

Salvio

^{Let's talk about it!} 10:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A: As far as I was concerned, trans naming stuff was a settled issue, and I did not anticipate quite how controversial it would be among experienced users and editors. Morwen (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.

Salvio

^{Let's talk about it!} 23:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Questions for David Gerard

Q: @David Gerard: I have read your (Morwen and David's) statement here, but my question is the following: when you protected "Chelsea Manning" and then moved the article again after it had been moved back to "Bradley Manning", citing BLP concerns, did you explain on the talk page the nature of those concerns? (For the moment, I have only found this, but, considering how much has been written about this issue, it's quite probable I might have missed something – in which case, I apologise in advance). My point is that invoking BLP is not enough to freeze the situation as is until a consensus develops to change it: unless the BLP concerns are immediately evident – and, in this case, they were not –, in my opinion, for an action to receive special protection, it's necessary that the person claiming said protection explain clearly (on the talk page or elsewhere), why he feels BLP applies.

Salvio

^{Let's talk about it!} 10:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A: @Salvio giuliano: Going through my edits around the very first hour:

August 22: 13:29 Edit noting MOS:IDENTITY
13:31 protection citing MOS:IDENTITY (the naming issue) and WP:BLP (immediacy, requirement "We must get the article right")
13:36 expand on this and call for proper discussion (within five minutes of the move, which I'd think counts as immediate - please note this when anyone claims the claim of BLP action was not discussed or explained; discussion continued apace over the next few hours, and through the following week)
13:49, note that BLP requires immediatism, not eventualism (per WP:BLP. "The idea expressed in WP:Eventualism – that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape – does not apply to biographies. Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.").
14:34 reverted Tariqabjotu's (apparently knowing) move through BLP
14:35 noted this on the talk page (as the considerations still applied: MOS:IDENTITY establishes a clear and unambiguous declaration as sufficient, WP:BLP mandates immediatism).

At 15:14 (less than two hours after my first move), CaseyPenk posted a formal move request and discussion started in earnest.

There was no way it wouldn't be controversial either way - Manning was and remains an extremely polarising figure. But I do think MOS:IDENTITY read clearly enough that there was a serious potential BLP issue, on a BLP that would be viewed by a lot of people, and that this was sufficiently important that Wikipedia needed to get the BLP right with urgency, thus also demonstrating to the world that any BLP subject, even one as widely controversial (and often reviled) as Manning, would also be treated properly by Wikipedia's BLP procedures - the major impetus of WP:BLP existing as a policy being to make sure that we are seen to treat living subjects of articles fairly. The proper discussion led to a decision to move it back, but the original action was a sincere BLP action in urgent circumstances, and was very quickly followed by the requisite proper formal discussion. Arguably I could have acted more perfectly by starting the move discussion myself, but it was a hectic hour. - David Gerard (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the claims that I did not explain myself appear to be disagreement with the explanation, or scepticism that transgender exists and should even be considered in any way. The long explanation by Morwen is pretty much just an expansion of MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP, and some explanation as to why names are a really big deal for transgender people. I realised the fact it was about Manning would be controversial, I didn't actually figure that editors not believing the very existence of transgender as a thing would be such a huge factor, and that my explanation of an urgent BLP action would be expected, right there at that moment, to prove the existence of transgender and that we should give it any consideration, to people who didn't believe it at all - David Gerard (talk) 21:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Q: @David Gerard: this admin action of yours seems to violate WP:INVOLVED. Would you please explain why you feel it did not or why you thought there were good reasons to ignore the rules regarding admin involvedness?

Salvio

^{Let's talk about it!} 10:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A: WP:INVOLVED says "One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters, at length if necessary." That second sentence would seem to imply that BLP actions, being part of an admin's job, would not produce involvement per se. I don't want to come across as wikilawyerish, but it's really not clear to me how, given the wording and apparent intent, that constitutes prima facie involvement (though the arbcom may of course determine that it does). However, as it is to you - could you please clarify? - David Gerard (talk) 13:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, that was my last admin action on the article. Despite the title protection, the text wasn't actually being vandalised (as yet) so I felt it was important to leave protection as low as was reasonable. I reversed User:Mark Arsten's text protection in the process without discussing it, which I should have, and apologised for - David Gerard (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:FormerIP

Proposed principles

Community approach to disruption

1) It is important that discussion about content on English Wikipedia is focused and conducted in an atmosphere conducive to good decision-making. This is particularly true in cases where discussion is contentious and likely to inflame passions. Editors, including administrators, are therefore expected in such cases to identify, deal with and discourage disruptive behaviour. Disruptive behaviour may include contributions which appear designed to wind up other editors or at which offence may reasonably be taken, as well as contributions which are off-topic or demonstrate a misunderstanding as to the purpose of the discussion. In all cases, action should be taken politely, firmly and impartially.

Comment by Arbitrators:

FormerIP, I fixed a couple of typos and made one minor copyedit. Hope my edits are okay with you. AGK [•] 20:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Discussing gender on Wikipedia

2) For the purposes of discussion of content on English Wikipedia, a person's gender is primarily a question of personal choice, their gender presentation, their self-identification and their identification by others. It should not ordinarily be considered a question of law, morality, anatomy or genetics. Decisions about how to present a person's gender on Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources and should reflect consideration of what preferences they are known to have expressed as well as how other writers have referred to them.

Comment by Arbitrators:

@FormerIP: yes, MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline, but, as {{MoS-guideline}} clearly states Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions. So it should not necessarily be considered gospel in every case.

Salvio

^{Let's talk about it!} 13:04, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Note that this concerns parameters for discussion not content. It clarifies that WP:COMMONNAME does not make all other considerations irrelevant, which I think is a clarification that needs making. Formerip (talk) 12:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOSIDENTIY and its "all or nothing" pronoun approach appears to go against the stated desire of Manning.Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we have evidence of that, although I agree that a conflict between MOSIDENTITY and a person's stated preferences is something that will occur in some cases. This is because MOSIDENTITY is defective. However, it is a guideline. Formerip (talk) 12:49, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct about the lack of evidence, though we could reasonably assume that some transgendered people might prefer their "before" name/gender to be used in their pre-transition phase of life, as Manning has presumably stated. Rigid interpretation of guideline needs to be balanced with common sense.Two kinds of pork (talk) 13:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Correct - we should not have a rigid guide such as this - one of the LGBT journalist associations suggests using pre-transition pronouns for the time before transition - which actually makes more sense to me, given that the biography should not be written from the POV of the subject (for whom, admittedly, perhaps they've always been female), but from a neutral POV - and from a neutral POV, a pre-transition Manning (or Kristen Beck, for another example) was for all intents and purposes male - at least to the outside world, and this was how they were treated. Thus, by always using "she" to refer to the past retroactively, we are in a way misrepresenting the sources.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I know you mean well, but watch your language when discussing this. Saying that calling a transgender person by the gender assigned to them at birth is a "neutral POV" is... not a good way to phrase things, at all. It's also one of the strangest interpretations of policy I've ever seen. Look, your point that pre-transition references may, in many cases, be better given as the old gender is not offensive at all, the way you backed it up to that point. It's one of two common conventions; Wikipedia's current policy is the other; and we could reasonably argue about how to choose the convention. But, after making that point, you then hit rather a minefield when you tried to policy-justify it. I don't even think it's necessary to policy-justify it: A suggestion to change MOSIDENTITY to allow the use of the other convention when subjects use it themselves would likely be largely uncontroversial, after all. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 14:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My claim was, using the pre-transition pronouns for times when X was widely regarded in RS as a man is more neutral (in terms of respecting sources) than retroactively changing the pronouns to suggest that X was "actually" a woman at that time. I am not making the claim that we should continue to use the pre-transition pronouns AFTER transition, just that BEFORE transition there is room for reasonable debate and I can see potential for reasonably using either - as such we should not have sanctions in place around pronouns, as even LGBT advocacy groups don't agree on this point.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:39, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is all a little bit off-topic. No recommendation is made in the above text with regards to how to talk about people at different points in their lives. All the above is saying is that it is original research to determine someone's gender by lifting their skirt but that it is permissible to consider factors other than COMMONNAME. Formerip (talk) 15:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by User:Kww

Proposed principles

BLP is not a shield for misbehaviour or poor judgement

1) WP:BLP, while broad-reaching, does not provide a shield of invincibility to protect admins from sanctions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

The powers afforded by WP:BLP are undermined by misuse

2) False use of WP:BLP by all editors, not just administrators, undermines this important policy.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

WP:BLP did not mandate any particular name for the article

1) WP:BLP, as written at the time the dispute was entered, did not mandate either "Bradley Manning" or "Chelsea Manning" as an article title.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

It may not mandate the use of either one, but the policy can certainly be reasonably construed to favor Chelsea Manning in that a number of reliable sources argue that the unnecessary use of a birth name to refer to a transgendered person is psychologically harmful. Under the "do no harm" principle, I suggest that defaulting to Chelsea Manning pending a community discussion is not an unreasonable construction of BLP policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:59, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

In general, we try not to cause undo harm to the subjects of our BLPs ("the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment"). I believe the spirit of WP:BLP does support the name "Chelsea Manning" but I agree the letter of the policy does not. Hobit (talk) 02:03, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with BLP in action, but deliberately favoring someone's pre-transition name may conflict with "taking human dignity and respect for personal privacy into account." Under the circumstances, some mention of her pre-transition name is unavoidable, but such prominent mention seems to deny her human dignity. Ananiujitha (talk) 02:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are many (many many many) cases in this project where a subject's wishes are denied outright. Whether it is the cases of marginally notable people wishing for their articles to be deleted (most are kept, and I can point to several AfDs where editors vote to keep out of spite/contempt for the subject even making the request) to Tammy Duckworth's request to keep her date-of-birth out of the article (request was denied), and so on. So I'm not finding myself terribly convinced by the "if we do not accede to Manning's perceived pronoun/gender request, we're violating BLP!" yardstick, as by the metric of the "subject wishes", this project routinely ignores this. Tarc (talk) 03:23, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between including someone's birthdate and quite likely insulting someone in the title of her article. Ananiujitha (talk) 15:08, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Feeling insulted" is not necessarily a concern of the project though, and is a bit of a low bar to apply a serious policy like WP:BLP to. There are editors here that claim Muslims are insulted by the images at Muhammad, but we determined that the project's need to provide censorship-free information outweighed the insult caused. Tarc (talk) 15:13, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're trivializing basic respect and human dignity. Ananiujitha (talk) 15:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I personally don't care, but that's neither here nor there. We have policies regarding article titles which should be followed. If policy is at odds with the preference of the transgender community or Manning specifically, my argument is simply that those personal or community preferences should not be given deference. Tarc (talk) 19:31, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is not clear what is meant by "mandate". If it is intended to mean that BLP is irrelevant to the page-naming, then the statement is false. If it is intended to mean that BLP does not sweep all other considerations aside then it may be true, but it would be a trivial finding, having no bearing on anything else to do with the case. Moreover, given the context, the statement appears to entail a determination as to content, and so cannot pass. Formerip (talk) 10:56, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If WP:BLP unambiguously mandated the choice of title, the wheel-warring problems would become one-sided: it would provide a shield for an admin that wheel-warred in the direction of the BLP mandate. Since there is no BLP mandate, the wheel-warring is simply admin misbehaviour.—Kww(talk) 17:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that admins may not cite BLP as a basis for action because if that were so then admins could cite BLP as a basis for action, which they can't? Surely you can see the problem with that. Formerip (talk) 18:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm saying that a mandate from BLP is a valid defense against accusations of wheel-warring. Simply shouting "BLP" when there is no such mandate affords no such protection.—Kww(talk) 19:23, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding to Tarc's comment, this section of WP:BLP applies:

"In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out."

I can find nothing in BLP policy that even suggests that a press release on behalf of the subject would mandate adding controversial information to an article based on reliable third-party sources. Rather, it seems to me that the spirit of the BLP policy mandates removing information that is potentially false or private. Ananiujitha, I respect your personal experience in this matter. You make a claim that deliberately favoring Manning's old name violates the Foundation's resolution on BLPs, but there are several problems with your argument. For one, the article being titled "Bradley Manning" was not deliberately favoring her old name. It was simply the name the subject used at the time the article was written. Two, as a public figure notable before her transition, personal privacy is not an option here. Three, a more complete reading of the Foundation section of the BLP policy is "the Foundation urges that ... human dignity and personal privacy be taken into account, especially in articles of ephemeral or marginal interest". That is guidance, not a mandate. Human dignity would have been well served by taking a deliberative approach. DPRoberts534 (talk) 15:23, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "just an essay" and all, but some may find the opinion expressed at WP:CRYBLP may be of interest. Tarc (talk) 19:31, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David Gerard wheel-warred

2) David Gerard ~~falsely claimed WP:BLP support for his actions and abused his admin tools to preserve his position in the underlying dispute.~~wheel-warred. Since WP:BLP did not mandate the title that he chose, his wheel-warring and use of protection represents a (perhaps unintentional) abuse of admin powers.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

This seems to imply that David Gerard could not reasonably have believed that BLP would apply in this circumstance - but we have dozens of good faith editors who believe precisely that. It also hints at nefarious intent, which would be necessary for the actions to be abuse rather than good faith error. I don't know that such intent is supported by the evidence at hand. And that gap is where we see the difference between "admonished to be more careful" and "desysopped" - an important distinction. UltraExactZZ ^Said~ Did 20:08, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrote to stress the important point. Note that my proposed remedy does not include desysopping.—Kww(talk) 20:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Template

1) David Gerard is enjoined from using administrative tools on any article related to transgenderism.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed enforcement

Template

1)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposals by User:Example 3

Proposed principles

Template

1) {text of Proposed principle}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2) {text of Proposed principle}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

Template

1) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Template

1) {text of proposed remedy}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2) {text of proposed remedy}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed enforcement

Template

1) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Analysis of evidence

Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

General discussion

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

@@ Line 103: / Line 103: @@
 ===Questions for David Gerard===
 :'''Q''': {{ping|David Gerard}} I have read your (Morwen and David's) statement [[Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request#Supplementary !vote rationale|here]], but my question is the following: when you protected "Chelsea Manning" and then moved the article again after it had been moved back to "Bradley Manning", citing BLP concerns, did you explain on the talk page the nature of those concerns? (For the moment, I have only found {{plainlinks|url=https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bradley_Manning&oldid=569732915#Moved_back_to_Bradley_Manning.2C_then_moved_back_to_Chelsea_Manning|name=this}}, but, considering how much has been written about this issue, it's quite probable I might have missed something {{endash}} in which case, I apologise in advance). My point is that invoking BLP is not enough to freeze the situation as is until a consensus develops to change it: unless the BLP concerns are immediately evident {{endash}} and, in this case, they were not {{endash}}, in my opinion, for an action to receive special protection, it's necessary that the person claiming said protection explain clearly (on the talk page or elsewhere), why he feels BLP applies. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml">  '''[[User:Salvio giuliano|Salvio]]'''</span> [[User talk:Salvio giuliano|<sup>Let's talk about it!</sup>]] 10:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
-:'''A''': [''I'll go through my edits later this evening and answer'']
+:'''A''': {{ping|Salvio giuliano}} Going through my edits around the very first hour:
+:*August 22: 13:29 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bradley_Manning&diff=prev&oldid=569722727 Edit] noting MOS:IDENTITY
+:*13:31 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bradley_Manning&diff=prev&oldid=569722905 protection] citing MOS:IDENTITY (the naming issue) and WP:BLP (immediacy, requirement "We must get the article ''right''")
+:*13:36 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bradley_Manning&diff=prev&oldid=569723476 expand on this] and call for proper discussion (within five minutes of the move, which I'd think counts as immediate - please note this when anyone claims the claim of BLP action was not discussed or explained; discussion continued apace over the next few hours, and through the following week)
+:*13:49, note that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bradley_Manning&diff=prev&oldid=569724807 BLP requires immediatism, not eventualism] (per WP:BLP. "The idea expressed in WP:Eventualism – that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape – does not apply to biographies. Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.").
+:*14:34 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bradley_Manning&diff=prev&oldid=569729925 reverted] Tariqabjotu's ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents/Manning&diff=570885218&oldid=570884570 apparently] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents/Manning&diff=570908849&oldid=570908169 knowing]) move through BLP
+:*14:35 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bradley_Manning&diff=prev&oldid=569730090 noted this] on the talk page (as the considerations still applied: MOS:IDENTITY establishes a clear and unambiguous declaration as sufficient, WP:BLP mandates immediatism).
+:At 15:14 (less than two hours after my first move), CaseyPenk [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bradley_Manning&diff=prev&oldid=569734902 posted a formal move request] and discussion started in earnest.
+:There was no way it wouldn't be controversial either way - Manning was and remains an extremely polarising figure. But I do think MOS:IDENTITY read clearly enough that there was a serious potential BLP issue, on a BLP that would be viewed by a ''lot'' of people, and that this was sufficiently important that Wikipedia needed to get the BLP right with urgency, thus also demonstrating to the world that any BLP subject, even one as widely controversial (and often reviled) as Manning, would also be treated properly by Wikipedia's BLP procedures - the major impetus of WP:BLP existing as a policy being to make sure that we are seen to treat living subjects of articles fairly. The proper discussion led to a decision to move it back, but the original action was a sincere BLP action in urgent circumstances, and was very quickly followed by the requisite proper formal discussion. Arguably I could have acted more perfectly by starting the move discussion myself, but it was a hectic hour. - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 21:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
+:Many of the claims that I did not explain myself appear to be disagreement with the explanation, or scepticism that transgender exists and should even be considered in any way. The long explanation by Morwen is pretty much just an expansion of MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP, and some explanation as to why names are a ''really big deal'' for transgender people. I realised the fact it was about Manning would be controversial, I didn't actually figure that editors not believing the very existence of transgender as a thing would be such a huge factor, and that my explanation of an urgent BLP action would be expected, right there at that moment, to prove the existence of transgender and that we should give it any consideration, to people who didn't believe it at all - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 21:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 :'''Q''': {{ping|David Gerard}} {{plainlinks|url=https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bradley_Manning&diff=569731841&oldid=569731619|name=this admin action of yours}} seems to violate [[WP:INVOLVED]]. Would you please explain why you feel it did not or why you thought there were good reasons to ignore the rules regarding admin involvedness? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml">  '''[[User:Salvio giuliano|Salvio]]'''</span> [[User talk:Salvio giuliano|<sup>Let's talk about it!</sup>]] 10:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 :'''A''': WP:INVOLVED says "One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters, at length if necessary." That second sentence would seem to imply that BLP actions, being part of an admin's job, would not produce involvement per se. I don't want to come across as wikilawyerish, but it's really not clear to me how, given the wording and apparent intent, that constitutes prima facie involvement (though the arbcom may of course determine that it does). However, as it is to you - could you please clarify? - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 13:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
+:BTW, that was my last admin action on the article. Despite the title protection, the text wasn't actually being vandalised (as yet) so I felt it was important to leave protection as low as was reasonable. I reversed [[User:Mark Arsten]]'s text protection in the process without discussing it, which I should have, [[User_talk:Mark_Arsten#Chelsea_Manning|and apologised for]] - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 21:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 =Proposed final decision=