Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dilla Massacre (2nd nomination): Difference between revisions

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Dilla Massacre

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Following a previous AfD [1] where no consensus was reached due to low community participation, the article continues to fail WP:N guidelines. The citations used are either not reliable (e.g. awdalpress.com, mareeg.com), or do not mention a massacre occurring in Dilla at all. This appears to be a case of citation overkill as per WP:REFBOMB where the goal is to add as many footnotes to the article irrespective of whether they actually support substantive or noteworthy content about the topic. Below is an inspection of all 41 listed citations used in the article, in each instance the source either mentions a clash between two militia in passing, or actually mentions nothing about a massacre or the town of Dilla at all, sometimes non-reliable sources are passed off as reliable:

Citation 1 passing mention of the town of Dilla being destroyed, but no mention of a massacre or any civilian killings [2]
Citation 2 passing mention a village by the name of Dilla being destroyed, but no mention of a massacre or any civilian killings [3]
Citation 3 indicates that it is not a UNHCR document. The citations used to claim ethnic cleansing in the document are not readily accessible [4] [5] [6], thus failing to meet verifiability guidelines as per WP:V.
Citation 4 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” [7] or the town Dilla at all [8]
Citation 5 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” [9] or the town Dilla [10]
Citation 6 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” [11] or the town Dilla [12]
Citation 7 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” [13] or the town Dilla [14]
Citation 8 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” [15] or the town Dilla [16]
Citation 9 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” [17] or the town Dilla [18]
Citation 10 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” [19] or the town Dilla [20]
Citation 11 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” [21] or the town Dilla [22]
Citation 12 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” [23] or the town Dilla [24]
Citation 13 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” [25] or the town Dilla [26]
Citation 14 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” [27] or the town Dilla [28]
Citation 15 and 16 (same reference) does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” [29] or the town Dilla [30]
Citation 17 does not make any reference to Dilla [31]
Citation 18 discusses armed combatants being killed in Borama [32], but no results found when searching for “Dilla Massacre” [33]
Citation 19 describes in German battle between SNM and clan militias. Explicitly states that mass killings or assassinations did not happen. [34]
Citation 20 describes the Barre regime targeting the people of Dilla along with other towns & villages in Somaliland, not the SNM as this article contends [35]
Citation 21 does not show any results for “Dilla massacre” [36]
Citation 22 describes an SNM military victory in Dilla, but no mention of a massacre in the town [37]
Citation 23 does not show any results for "Dilla massacre" [38] or the town Dilla [39].
Citation 24 does not mention "Dilla massacre" [40] or the town Dilla [41].
Citation 25 is not a reliable source, also a dead link [42].
Citation 26 is the same citation as Citation 2.
Citation 27 does not mention "Dilla massacre". Instead discusses a battle between SNM and 26th Brigade of Somali army in the town of Dilla.
Citation 28 is not a reliable source, [43]
Citation 29 is not a reliable source [44]
Citation 30 does not mention "Dilla massacre" [45]. Mentions a clash between SNM and militia belonging to Gadabursi [46].
Citations 31 and 32 are the same source as citation 23.
Citation 33 is not a reliable source [47].
Citation 34 is the same source as citation 23. No mention of “Dilla Massacre” [48]
Citation 35 is the same source as citation 1
Citation 36 is the same source as citation 3
Citation 37 is the same source as citation 1
Citation 38 mentions a clash between Gadabursi militia and SNM in Dilla, but nothing about a massacre [49].
Citation 39 is the same source as citation 24.
Citation 40 mentions fighting between Gadabursi militia and SNM in Dilla, but nothing about a massacre [50].
Citation 41 does not mention of "Dilla massacre" [51] or the town Dilla [52]

As shown above, none of the reputable sources cited mention a "Dilla Massacre". It appears citations are only added to give the appearance of a well sourced article.

At best, a few of the sources discuss a clash between two militia at a town called Dilla, but not to any detail to constitute a notable event warranting a Wikipedia article per WP:N and WP:DEPTH. Many of the citations used are not reputable and fail WP:R. It is also unfortunate that tags listed in the article were removed by "owner" editor [53], violating WP:DETAG. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~*Delete~~*Merge (Somali Civil War), blatant ref bombing. You almost could have just done a G11 (or whatever) deletion request instead of the AfD. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:32, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Somali Civil War. There are numerous sources that state a battle/massacre/event occured at Dilla, but there is not enough information in reliable sources about what happened during that event. Therefore the article should be merged, rather than deleted. MistyGraceWhite (talk) 03:41, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge as per above. SerTanmay (talk)
Delete. These citations used in this article do not assert or even support the name "Dilla massacre" which this article is aiming to create. No credible results for this anywhere, be it Google, Google books, news, or scholar. So if there are no scholarly or published sources that discuss “Dilla massacare” a single article cannot be used to claim a massace took place. Plus most of these sources have either expired, deleted or are non existent.Ciiseciise007 (talk) 09:26, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as it blatantly fails WP:GNG which explains the ref-bombing. The subject is not notable enough per Wikipedia guidelines and what we have appears to be synthesis of mostly non reputable sources culminating in neologism (WP:NEO) not stated by any published reputable source, and so also fails WP:OR. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:31, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

KeepThe sources in the article include several references which allude to the massacre taking place. Amongst the sources:

1) R.J Hayward and I.M. Lewis (2005) both state that Dilla was destroyed and plundered by the SNM as an act of revenge on the Reer Nuur subclan of the Gadabuursi (See: [54]):

"The major town of the Rer Mohamoud Nur, Dila, was thoroughly destroyed by the SNM and still lies in ruin, their rural and urban property has been almost entirely plundered by the SNM apparently to avenge the past fierce resistance put up by this group in particular and the Rer Nur in general, who occupy the buffer zone between the Isaq and Gadabursi."

2) Another source in the article clearly states that there was a massacre in the Borama Region. The town of Dilla was under the Borama district which is why the name 'Borama' is mentioned specifically (See: [55]):

"Armed conflict also occurred which opposed the Gadabursi and the Issaq. In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."

3) Another source in the article clearly states that the Somali Gadabursi civilian community was specifically targeted to settle old scores, hence the massacre:

The assault against the Reer Nuur and other Gadabursi, by the SNM, was described as a way of "settling old scores".(See: [56])

4) Another source clearly states that the Gadabursi were assaulted and pillaged the Borama region by the SNM (See: [57]):

"The SNM assaulted and pillaged Borama, causing about 80,000 people to flee to Ethiopia".

(See: [58])

The title of the article is a reflection of the incidents that took place in the Region as a whole, with Dilla being the most famous. The attack on Dilla was sourced clearly in the article (See: [59], [60], [61]. This sourced ([62]) says: "The SNM had completely destroyed the town of Dilla". So the article didn't fail to meet to meet WP:N at all. The title of the article could be discussed in the talk pages. The sources are very clear to see. Therefore the article should not be deleted. Instead the talk pages should be used to discuss name changes for the article. But thee is no justification for deletion.

Aqooni (talk) 12:43, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The nomination for deletion was already rejected (see: [63]). The result was no consensus and possibly a name change by User:JGHowes on the 22nd October 2019.

Having said that there are enough sources for this page not to warrant deletion. Possibly a name change and a cleanup of some sources. The main source clearly states that ethnic cleansing took place:

"In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."(See: [64]) This reference is present in the article. This article shouldn't be discussed in a deletion page, but in the talk pages.

These sources ([65]), ([66]) and the rest refer to the backdrop and the conditions which allowed the massacre to take place.

This reference: ([67]) states:

Citation 370 states:

"In early August 1990, for example, the SNM infiltrated the Gadabursi town of Boroma, which resulted in 200 dead and 5,000 displaced persons (Compagnon 1990:266; Interview 141) and also attacked the Warsangeli settlement of Hadaftimo in eastern Sanaag, which produced further streams of refugees (Bradbury 2008:78). See also the incidences in the settlements of Dilla, Aynabo, and Erigavo."

If anything, there should be a discussion for a possible name. Most of the references used in the article are valid.

MustafaO (talk) 13:06, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Citations 1 & 2 doesn't contradict the other references that state a massacre took place. It states clearly the destruction of a civilian town named Dilla which obviously included hundreds of innocent civilans (See: [68]) and ([69])
Citations 4 - 18 is an issue of mainly reference accessibility in a few articles and has nothing to do with the name Dilla not being found which is irrelevant because many refer to the incidents that took place in the Awdal Region and the Borama district in particular and go under different topic titles, others show a historical backdrop to the massacre. A possible name change can be warranted here.
Citation 19 does NOT mention a massacre didn't take place [70]
Citation 20 clearly mentions a massacre (which you conveniently ignored): "In early August 1990, for example, the SNM infiltrated the Gadabursi town of Boroma, which resulted in 200 dead and 5,000 displaced persons" (Compagnon 1990:266; Interview 141) and also attacked the Warsangeli settlement of Hadaftimo in eastern Sanaag, which produced further streams of refugees

(Bradbury 2008:78). See also the incidences in the settlements of Dilla, Aynabo, and Erigavo. For a detailed study on the war’s effect on settlement patterns in Erigavo, see Yusuf (2010). [71]

Citations 23 and 24 is an issue of mainly reference accessibility that requires editors to clean up.
Citations 28 and 29 are newspaper articles and therefore unwarranted.
Citation 30 mentions the destruction and massacre of Dilla which is a civilian town and looting of Borama. [72]
Citation 38 mentions destruction of a civilian town with the residents in the town. [73]
The rest of your citations are repeats.

Some of your ignored citations include:

You ignored this source in the article: "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."(See: [74]) This reference is present in the article.
([75]) which states: "In early August 1990, for example, the SNM infiltrated the Gadabursi town of Boroma, which resulted in 200 dead and 5,000 displaced persons"

Deletion is clearly unwarranted as there is overwhelming evidence to suggest the massacre took place. Possibly a name change can be discussed.

MustafaO (talk) 13:49, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as discussed above, the citations used in the article do not mention a massacre in Dilla. As mentioned by other editors, there is no source that explicitly discuss a massacre in Dilla. Xisaabiye (talk) 14:35, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What about the massacre in Borama region/district, which would also include Dilla?

"In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."(See: [76])

Your contention is about a name change. That could be discussed but it doesn't warrant a deletion of the article.

Aqooni (talk) 15:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep — I would support a name change which is a different argument altogether but the topic itself is notable. Here is a book on the subject by historian Prof. Lidwien Kapteijns, published by University of Pennsylvania Press; along with other sources which I have been able to find on Googlebooks - ([77] by Michael Keating of UN, and Matt Waldman - adviser to the UN Special Representative for Somalia, published by Oxford University Press) ; ([78] by Marleen Renders, Ph.D., Political Scientist from Ghent University, published by BRILL) ; ([79] a slight passing for this one I must admit but the article passes GNG). I note that, just because sources are not available online does not mean a topic is not notable. This is especially true for some topics relating to Africa—mainly due to Google's own processes (especially an old topic like this). Senegambianamestudy (talk) 18:32, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Senegambianamestudy: While the topic of Somali civil war has plenty of sources and is indeed notable, the topic of a massacre in Dilla isnt and falls short of WP:GNG. For instance, the first source you've included (Lidwien Kapteijns) does not mention Dilla at all or any massacres there. The same applies for the other citations; they mention a clash between two militia at a town called Dilla, but there is no mention of a massacre. Additionally all these mentions are single-sentence, in passing, and would still fall short of Wikipedia's notability guidelines, i.e. significant in-depth coverage in reliable sources. I think that is the issue, not the name. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Ample evidence provided above points to the article not clearing the basic notability rules of Wikipedia. As such should be deleted. Aspects of the battle between the two militia can be included in the main Somali civil war article, but it has to be supported by reliable sources.Kangdomkome (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete, possible Merge with (Somali Civil War). Though reliable sources do not support a stand alone article about a massacre involving civilians, sources indicate some fighting to have taken place. It would be appropriate to merge into the Somali Civil War article as a battle between the SNM and Gadabursi militia. Jacob300 (talk) 21:41, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~Keep~~, the same arguments presented today, were debunked in the last nomination for deletion. Users here did not utilize talk page to raise the same concerns as last, but are merely pushing for deletion. There was armed conflict against civilians in Dilla as proven by the multiple sources listed above, perhaps a name change is needed but outright deletion is clearly baseless. Aqooni (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You've already voted above, I've put a strikethrough this second vote of yours, if you would like to restore it please remove the vote above as editors vote only once on any given AfD. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete/merge The Somali civil war is full of small scale skirmishes between rebels and government forces. This one in particular is not supported by reliable sources per above comments. Deletion and a small summary in the Somali Civil War article seems like the most appropriate way to go. Madarkis (talk) 00:58, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Since this proposal was started, a user has added several more sources to this page. Also, a merge is unreasonable because after January 1991, the civil war phase of the north was over.Haadmahanjuryt6 (talk) 18:02, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 117: / Line 117: @@
 :::You've already voted above, I've put a strikethrough this second vote of yours, if you would like to restore it please remove the vote above as editors vote only once on any given AfD. --[[User:Kzl55|Kzl55]] ([[User talk:Kzl55|talk]]) 00:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 *'''Delete/merge''' The Somali civil war is full of small scale skirmishes between rebels and government forces. This one in particular is not supported by reliable sources per above comments. Deletion and a small summary in the Somali Civil War article seems like the most appropriate way to go. [[User:Madarkis|Madarkis]] ([[User talk:Madarkis|talk]]) 00:58, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
+*'''Keep'''. Since this proposal was started, a user has added several more sources to this page. Also, a merge is unreasonable because after January 1991, the civil war phase of the north was over.[[User:Haadmahanjuryt6|Haadmahanjuryt6]] ([[User talk:Haadmahanjuryt6|talk]]) 18:02, 14 March 2020 (UTC)