User talk:Mr KEBAB: Difference between revisions

@Awesomemeeos: Thanks. I'm familiar with the New York accent, but the second video looks interesting. I'll watch it later. Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:23, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Vowel patterns in GenAm and RP

I like your recent edits at the General American article. Illuminates the tense-lax 5-vowel systems of /i, u, eɪ, oʊ, ɑ/ and /ɪ, ʊ, ɛ, ʌ, æ/ in the vowel space. The problem was that /eɪ, oʊ/ are frequently regarded as diphthongs like in RP which obfuscates the relation in GenAm (you have moved them to the main table which is better as they are mostly monophthongal). Any way to make the table for RP in the English phonology article reflect the phonological vowel space? I think a table for RP, like the one you created for GenAm, would have to treat /iː, uː/ on par with /eɪ, əʊ/.--Officer781 (talk) 15:24, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Officer781: Thanks. I'll think about something, but for now I'll just say that GA /eɪ, oʊ/ are not mostly monophthongal (see the article). To call them such was one of the biggest mistakes in the 8th edition of Gimson's Pronunciation of English. They can be monophthongized from time to time, but probably never to the quality of Scottish /e, o/ (especially in the case of /oʊ/), with which they are equated in that book. At least in regions in which the normal pronunciations are ~~monophthongal~~ diphthongal.

Another mistake Cruttenden makes is to show /ɑː/ as central. I strongly disagree with this, as the vowel is noticeably more back than this - it's between central and back or even slightly backer than that (but only slightly, Geordie and some South Africans have a truly back vowel.) This is evident when you hear an RP-speaking person pronouncing BATH words in a conversation with an American. A central vowel wouldn't have such a shockingly different sound (yes, hearing RP-speaking Britons pronounce BATH words still takes me aback after listening to American English for too long, as my ears have to readjust.) Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Officer781: I'm actually thinking about removing the Modern RP vowel chart from Commons. It has at least two noticeable mistakes. We need something better. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:05, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Officer781: What do you think? Mr KEBAB (talk) 03:51, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was on holiday in London and it was difficult for me to reply using my phone. Yes the vowel placements don't seem very accurate, although it ~~certainly~~ looks progressive. The vowel values look to me more like popular London or how RP will turn out in the near future. We can always say that it's modern British English rather than RP? The only real issue I have with it is that it shows STRUT as a range but the rest as vowels. I checked the source and it appears to give STRUT as discrete values as well depending on how "modern" the RP is?--Officer781 (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Officer781: No problem! Did you by any chance listen to the way Londoners pronounce their /ɑː/? To your ears, was the central realization in any way common?

I'm not sure about that vowel chart being progressive, especially in the case of /ɔː/. It's shown as lower than on Roach's chart, which falsely suggests /ɔː/-lowering as an actual change in RP, a change that is not happening.

The lower left corner of the /ʌ/ range is a more [ɐ]-like realization, the upper ~~left~~ right corner is a more [ʌ]-like realization. Both are shown in the source. Certainly, the [ʌ]-type can be thought of as an innovation triggered by the TRAP lowering (to the open front position). It wasn't a mainstream RP realization until very recently, and even now its mainstream status is rather questionable. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, okay that makes sense. Thanks for pointing the /ɔː/ and /ʌ/ points out. That makes me wonder where /ʌ/ "theoretically" (like all those [+back] stuff) belongs in the RP vowel space: central like AusE or back like GenAm? I noticed that the back variant of /ɑː/ still seems to be the common realization (I heard it more often than the central variant), although curiously the recorded train announcement (if I remember correctly. Was it the bus or the train?) pronounces /ɑː/ as central despite pronouncing /ɪə/ as a pronounced diphthong (suggesting conservative RP).--Officer781 (talk) 20:17, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Officer781: There isn't one correct way of presenting the vowel space of RP. /ʌ/ can be analyzed as mid central, mid back, open central or open back, depending on the analysis. We also have to remember that the central-back contrast exists only in the case of mid vowels. Elsewhere, the contrast is between front and non-front or back and non-back vowels. I'm not sure which set of names is more correct in phonology.

The vowel space of modern RP is roughly this:

Close, front /ɪ, ɪː/

Close, non-front /ø, øː/ (which Lindsey writes /ɵ, ɵː/)

Mid, front /ɛ, ɛː/

Mid, non-front:

Central /ə, əː/

Back /ɔ, oː/

Open, front /a/

Open, non-front /ɐ, ɑː/

Diphthongal, with front offset /ɪi, ɛi, oi, ɑi/

Diphthongal, with non-front offset /øʉ, əʉ, ao/ (which Lindsey writes /ɵu, əu, au/, which is completely incorrect in the case of the GOOSE vowel, which isn't a backing but closing diphthong)

The vowel space of conservative RP could be said to be roughly like this:

Close, front /ɪ, ɪi/

Close, non-front /ʊ, ʊu/

Mid, front /e/

Mid, non-front:

Central /ə, əː/

Back /oː/

Open, front /æ/

Open, non-front:

Central /ɐ/

Back /ɒ, ɑː/

Diphthongal, with front offset /eɪ, ɔɪ, aɪ/

Diphthongal, with non-front offset /ɪə, ʊə, ɛə, əʊ, aʊ/

Doesn't it look considerably less natural to you? Because to me, it does! And apparently, conservative RP also contrasts short open central and back vowels.

Again, I'm not sure whether /ɑː/-fronting is an actual change in RP. To me, a central [äː] sounds non-RP and non-Estuary and is a sign of a near-RP accent of someone from Wales/Northern England/Norfolk/some other place. But I could be wrong.

[ɪə ~ iə] for /ɪə/ isn't really a conservative realization, as the change to [ɪː] is far from complete. However, if you consistently use a centering diphthong (especially one of the [ɪ̯ə ~ i̯ə] type) instead of [ɪː], chances are that you're a conservative speaker indeed. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unstressed /oʊ/ as /ə/

Hi, from my experience from some American and Canadian speakers, I noticed that unstressed /oʊ/ is /ə/, especially when open-final (I don't have this reduction). Do you have any direct answer whether this is common among most of these speakers and what exact environment/words it gets reduced? The open-final was just my hypothesis. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 05:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Awesomemeeos: Are you sure that the sound you're hearing is [ə] and not [o̜̽] or [ɤ̽]? If it's one of the latter, it's simply a monophthongized /oʊ/. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but both options seem possible to me.

A true /oʊ/ -> /ə/ change occurs in Cockney, in which words with a final -ow (don't know about other spellings, maybe orthography is irrelevant in this case) are pronounced [ɐ] (phonemically /ə/): [təˈmɒɹɐ, ˈjelɐ]. It's optional and confined only to the broadest speech, as in other accents. I have no idea whether it occurs in North America. If it does, I'd expect to hear it in southern accents. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:56, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Funny that, those two words I heard being pronounced with a schwa. Wolfdog may know. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 06:01, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Awesomemeeos: Can you provide a recording of that? Mr KEBAB (talk) 06:02, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I managed to find this in Forvo: here for number 1, find grande1978 and SeanMauch; here for number 2, find griffeblanche's recording. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 06:52, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Awesomemeeos: Thanks. I don't hear any final schwas there. Grande1978 and griffeblanche pronounce final [o̜̽] (a centralized mid back vowel with weak rounding), whereas SeanMauch's final vowel sounds like [oʊ] to me, perhaps with a slightly reduced second element ([o̽o̯]). They all count as realizations of /oʊ/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:00, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Awesomemeeos: With that being said, [o̜̽] is a schwa-like vowel, just not in the range of acceptable realizations of English /ə/ in word-final positions. Mr KEBAB (talk) 08:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Awesomemeeos: I concur with Mr KEBAB. I don't hear any schwa sounds at all in the audio samples you provided. That said, some Americans certainly do use a schwa in open final position, but it is a fairly marked feature, rather than one used by a typical American speaker. I've heard it in many non-standard accents of the U.S., ranging from the local accents of New York City to Texas. In the U.S., it seems most strongly to be a trait today of Southern American English, where I actually a couple years ago casually documented this exact feature from a native speaker friend of mine. I found that she uses the schwa indeed with words having the <ow> spelling (tomorrow, pillow, window, etc.) as well as in local placenames from her home state (Texas) that end in "o" (like Amarillo, Marlboro, etc.) and in common Spanish loanwords ending in "o" (armadillo, burrito, etc.). In all other cases, she does NOT use the schwa (in hero, zero, Fargo, etc.). A couple of exceptions or intermediate-sounding words existed too (namely these three: Bernardo, Francisco, and sorrow). Wolfdog (talk) 23:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Wolfdog: What do you mean by intermediate-sounding? Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My friend was uncertain or hesitant about these words, and seemed to pronounce them with a quality between the full [oʊ] and the schwa. Wolfdog (talk) 21:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Wolfdog: But those realizations would still count as /oʊ/, no? Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea. Even the schwa allophone (or certain instances of it) might phonemically "count as /oʊ/". Wolfdog (talk) 02:19, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Wolfdog: Ok.

That's heavily dialect-dependent though. In GA, they're always distinct. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:49, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, definitely. I just don't happen to know where these "uncertain words" fall for this particular Southern dialect. Wolfdog (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Wolfdog: Ok. Maybe someone's done some research on that, so you can look for relevant papers. I can't really comment on what I can't hear. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:16, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Awesomemeeos and Wolfdog: Hey! What about words like thorough, borough etc.? In RP, these are pronounced with final /ə/, never /əʊ/ (at least according to the LPD and CEPD). I think these are examples of words in which the GOAT -> COMMA change has become standard. Indeed, the -ough spelling for a final schwa is extremely unusual. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These words certainly use [oʊ] (rather than the schwa) in any American accents I've heard, but they're also not particularly common words. Wolfdog (talk) 21:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Wolfdog: Ok. Last question: would you pronounce Middlesbrough with /oʊ/ or /ə/? Because every Briton I've heard ends it with /ə/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Great question, but I can't authentically answer it. There's not a single word natural to my vocabulary that ends with "-brough", so I have no pronunciation I would default to. I also already know a significant bit about UK town pronunciations, and this name looks especially British to me, so I'm biased with assuming it would end in a schwa. If a U.S. town was called this (and one could be for all I know), I'd ask someone how to pronounce it before making any such assumptions. Wolfdog (talk) 02:15, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Wolfdog: Ok, I get it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:49, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Re: NZ English phonology

Whoops, it didn't notice that was your edit, I thought I had made a typo the last time I edited it and was trying to correct it. My bad. That being said, it does seem like your original edit isn't showing /ɔ/ but instead /ɐ/. Users are being directed to a different page than they were expecting.
Xerces1492 (talk) 07:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Xerces1492: You mean ɔ instead of ɒ. NZ /ɒ/ isn't as open as [ɒ], it's generally closer [ɔ], often also with centralization to [ɞ]. Again, this is a crucial difference between phonemes and allophones. In phonemic transcription, symbols aren't necessarily the same as the most appropriate phonetic symbols. Bauer et al. made a bad call with choosing /ɒ/ instead of /ɔ/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 08:06, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr KEBAB: I'll defer to you, but I'll add that you probably want to stick to peer-reviewed research rather than personal anecdote/research, unless you do actually have a citation for that claim

Xerces1492 (talk) 16:09, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're confusing transcription and actual F1-F2 articulation. All peer-reviewed research shows on the F1-F2 space for LOT as open-mid, not open. Even modern RP uses open-mid. Mr KEBAB was changing the link (ie the articulation), not the transcription. We are still using the open transcription.--Officer781 (talk) 20:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Officer781 and Xerces1492: I think that we're being a bit unfair to him though. He specifically asked for citations, so here are two:

- Bauer et al. (2007), who put /ɒ/ in the centralized open-mid area on their vowel chart.

- Mannell, Cox & Harrington (2009a), who put /ɒ/ in the open-mid area on their vowel chart.

For the full citations, visit New Zealand English phonology#Bibliography. I think that the [ɒ] realization is possible but not very widespread, as it's a less natural vowel than [ɔ]. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:55, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gheorghe Grozav

Hello! I can't figure out whether the primary stress for Grozav is on the first syllable or the second. Here you have a link where people pronounce his name: [1] Thanks in advance!8Dodo8 (talk · contribs) 10:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@8Dodo8: The stress is final. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! :) 8Dodo8 (talk · contribs) 10:50, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Various dubious IPA transcriptions and writing systems in anthem articles

For the past year or two, I've noticed a lot of edits made to national anthem articles with various dubious information such as IPA transcriptions and even writing systems, such as in [2]. One user had been adding these and I am not sure if the information that user provided are accurate or not. Checking the user information, s/he's indefinitely blocked but I am not going into further detail about this. You seem to be knowledgeable in various linguistic topics and IPA transcriptions, can you confirm if the ipa transcriptions are up to par? Thanks Zombie Dragon (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Zombie Dragon: How stupid do you think I am, Diabedia? I'm reporting you as we speak. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:00, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What make you think I am that user? I am not a reckless idiot like him. Does check user has evidence I am him? Are we operating under the same Computer? Please, no need to respond rudely. Zombie Dragon (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 136: / Line 136: @@
 For the past year or two, I've noticed a lot of edits made to national anthem articles with various dubious information such as IPA transcriptions and even writing systems, such as in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthem_of_the_Chechen_Republic_of_Ichkeria]. One user had been adding these and I am not sure if the information that user provided are accurate or not. Checking the user information, s/he's indefinitely blocked but I am not going into further detail about this. You seem to be knowledgeable in various linguistic topics and IPA transcriptions, can you confirm if the ipa transcriptions are up to par? Thanks [[User:Zombie Dragon|Zombie Dragon]] ([[User talk:Zombie Dragon|talk]]) 17:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 :{{replyto|Zombie Dragon}} How stupid do you think I am, Diabedia? I'm reporting you as we speak. [[User:Mr KEBAB|Mr KEBAB]] ([[User talk:Mr KEBAB#top|talk]]) 18:00, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
+::What make you think I am that user? I am not a reckless idiot like him. Does check user has evidence I am him? Are we operating under the same Computer? Please, no need to respond rudely. [[User:Zombie Dragon|Zombie Dragon]] ([[User talk:Zombie Dragon|talk]]) 18:04, 30 November 2017 (UTC)