Talk:Saudi-led intervention in the Yemeni civil war

Al Arabiya

It struck me that Al Arabiya might not be a terribly unbiased source for a Saudi military operation, and indeed, a story that was entitled "Saudi warplanes bomb Houthi positions in Yemen" written in a fairly neutral and objective tone yesterday has today become the decidedly more bombastic "Saudi wages ‘Decisive Storm’ to save Yemen": [1] Right now, Al Arabiya is a fair bit ahead of most other news outlets on reporting certain information; it's also cited repeatedly throughout this article and other Yemen coverage.

My suggestion for now is that we try to find other, non-Saudi sources where possible (this goes for Iranian sources as well, which generally have a pronounced pro-Houthi bent) and use Al Arabiya where we need to. For my part, I'd like to be as little-dependent on a clearly biased source, even one that meets WP:RS criteria, as possible. -Kudzu1 (talk) 08:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:Kudzu1 Due to the fact that Saudi media are the closest sources to the event I think we should consider their reports. We can use Saudi or Iranian media if their reports do not contradict with the other sources. However, we should not rely on them and narrate their reports as fact, but we can say "Saudi Media, claims ... " --Seyyed(t-c) 16:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that sounds like a smart approach, at least for the time being. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree Mhhossein (talk) 10:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Article name

The name of the Operation is "Operation Decisive Storm" and so should be the title of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.166.116.68 (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe that name is a propagandistic one, developed, as so many others, by one of the actors in this war. From an NPV, if you ask me, it is an invasion or attack on Yemen by Saudi Arabia. Even the current title, "intervention", is a massaged one that tries not to raise conflicts. However, I think many people concurs in that no baptizing of a military attack by the propagandistic forces of an interested party in a conflict can conceal the facts. Frankly, the number of "baptized operations" in the Middle East, baptisms that only try to create a veil, looking for acceptable or optimistic titles in the evening news, is already numbing. Acting as a long time editor that is suspicious of any unsigned comments on current news that, apparently, try to paint one side of problems with an "enhanced" view, I recommend to follow the lead of the original editor, that tiptoes between strong interests as well as he can. I think we should never use names devised by one warring party without qualification (unless we're showing that fact, and then, in the article body or in redirection pages), no matter how many times they have appeared in the news sources, specially if they are, evidently, "generated operation names" that clearly try to paint a war in a way that people find comfortable. --Ciroa (talk) 13:04, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

London is supporting Saudi Arabia

94.219.102.140 (talk) 19:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for them providing logistical or material assistance? I know the government has spoken in favor, but I haven't seen anything about military/intelligence support. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:23, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

-> http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/national/11882549.UK__backs_Saudi_action_in_Yemen_/ Turkey is also not supporting Saud Arabia by providing logistical or material assistance. What's the difference to GB ? 94.219.102.140 (talk) 19:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

If Turkey isn't assisting the operations, I don't think we should include it either. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Yesterday, Turkish president Erdogan responded to the crisis in Yemen. Can someone add this to "state government responses"? Thank you! (Avicenna1985 (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2015 (UTC))

In an interview with FRANCE 24 on Thursday, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey supports the Saudi-led mission to rout Shiite rebels from Yemen and criticised Iran's regional ambitions in both Yemen and Iraq.

http://www.france24.com/en/20150326-turkey-support-saudi-yemen-erdogan-interview-france-24/

The more exact estimation of Saudi's forces participates in the operation

I added Saudi's claim about the strength of its force. However, as if it is the whole of the Saudi's army and this claim is part of psychological war. In practice, a small part of this army participate in the operation and there is not any plan for sending ground troops[2]. --Seyyed(t-c) 06:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a smart point. According to the sources , this statistic is presented by al-Arabiya TV station which is a Saudi-owned pan-Arab television news channel. Is there any other independent and reliable source verifying this claim? Mhhossein (talk) 10:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@user:EkoGraf; Let's discuss about this claim before removing it from the articles [3]--Seyyed(t-c) 05:23, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

If there are sources that cast doubt on the figure than yes, putting the word claim is appropriate, otherwise its all unsoucred conjecture which falls under OR (Original Research) on Wikipedia. EkoGraf (talk) 15:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

There are sources which shows that these numbers does not relate to operational forces. For example, the 150,000 soldiers have not participated in any action yet.[4] --Seyyed(t-c) 01:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

why did has the map changed so much in the last 24 hours?

I don't understand how it is possible that two of the four groups that were on the map 24 hours ago have now either completely disappeared (as in the case of the Southern Front forces) or lost almost all of the cities and territory that they had controlled (as in the case of the Al Qaeda forces). Is someone fact checking these maps because it seems clear that either someone put up maps with false information or half the entire country of Yemen was miraculously able to fall into the government's control despite the fact that it's a failed state and is so weak that until 48 hours ago they were on the brink of total collapse.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 13:05, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, there. There are a lot of pages like this one on this ongoing conflict, so in future to ensure visibility, I suggest you either on the talk page of the png map or the module it comes from.

I agree there were massive changes. I rarely interact directly with the module, but there were massive changes to it that I wasn't confident in, so I paused my updating of png map whilst discussion was ongoing (something I don't normally advertise, but I try to not endorse edit warring). However a new user appears to have updated based on it, who also did one major revert on the module after his latest revision of the map which turned several red villages black and was quickly reverted. Had he made a version of the map based on his own edit, I would have raised this.

There was discussion of some of this at the module it's made from at Template_talk:Yemen_Insurgency_detailed_map#AQ.

Banak (talk) 13:50, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Lebanon position unclear

How can Lebanon be included in the list of intervention supporters when in the 1st source article one can read: "The speech did not clearly state Lebanon’s official position on the Saudi-led airstrikes in Yemen launched overnight, but Bassil said that there was more agreement than disagreement in the case."? The 2nd source is a personal opinion of a member of the Lebanese government, not a official statement. I therefore recommend removing Lebanon for the sake of preventing ambiguity. Otherwise, Hezbollah's position should also be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lozion (talk • contribs) 16:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

UNO and Yemen intervention

Is there possibility (good action) of resolving the issue of military intervention in Yemen, by UNO? UNO may stop this by resolution of referendum (Plebiscite) whether the people of Yemen wants the previous regime or not, without intervention of any foreign nation. This peaceful solution may also serve as a tool for filtration of involvement of other nations into the affairs of Yemen.Nannadeem (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Some analysts have already pointed out that the attacks have been illegal. In fact it is illegal under UN charter to violate territorial integrity of any country without Security Council resolution, but despite all pretensions we are not really living in a world where rules and laws genuinely matter! Powerful governments act in the spirit of "might makes it right" and UN's Ban Ki-moon can at best complain like a kid or spew his typical "inviting all sides to restraint" and preaching about superiority of dialogue over war, but those are his usually non-binding pure rhetoric to keep up an image of a really mattering "United Nations"! But even that would be in cases when he doesn't practically support the aggressors and pressure the victims as he did in this case! Strivingsoul (talk) 02:05, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes Strivingsoul I endorsed your point of view, but by virtue of worldwide WP say, I think it is very rational for peace loving wikipedians to step forward to request UNO to play its role as envisaged in UNO Charter. Per contents of main article two permanent members of Security Council have given their view for peaceful solution. We may offer our stance on talk page of this article. Submitted for consideration of all peace lovers.Nannadeem (talk) 12:20, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:SOAP, WP:NOTFORUM, WP:NOTBLOG, etc. This discussion is not appropriate for Wikipedia. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Defining the coalition

Sources (including us) often refer to it as a coalition of "Gulf states" or "Arab states" but neither is right. Gulf state is wrong because Morocco and Egypt are involved. Arab states: are Morocco and Egypt considered Arab? But more so the USA has a significant role in this operation, helping to organize the coalition and providing essential satellite, logistical and other support. Excluding the USA one could call it a "regional coalition" but to get it right one would simply have to call it a "coalition" or "Saudi-led coalition of states". -- GreenC 13:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Morocco and Egypt are considered Arab (as are a bunch of North African states, and even a couple of East African states). Take a look at Arab world. As for the U.S., while it is providing non-combat support, it has declared it is not taking part in the intervention itself, so that answers that. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

See the position of US in the main page which states that: spokeswoman said the US would work jointly with Saudi Arabia to provide military and intelligence support while not participating in "direct military action". Thus Enjoying the status of super power its position as a de facto supervisor cannot be ruled out. Nannadeem (talk) 18:06, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

That's WP:OR, unless you can find a reliable source (not a fringe source, including Iranian or Russian propaganda) that says the U.S. is supervising the intervention. -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:14, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Once again: If you put Turkey to the supporter list....

...then you have to put GB to this list too. I'm from Germany and in every newspaper article we can read that London is supporting Saudis intervention in Yemen.

For example: Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/saudi-arabien-bekommt-unterstuetzung-gegen-huthi-rebellen-a-1025714.html Stern: http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/jemen-saudi-arabien-weitet-kampf-gegen-huthi-rebellen-aus-2183267.html Handelsblatt: http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/international/eskalation-im-jemen-praesident-hadi-in-saudi-arabien-angekommen/11558344.html

and so on...

The position of Ankara and London is up to this point congruent.

94.219.102.140 (talk) 16:16, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Unless Turkey is reliably reported to be providing some degree of material or logistical support or committing military or intelligence assets to the campaign, its "role" is political and nonbelligerent (and therefore not meeting the standards for inclusion in the infobox). -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:36, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Pakistan

It has been made clear both by Pakistani Ministry of Foreign Affairs as well by Prime Minister that Pakistan is not participating in this military intervention so please avoid adding Pakistan in the infobox and labeling it as supporter of military intervention. Pakistan was called in by Saudi Arabia to join the coalition but it decided to stay neutral and will only decide to intervene if Saudi Arabia territorial come under attack. --Saqib (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Operation name

The official Saudi Arabian news agency calls it "Determination Storm", not "Decisive Storm"

http://www.spa.gov.sa/english/readsinglenews.php?id=1343684&scroll=1

I would say that needs to be changed throughout the article.

87.173.198.98 (talk) 15:09, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I've seen a couple of variants, but "Decisive Storm" appears most common. There are, not surprisingly, some translation issues with the name. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Internationally recognized government

Judging by the fact that many politicians and military stand on the side of the Houthis, obviously the government actually collapsed. Far as legitimately speak on its behalf? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.158.204.86 (talk) 15:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Sources for Yemeni Casualties

@User:ZxxZxxZ, I found you've done this edit[5], however I could not find the figures in this source as well as the others?--Seyyed(t-c) 02:12, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Israel's position and involvement

@Kudzu1, Mar4d, Cuparsk, and Strivingsoul: Benjamin Netanyahu warned against Iran's role in Yemen and said “The Iran-Lausanne-Yemen axis is very dangerous for humanity and must be stopped,”[6] While his position is clearly pro-Saudi intervention, Israel does not support it officially due to its political expense for Arabs. There is also unconfirmed reports of the Israel's involvement in the operation,[7] which is frequently added and removed from the article.

How should we add this issue in the article?--Seyyed(t-c) 02:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

If reliable sources (and we're talking Reuters, Associated Press, The New York Times, The Guardian, Deutsche Welle, The Jerusalem Post, Al Jazeera, CNN, etc.) report that Israel is indeed taking part in the operation, it should be included. If the sources are not reliable/notable or the reports are sketchy, then it shouldn't be. Simple. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

And I should add: same goes for Pakistan, Turkey, or any other country that gets mentioned. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I got it. But what is your idea about Netanyahu's position. I think we should add it to the article.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:44, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It can be added but by attributing it explicitly to the sources claiming it. This would I think help towards keeping the article more neutral against political biases of the Western/Saudi-affiliated sources and avoid the pro-Israeli systematic bias of the mainstream media that could impede honest inclusive reporting on Western-Asian affairs. We're leaving in a much different world than painted by us by the Corporate media that control most of the Western reporting. Netanyahu's remark must also be included in the International reactions section under Support subsection. Strivingsoul (talk) 03:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)