Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions at GGTF/Evidence

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Scope

What's the scope of this case? Is it strictly about the behavior of the parties, or given that multiple arbitrators cited the axiomatic existence / problem of, at a minimum, the ratio of the male / female contributions different than population from which Wikipedia draws it editors as a reason to take to case, one even suggesting (and then retracting) a change in policy -- are we allowed to discuss that postulate, and its implications for Wikipedia dispute resolution protocols? NE Ent 12:09, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I heartily second that question. Given that the leading "combatants" on each side are in rare unanimity that they didn't want this case to be accepted, and adding to that the adage hard cases make bad law, I actually have no idea what ArbCom even thought they were accepting. Clarification would help all of us. Here are some possibilities and my thoughts:

1. If it's an attempt to resolve the entire gender gap and systemic bias issue on wikipedia, good luck with all that.
2. If it's because of the latest round of Eric Corbett insulting someone, well, equally good luck with all that.
3. If it's because Corbett specifically pissed off a couple of individuals who see it as a symptom of a hostile environment, that's not an ArbCom matter - particularly given that most of the people Corbett has insulted in the past have been either male or have not disclosed their gender.
4. If it's because some people other than Corbett (Specifico, et. al.) started trolling the Gender Gap talk page and derailing its mission, that might be a case.
5. If it's because the editor with the most edits to the GGTF page confuses incivility with sexism, that's also not an ArbCom matter.

So further thoughts and guidance from ArbCom would help me formulate my thoughts on whatever it is we are debating! Montanabw^(talk) 20:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I would have thought it was obvious it would not/could not be about how to resolve the gender gap issue and that it was entirely about WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour on the part of both "sides". (Which may go to explain why the desire of both "sides" for this not to proceed has been ignored). Apart from examining individual behaviour (and btw Eric Corbett seems to have had a minor role in all this so that really shouldn't be a distraction) what could usefully determined is the standards of behaviour in a "presure group" type WikiProject. Can "opposers" participate, how should "supporters" conduct themselves if they do participate? This would have broader application than the Gender Gap Task Force issue and it seems to me it is unclear at the moment. DeCausa (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

"Pressure groups", as you call them, seek changes that have repercussions for other editors, and so must be open to opposition. Hundreds of those discussing VisualEditor were entirely opposed to the tool or questioned the basic premises of its philosophy; I see no reason why this instance should be "protected" in some way. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Fundamental issue

Not diffable "evidence" exactly, but something that seems quite relevant to the case nevertheless:

"Today, Western feminism [as represented here by the GGTF] isn’t concerned primarily, as it should be, with civic action, but with overreaction to unsavoury elements in popular culture (sexist song lyrics, sexist TV writing) and a never-ending obsession with the identity politics of “privilege.” Every space where feminist theory and issues are discussed must be a “safe” one, which is to say a conformist one. According to the Geek Feminist Wiki, a popular online feminist forum, a “safe space is an area where a shared political or social viewpoint is required to participate.” Discussions, therefore, tend to end before they begin, unless they devolve into yelling matches" (Teitel, 2014).

This is what has happened here, and more importantly, this is why. This case appears to be framed as an opportunity to sanction those yelling the loudest, but doing so wouldn't solve the problem. Discussion is the wiki way, after all. Silencing the opposition is not healthy, and here it's not feasible. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 5 October 2014 (UTC)