Talk:Cerne Abbas Giant

/Archive2012

Display of measurements

I have noticed that many measurements in the article have been flipped so that the display is feet first. In the archived discussion one editor asked for "metric/imperial units plz" while another editor said "In the 'Description' section, I've made all measurements, imperial units first, which I think is still the preferred unit in the UK, and tends to be the one used in most of the references, even though in UK science, it tends to use metric first. At least we should be consistent." On the other hand, MOSNUM, while giving preference for miles in UK articles, does not make an exception for other measures, including feet, square feet and acres. How do other editors feel about conforming with MOSNUM for these measurements? Michael Glass (talk) 01:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

My understanding is that miles are given preference over kilometres in UK articles because that reflects usage in the UK, as well as all roadsigns being in miles. However the same cannot be said for feet/metres: usage is mixed, and official bodies tend to use metres. I am unsure about acres/hectares. I would prefer compliance with MOSNUM if only because not doing so results in the article appearing a little anachronistic. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 13:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Changes made as proposed on 11 March. Michael Glass (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Reversed as I came in after 11 March. The UK is historically uses feet for dimensions such as these. Why not keep it that way here? That some references used show metres is more likely because they were chosen for that very reason rather than that they are typical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timpace (talk • contribs) 20:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Size of the Movember Moustache

There are two sources for the size of the Movember moustache. One is the BBC report, which gives the size as 36ft (11m) wide and 9ft (2.7m) deep, and the report from the National Trust, where one of the installers of the moustache, Mr Richard Brown of British Seed Houses, gives the dimensions of the moustache as 39 ft (12 m) wide and 9.8 feet (3 m) deep. This information can be heard in the video that is embedded in the web page. The video clip is entitled 'Watch our Cerne Giant Movember video' and Richard Brown is the second speaker. He gives the information about 40 seconds into the video clip.

As the two measures are different, the question arises as to which is more accurate, the measurement given by one of installers or the BBC report. In this case I believe that the dimensions given by the installer should be preferred. After all, he should know.

Nevertheless, if we go by the National Trust's figures, the actual video needs to be cited clearly so that it cannot be missed.

I propose to restore the citation to the National Trust web page, but this time I'll try to make sure that the link is to the video clip. Michael Glass (talk) 01:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

There are many more than two sources for the size of the moustache. Most seem to agree with the BBC, although there are some that do agree with Richard Brown too. However, although the Richard Brown video is hosted on the National Trust website, the figures that the NT themselves give, on both their main website and on their press release site, give the same figures as the BBC website. So it seems that the BBC's figures probably came from the NT press release. Did the NT measure the moustache, or pace it out, and found it to be slightly smaller than Mr Brown thought? Who knows? And, to be honest: who cares?! I'd stick with the NT press release figures though, as it is their giant after all, and they should know. :-)

- National Trust Press Office release: https://ntpressoffice.wordpress.com/2013/11/01/giant-support-for-movember-is-a-sight-to-behold/

- National Trust main website entry: http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/article-1355809508227/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timpace (talk • contribs) 21:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is why Richard Brown the designer of the moustache is right and the BBC and others are wrong. Mr Brown said the moustache was 12 metres by 3 metres, and he would know because he designed the moustache. The BBC took the two measurements, multiplied by 3 and got 36 feet by 9 feet. These figures have then been taken up by all and sundry, including the National Trust. However, they are wrong. 12 metres is more than 39ft while 3 metres is 9ft 10.11inches, or close to 10ft.

So we have two choices: the designer's figures or the BBC's rough and ready rendition into feet. In this matter it is preferable to go with the designer's figures than the rough and ready miscalculations of the BBC and others. Michael Glass (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I have therefore restored the more accurate measurements to the text, together with a note to draw attention to the video clip. Michael Glass (talk) 01:11, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

All interesting speculation, but better to stick with the National Trust's official press release figures (https://ntpressoffice.wordpress.com/2013/11/01/giant-support-for-movember-is-a-sight-to-behold/), as reflected in the BBC item, I think, at least while this discussion is ongoing. So, for now, I've restored the original values. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timpace (talk • contribs) 07:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Logical analysis suggests that Michael Glass is likely to be correct. The National Trust did not commission the moustache; they were approached by British Seed Houses and merely accommodated their wish to have the moustache displayed. So the Trust will not have specified measurements. It is unlikely the Trust will have measured the moustache themselves, as it was only in place for one day, and they must have already been given dimensions by British Seed Houses. Why would the National Trust measure such a temporary structure when its creator has already given them measurements? And why would Richard Brown design a structure that has measurements that seemingly are whole units in the imperial scale (as per the BBC and NT), but then publicly describe the structure using metric? Lastly, on these pages the Trust gives all its measurements in feet rather than metres, so it seems likely that they did indeed do a rough-and-ready conversion of the measurements supplied by British Seed Houses. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:18, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

What PaleCloudedWhite has written above makes sense. There is no reason for Richard Brown to give the measurements of the moustache in metres if it had been designed in feet. Why is this usage even an issue? Michael Glass (talk) 22:59, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I think I've covered all bases now with my last-but-one edit. It gives the official NT and mainstream news view and the designers intent. It's hardly a big deal really a few inches here or there on a one-day grass moustache! I think everyone will be happy now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timpace (talk • contribs) 21:20, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that solution has merit provided the designer's figures go first. After all, they are the primary measures. Hence my latest edit, which I hope will be acceptable to all. Michael Glass (talk) 11:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC)