Talk:Misandry

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This article needs to be rewritten

I would like to improve the article, but I think it would be better if I simply rewrote most of it. It's on a very important subject, but currently the article is simply a mess of NPOV violations and original research. Since I have already done a research project on the concept for school, I have the resources to rewrite the article. I have read both Spreading Misandry and Legalizing Misandry extensively, and I think I can summarize the views of Nathanson and Young more accurately than the page currently does. Also, I think I will be able to satisfy those who ask for a critique of the concept of "misandry," because I have found a couple scholarly articles that do so. Does anyone either approve or object to me rewriting most of the article, say, within the next month or so? Speak now. --SecondSight 07:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Write the article on a separate page, say User:SecondSight/Misandry, and others will review it. I think everyone here would welcome more sources than we have now. As for the critique, it is fine if it satisfies the relevant criteria; so it should not be the length of the rest of the article, for instance. Perhaps if you write the article on a separate page, and have others collaborate with you when you are ready, this revision could be done; though it is probably best you do not erase the page and replace it with your own. Let us see what the others say. Rintrah 08:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a lot of the 'new' sourced content from Nathanson and Young and other sources. This was hard work which I welcome review of because I did some sections 'quick and dirty' expecting people like you to come on in. I like Rintrah's suggestion to write the article on another page. I, for one would be glad to collaborate with you when you are ready. If your new article turns out to be a great new article I would be glad to back you when you ask to replace this article with yours.

(drop in editor) 128.111.95.147 02:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think a separate page is really needed as long as any new information is well-cited. If anyone restores something that looks OR, I think the fair approach to take would be to drop a {{fact}} tag on the offending assertion and give them a week to find a notable reference before deleting.

ditto. I would appreciate this too. Please remember that you no doubt have a POV about misandry too if you spent that much time on the topic. We need a chance to discuss sources/citations before there is wholesale deletion here.(drop in editor) 128.111.95.147 02:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

My only warning is this is a contentious group that may challenge a lot of the rewrite. Good luck if you choose to take this on. I for one would appreciate the effort. — edgarde 09:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that this is a contentious topic but contentious topic need not always mean a contentious group. I will, for one, will fight the usual totalitarian tactics radical feminists often use to push their political agendas but I welcome people who can cleanup and revise what is unclear or unsourced here. Please state your cases and be fairminded so I can work with you. (drop in editor) 128.111.95.147 02:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You are certainly welcome to do it: that's what this place does. The more recent summaries of N&Y have been quite good though, both concise and approachable, and I was looking forward to more on the Law aspect. I don't think a different site is necessary: everything remains in the history section anyway. As for a critique section, not a bad idea, and there's plenty of templates for how this is dealt with in an apparently acceptable manner in other articles, such as misogyny. A contentious group? I dare say such a comment could gernerate some contention here... Jgda 02:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, you can do whatever you like because that is what goes on all time here. However, I would appreciate if you would follow the suggestions above to do this on a separate page or failing that choose a section or two to begin with and give us a chance to see your work before you begin wholesale changes to the article. I added a lot of the content from Nathanson and Young, Kipnis, Hoff Sommers, and McElroy that I would like to see in this article in some reasonably representative form because they are prominent sources. I am planning to add more content to the 'law' section from N/Y so please weigh in here if you plan on adding that kind of content from Legalizing Misandry. I have no problem with revisions as long as you make things clearer and fairly show what are very complex and highly loaded issues. In all your work, please refrain from the kind of Orwellian totalitarian tactics so common to 'patriarchal oppression' feminists (please see Antifeminism discussions)]] so I can work with you to better this article. (drop in editor) 128.111.95.147 02:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite proposal

Good suggestions. First, I won't completely rewrite the article from scratch; parts of it, including what you have worked on, will be very helpful. I would definitely like to see Hoff Sommers, Kipnis, and McElroy mentioned. The only thing I worry about is connecting them to the concept of misandry may be original research. If you have citations (ideally with page numbers) of the quotes from them, I can go and check whether they are something we can include in the article. For an article this controversial, we need to be extremely rigorous or people will just keep tagging it. In general, I would say that if a source uses any of the terms (a) misandry, (b) male-bashing, (c) man-hating, (d) hatred/anger/scorn for men, (e) sexism against men, or (f) is discussed by a work that fits those criteria as relating to the topic, it's probably safe to include. If not, then mentioning it is probably original research. So far, most of the quotes look fine, but it's best if I can check the sources and cite page numbers. Here are some other changes I would like to make, so you will know what I have in mind:

You are right to call for extremely rigorous citations here. I also agree with and like your clear criteria for what is misandry. I used similar ones myself when I pulled in the content from Sommers, Kipnis, and McElroy. Sommers is cited in one section thanks to another editor. I should have and I will cite the rest of the content from Sommers, Kipnis and McElroy I added soon. Please show us a sample of your rewrites so we can work with you. However, this looks sound so far. I am also planning on adding a section on Intimate Misandry from My Enemy, My Love. For those who want more 'oracles' she might be another POV. Have your read her book...do you have any ideas about that?(drop in editor) 04:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• The misandric quotes section is currently original research, and lacks proper citations. I think any sane person will be able to see that the quotes are misandric, but that's just my point of view, and article need to be written from a neutral point of view. So we can't just provide quotes from people and claim they are misandric ourselves. BUT if someone else calls a certain quote misandric (e.g. Nathanson & Young), we can mention that in the article, because then it isn't you or me who is calling the quote misandric. See how this works? So I will have to take most of those quotes out, but instead I can look through N&Y for some examples of what they consider to be misandric quotes (and I recall plenty).

Most of those quotes could probably be directly cited from an online quote source. I was not the editor that put them in there. I believe that we need to keep a full range of quotes that show common forms of extreme-feminist and non-feminist misandry so please be careful not to remove quotes before discussion and please use some sort of stated criteria to decide which to keep and which to toss. Thanks (drop in editor) 71.102.254.114 04:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Instead of chapter summaries of Nathanson & Young, I would like to just discuss their views in a more cohesive manner. Perhaps in the future, there can be an article specifically devoted to their work.

Please show us how before you do a complete change. Thanks (drop in editor) 71.102.254.114 04:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• In the Misandry in Popular culture section, some of the possible consequences of misandry are listed. Unfortunately, most of this section is original research. Now, mentioning a possible relationship between misandry and suicide is OK, because this is a connection that N&Y make. But a lot of the section isn't based on N&Y's ideas (e.g. items like "Recounting of death in which the body count as described in terms of "X fatalities, including Y women and children," which reduces the value of the adult male lives lost" and "There is a dichotomy between how men and women are perceived as attractive — women are often depicted or discussed as being beautiful even to other women, while men are regarded as being innately less attractive"). If this stuff isn't coming from N&Y, or another source that passes a criterion like the one I mentioned above, then we can't leave it in the article. We can't can't just list bad things that happen to men and suggest that they are a consequence of misandry, even with empirical evidence that the bad thing is happening (because then we are drawing connections, which is prohibited as original research). But again, if someone else has made that connection in a verifiable source, then we can report that. Abiding by wikipedia policies can be frustrating, and can feel like you are dumbing down the subject, but in the end you end up with a much more rigorous article. --SecondSight 11:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where this section came from...would someone show us? Some of the statistics remind me of Feminism's Status of women section which is has similar problems. Clearly one cannot just say 'women earn less than men' and (COVERTLY) imply that male sexism is the cause when there are many other possible causes such as the careers women choose. I agree that this section needs to be cleaned up and rigorously sourced so the cause and effect relationship between the content and misandry is direct and clear in the content. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.114 04:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

support

Go for it and see what happens. I understand the level of scrutiny you are proposing for this particular article. However, as the person that originally put most of the quote section together, and added other content along the way, I can say that, since I was new to wiki, I used other sociological wiki entries as templates, particularly the most obvious: misogyny. I can only assume that the different levels of acceptability are fundamentally political. Jgda 22:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

objections

I, personally, think it's beyond repair, and should be deleted anyways. --Pichu0102 17:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

comments

Overall, great.

My main quibble — and I'm not expecting it to be addressed in this rewrite — is the quotes section doesn't represent much other than a list of cherry-picked See? Misandry! items. Example: Valerie Solanas is a crazy person who used contemporary political thought as a staging point for her ravings — her sensationalistic opinions are interesting (to sensationalists and people who want to glean meaning from her act of violence) but don't represent a trend in society any more than would Mark David Chapman's as endorsed trendily by The Meatmen.

I agree with you about the kind of person Solanas was. Unfortunately, quite respected institutions appear to feel otherwise. Jgda 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, many other statements in the quotes section are arguable reasonable (albeit avant-garde) attempts to develop a theoretical understanding of real world phenomena. While admittably angry, they are probably not motivated by misandry any more than certain statements by (sorry stock example coming) black revolutionary nationalists are motivated by so-called "reverse" racism. Many of these statements would require substantial context beyond what could be given in this article.

Plumbing the motivational core for theoretical positions can certianly be an interesting practice, but is the identification of misandry as the singular motivation (if that could ever be possible: I'm not sure how...) for a statement that important? A statement could still be expressing hatred without being purely motivated by hatred. Jgda 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

One way to move toward putting these quotes in context would be to abandon categories like In literature and In popular culture, and instead start grouping quotations by the movements they may represent. However, this would probably constitute WP:OR. A more WP:NPOV but less informative approach would be to frame these lists of quotes as collected by which researcher — I imagine many are currently taken from Nathanson and Young, for instance. edgarde 14:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

To be true to Nathonson and Young one must use a category that speaks to popular culture because that is the basis of their research. However, the Literature section seems more like a list of feminist quotes rather than general literature quotes. I don't know where it came from but I didn't see anything like it in N/Y's two books. I did see many of these ugly quotes in many feminist books however and they belong here somewhere to emphasize the extreme nature of Second Wave feminist man-hate and man-scorn. I also note that I intend to add content from My Enemy, My Love, which speak to intimate forms of misandry, a category far different than N/Y's so I believe it is essential to make distinctions between different classes of misandry.

(drop in editor) 71.102.254.114 04:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

POV Check: Literature section: Fatherhood Coalition as source?

Misandry in Literature was apparently lifted from the Fatherhood Coalition's page. The Fatherhood Coalition is a political group. Ergo, "Misandry in Literature" presents a particular view - it is not NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.77.105 (talk • contribs)

Direct quotes with no introduction is hardly POV unless those quotes are false. I suspect the real POV here is that some people hate to see such blatant misandry being reported at all. To me this section needed to be titled correctly, cited and introduced but otherwise it is essential NPOV content. Dozens of books I have read contain these one or more of these quotes and many casually mention the misandry of (for lack of better words) extreme 'Second' Wave feminists. To delete this content is to pander to the usual POV censorship one sees all over the feminism discussion page. The result in feminism is a boring and banal and fraudulent article that fails to represent feminism in all it's flavors. We deserve better here. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.114 04:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

If it wasn't 'listed' it would be original research... (kettle's boiling...) Anyway, I have no particular love for the Fatherhood Coalition, but their verfiable published research isn't any more or less reliable than any other sex-orientated group or person that pursues research interests and that are often used as sources in sex-orientated articles. You are attacking the NPOV of the source now, not the wiki editor. Jgda 21:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say they are less reliable. At least Nathanson and Young can claim academic credentials. Fatherhood Coalition are a more partisan organisation from whom one might expect a list of quote-mined gotcha's that in-context may not reasonably represent instances of misandry, or may not represent wider trends in thought. The list needs some reference point from which the reader can guage bias.

Incidentally, the list on Fatherhood Coalition is fully entitled Feminist Hate-Speech: A Misandry Sampler - Selected Feminist Quotes. Interestingly, the FC list contains sources for most of the quotes. Whoever copied this to Wikipedia left those out. — edgarde 23:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

(I know none of this matters since it's probably going to get rewritten, but it's the principle of the thing!) I teach Freshman composition and I don't know how many times I had to say during the argumentative paper sequence, "Look at your sources. Are these the kinds of sources that are going to convince someone who disagrees with you?" If the Fatherhood Coalition showed up in a student paper, I'd say it again. The Fatherhood Coalition shouldn't be used as a source in a wiki for the same reason it shouldn't be in an academic paper: it is more interested in pushing an anti-feminist point of view than presenting an accurate picture of feminist literature. That bias doesn't disappear when you put the Coalition's words in quotation marks.

The other thing I would point out to the hypothetical student is that he or she quoted X paragraphs of text from the same source. Imagine a student saying "Well, the last draft of my paper on dogs didn't have any sources, so now I'm quoting an entire page from the North American Dog Hater's Society. You said you wanted me to support my argument with sources!" It's not just that we want sources on the page: we want multiple sources from several points of view that we wouldn't feel guilty about using in an academic paper. (Don't start correcting my grammar because I mentioned that I teach Freshman comp. This is informal writing.) 02:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.118.65.208 (talk • contribs)

Good advice for writing modern academic argument (the merits of this backward investagative process are certainly debateable, but not for this forum). The thing is, this is not meant to be an argument trying to persuade anyone of anything. It's trying to inform a reader about a topic. Whether you have ideological problems with this group or not, they are actively involved in the topic of this article. Jgda 00:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

They weren't presented as a proponent of one view or another. They were presented as a source of information about misandry. I've already shown that their quotes are misleading. If you want to include information about the Fatherhood Coalition, feel free, but they're not a reliable source. Jordansc 19:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I find it amusing that this section which is filled with blatantly misandric quotes from man-hating feminists (as opposed to femininsts who respect men) is always being attacked. These quotes are available from many independent sources because they are direct quotes from these feminists. They can easily be attributed and they are quite relevant because they show the blatant misandry of influential Second-Wave feminists (who Nathonson and Young assert are responsible for most MODERN popular misandry.) To use quotes from the "horses mouth" so to speak is about as NPOV as one can be IMO. However, I suspect some people will try to censor this politically incorrect content because it reflects badly on a particular group of extreme-establishment feminists who like to dish it out but who can't take it.(drop in editor) 71.102.254.114 04:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's all part of the game: truth (sans inverted commas) went out the window tied to the wrist of positivism. (They're not dead, just in a deep coma.) Well, at least it's somehow made N&Y look more apolitical by comparison... Jgda 00:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

POV check: Case for removal of Literature section quotes

This is unbiased? Let's look at Marilyn French's quotes. Is she talking about all men or just the men in a particular group? And who is the "he" that the pronoun refers to? I don't know, but I do know something about the quote from her book The War Against Women. The Misandry page on Wikipedia quotes Marilyn French as saying "He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women, whether mate, acquaintance, or stranger; he can rape or sexually molest his daughters, nieces, stepchildren, or the children of a woman he claims to love. The vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above."

Now, let's look at the original quote from the Fatherhood Coalition page: "As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE. Marilyn French (her emphasis)" Wait a second: where did those ellipses come from? It looks like someone on wikipedia took them out! Let's replace those ellipses with what Marilyn French originally said on first full paragraph on page 182 of The War Against Women:

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate women, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. Beyond that, it is not necessary to beat up a woman to beat her down. A man can simply refuse to hire women in well-paid jobs, extract as much or more for women but pay them less, or treat women disrespectfully at work or at home. He can fail to support a child he has engendered, demand the woman he lives with wait on him like a servant. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women, whether mate, acquaintance or stranger; he can rape or sexually molest his daughters, nieces, stephchildren, or the children of a woman he claims to love. The vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above." End paragraph.

That's funny. The quote, as read on wikipedia, makes it look like Marilyn French is saying that "the vast majority of men in the world rape women." Yet the quote, when put back in context, makes it look like Marilyn French is saying something like "the vast majority of men don't hire women for the same jobs as men, don't pay women the same wages as men, disrespect women, fail to support their children, make her do housework for them, or rape women." Now, that sounds a lot more reasonable. She doesn't even say "all men" -- just the majority of men -- and she emphasizes that oppression doesn't mean violent oppression like rape. Isn't it odd how completely different the passage sounds when we actually have context? And isn't it odd how any reader who looks at this page would naturally assume that the full paragraph was the unit of thought, that you need the entire paragraph to see what Marilyn French is actually saying? Any unbiased reader, I mean.

Case closed. I'm deleting this section.06:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)~— Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.118.65.208 (talk • contribs)

Sarcasm, huh? Well, the context changes very little, unbiased reader. Oh, just the majority? That's fine then. I wonder what else can be said about the majority of other groupings and not get a 'hatred' or '...ism' stamp? Try the accusation on for size. Only a very simple reader reads over an ellipsis without caution. Jgda 00:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Given that the final sentence refers to things in the ellipses ("one or more of the above"), why were these taken out? It isn't a matter of brevity: the full quote is only a few lines longer.

The ellipses change the quotes drastically, from an accusation that most men commit rape to an accusation that most men oppress women in some form or another. The claim about rape is patently absurd but the claim about other forms of oppression is debatable. Isn't it true that, globally, women tend to make less than men and typically do more housework? Is any criticism of men equal to hatred of men? Where does this quote even use the word "hate"?

Even the simple reader can't tell that something is missing from the quotes as they were presented and as they are presented now on Wikipedia. There are no ellipses. She or he can only see that Marilyn French apparently believes that most men commit one or more sort of rape. The readers of Wikipedia should be presented these quotes in good faith- they shouldn't have to go find the book to figure out if the mined quotes accurately reflect the author's intentions.

Do you want another quote? There's a quote from Marilyn French's novel, The Woman's Room. Of course, we're never told that it's a quote from a novel and - as everyone knows - we can't assume that the narrator and the author agree. Or perhaps we should all go find quotes from Anthony Burgess or Vladimir Nabokov to accuse them of supporting "ultraviolence" and pedophilia, respectively? Or would you argue that the "simple reader" can just somehow magically intuit that The Woman's Room is a work of fiction rather than feminist theory?

Okay, let's have another quote:

"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, 'hate in love,' for the men women share their lives with--husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers." Judith Levine, My Enemy, My love

This seems like pretty damning stuff... until we look at some of the surrounding text. She's describing an experience years ago, reading a "crazy missive" from Women Against Sex. She finds herself "unsettled" and "at first rejected the thing out of hand" (Levine 2). She is "repelled by their portrayal of the all-powerful Enemy, grotesque as an agitprop puppet" (Levine 3). Then she finds herself recalling her early days as a feminist (in what she calls feminism's "vastly oversimplified" and "wild childhood" (Levine 2)). She recalls "unacknowledged feelings," and "part of [herself]" (emphasis mine) begins to feel sympathy with these ideas. That's when the quote happens. But then turn from page 3 where we find this quote to page 4 where Judith Levine says that "Man-hating is an emotional problem inasmuch as it creates pain and hostility between women and men. But it is not an individual neurosis ala 'Women Who Hate Men and the Men Who...' Man-hating is a collective, cultural problem-- or to refrain from diagnosing it at all, a cultural phenomenon--and men, as the object of man-hating, are part of it too."

So let's break that down. In the original quote, it reads as if Levine is wholeheartedly endorsing man-hating. In context, however there is an entire narrative of reading this misandrous document, rejecting it as "grotesque," and then finding "part" of herself somehow intrigued. Immediately afterwards she calls misandry a "problem" and says that it "creates pain and hostility between women and men" (Levine 4). The Levine narrative, with context, emphasizes the ambiguity and attraction\repulsion she feels about misandry and then talks about it as a problem. She even discusses loving men as well as feeling these feelings of misandry (Levine 4). The quote, however, leads us to believe that Levine just hates men.

Granted, Levine is still talking about man hating, but not in the same way we are led to believe.

So I've proven that the Fatherhood Coalition has changed the meaning of one Marilyn French quote, failed to tell us that another quote from Marilyn French is actually from a work of fiction, and failed to provide important context for the Judith Levine quote. Every quote I've looked at from this site has had some sort of problem with it. The Fatherhood Coalition's status as a reliable source was already questionable because, as Wikipedia policy states "the websites and publications of political parties and religious groups (or websites of their critics or opponents) should be treated with caution, although neither political affiliation nor religious belief is in itself a reason not to use a source." Given that, this additional information should be enough to discount it.

Beyond the Fatherhood Coalition's reliability, there's also the issue of NPOV in this particular section. The Fatherhood Coalition has a particular bias and there are conflicting views on whether or not these authors are misandrous. Even when it's "straight from the horse's mouth," there is still a matter of interpretation. I would argue that the Fatherhood Coalition's view on these authors is being given "undue weight or asserted as being the truth" and is therefore in violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Jordansc 02:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The Judith Levine quote is appropriate and kinda cool so I threw it in under Responses to misandry. Hopefully someone will write a transition. This could theoretically go into a new Literature quote farm, but really quotes should be used sparingly, if at all. This isn't Wikiquote.

I know in advance some IP user will call me a Bolshevik castrati for this. Whatever. — edgarde 07:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think a strong case has been made for deleting this set of quotes as biased. Since a re-write is underway, let's not revert-war over this.

Uhm, lots of IP editors here. I really wish people contributing so much would register accounts. — edgarde 16:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Why would we set ourselves up for the usual totalitarian tactics used to slander people personally rather than discuss issues. The Feminism discussion page is loaded with totalitarian tactics. When I see all this personal slander stop I might be willing to register.

(drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 23:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. I'm two of those IP addresses (switched computers when I came home for winter break). I wrote the Marilyn French bit. Jordansc 16:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There are many overtly and covertly misandric quotes from NPOV sources that show 'oppression'-feminist kinds of misandry. Do all you editors who are so against showing these kinds of misandric quotes have constructive NPOV criteria for their inclusion or are you just trying to censor all quotes that reflect badly on these extreme types of feminists? I have cause to suspect that usual totalitarian tactics here to silence POV that 'oppression'-feminists hate while allowing POV's that 'oppression'-feminists love. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of 'oppression'-feminist literature knows that these misandric statements are common. Many other nicer feminists have made the connections as well. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 23:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Quit your bickering ;) and POV Checks

Hey people, I'm working on a rewrite of this page which should be ready within the next few days. I'm aware of the problems with it, and I will try to address them. Until then, there is really no point in bickering over this article, because so much of it will get changed. Instead, you all could help me by finding verifiable sources on misandry (both pro and con) that I can work into the article. I could especially use citations for the quotes by McElroy and Kipnis. --SecondSight 23:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Please be careful here. You are one editor among many so please bring good changes and please spare us lectures about "bickering". "Bickering" is a fact of life on such loaded articles and although it can be tedious it often leads to better articles. I welcome whatever is changed (by you or whoever else) as long as there is no attempt to water down, or dissemble potent passages to push a POV. I will try to pull in citations for the McElroy and Kipnis content (I added) by the end of the week. I appreciate your review here. It always helps to have other eyes on things because we all have blind spots.(drop in editor) 71.102.254.114 03:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Please note the smiley emoticon after the word "bickering." I was being facetious. As for changes, I will tell you right now that certain sections will have to be removed or heavily rewritten. Some may perceive this as watering the article down, but I think bringing the article in line with wikipedia policy will make it a lot more credible. --SecondSight 20:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that...I am a bit illiterate with emoticons...it is also harder to discern humor on line. I have no problem with you cleaning up certain sections but it is one you to explain how your changes bring things in line with wikipedia before you water down, rewrite or eliminate sections. I have no problem with your professionalism here, I believe what you are trying to do will help but please refrain from telling us what will have to be done as if you are some kind of NPOV authority on wikipedia or on misandry. Many articles related to feminism have been made so banal, boring, and blatantly biased as to be absurd. I hope we see something more like sexism rather than say feminism when WE ALL 'finish' this article. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 20:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Humor is wasted on the dramatic. With oppressed men suffering the Orwellian totalitarian tactics of radical feminists and truth (sans inverted commas) tied to the wrist of positivism, some of us are just too busy freedom-fighting to bother with emoticons and frivolity. Or verifiability. — edgarde 00:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Humor is also wasted on Orwellians which is why one is foolish to use humor with fascist feminists...although who knows where you are coming from here so I intend no personal reaction to your personal reaction. Please spare us these sarcastic personally slandering innuendos and just stick to the facts so we can work to build a good NPOV article. All people, both women and men suffer from the Orwellian totaliatarian tactics of 'oppression'-feminists...I have never read more banal, boring , ugly, and blatantly biased 'research' as that from the 'oppression'-feminist dominated humanities disciplines. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 20:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Heehee. "Just stick to the facts so we can work to build a good NPOV article..." and then he proceeds to slam feminists.

Blackadder: "Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?"

Baldrick: "Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron."Jordansc 20:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me be clear here. There are many kinds of NON-ORWELLIAN feminists...see Chessler's The Death of Feminism 2006...and there many kinds of Orwellian 'oppression'-feminists. I detest the latter but I like the former so spare me slander please. When I edit here, I can separate the many different feminist ideologies. Can you?

Do you have no idea what a distinction is? I separate misandric feminists from other feminists. I also separate where possible people from their tactics but that is a bit difficult sometimes. I find it sad and amusing that so many editors would rather indulge in personal slander than go read the sources. Many many independent sources have weighed in on the ORWELLIAN tactics among an academic and misandric 'sisterhood' of 'patriarchal oppression' female-superiority feminists. I expect better from editors here. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 22:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't plunk things in the middle of my responses. Whether or not you are slamming some feminists or all feminists or a single Feminist is unimportant. You're presenting a very partisan point of view while simultaneously railing about being NPOV. Your accusations of "Fascism," "Totalitarianism," "Orwellian tactics," and the like are distressing. Perhaps you should restrain yourself a little? We're not here to argue about Feminism. Jordansc 22:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry...my mistake...I didn't see it. However please spare me your accusations about a 'very partisan pov'. It is quite important to make distinctions between overtly or covertly misandric femininists and OTHER non-misandric feminists in a misandry article! These so-called accusations of 'fascism', totalitarianism, and Orwellian tactics have been made by Nathonson and Young, many feminists and non-feminists about 'oppression' feminists. Therefore, I have every reason to be concerned that the same tactics used in academia/mass media circles will be used against 'free speech' editors here by misandric 'oppression'-feminists who represent a minority of both women and feminists according to Hoff-Sommers, Paglia and Chessler to name a few. To me 'going back to the USSR' is good reason to be shed some restraint. I suggest that what should 'distress' you is how a few 'oppression' feminists have been able to rape the language, punish whistleblowers and silence dissidents in a free speech nation. The feminism article itself is a terribly predictable example of the boring, banal, and blatantly biased result of such totalitarian tactics. I expect better here. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 23:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Revise or Delete Misandry in Western Culture

There are a number of problems with the Misandry in Western Culture section, problems which have already been noted by Second Sight and drop in editor. The section seems to be both original research and outside of NPOV. Unless someone can (a) source all these claims and (b) present other perspectives on the claims, we need to just delete the section outright. There's no reason to keep these sections up indefinitely in the hopes that someone is going to fix them. Jordansc 20:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Misandric Issues

There exists assertion of a POV as fact a general neglect of male issues and elements of opression (in fact, as in the case of mysogyny, an important party of the misandric phenomena has more to do with omission than explication), such as the facts that who says these facts are related to misandry? Does everyone agree with that?:

• Depression affects more than 6 million men in America alone[1], but the figures may be even higher due to the social stigmas attached to reporting it.

• A much higher percentage of male teenagers commit suicide than female teenagers. says who?

Men constitute approximately 80% of suicides.[2] White males commit most suicides (an extreme act of powerlessness) compared to all other groups, yet the "white male" is also usually portrayed as being in the clear and unambiguous position of privilege and power in most feminist discourse.Says who? There's plenty of discussion of class, etc., intersectionality in contemporary feminist thought. This is an unsourced and POV'ed strawman argument.

• Men make up more than 90% of the prison population in the United States.[3]Misandric discourse denies a connection between offending and a condition of disenfranchisment and frustration what misandric discourse? This is a "some people say..."

• The majority of alcoholics[4], drug addicts, and homeless persons are men.

Men have lower levels of university attendance, do increasingly worse in high schools and middle schools than women, and are far more frequently diagnosed as supposedly being afflicted with learning disorders such as ADHD.Says who?

• Men, on average, have a significantly lower life expectancy than women. Says who?

• Popular culture often depicts men as sex-crazed, and overbearing, an extreme exaggeration of most men's natural interest in sexuality and evolutionary ability Evolutionary? In popular culture? to act aggressively. Says who?
• Depictions of genuinely gentle, nonviolent men as "sissies", unattractive to women Says who? Isn't this a function of heteronormativity rather than misandry?
• Depictions in sitcoms, advertising, and other television shows in which men (especially fathers) are shown as bumbling and inept. And women are never presented in an unfair light? Are we sure that these men are bumbling and inept because they're men?
• Recounting of death in which the body count as described in terms of "X fatalities, including Y women and children," which reduces the value of the adult male lives lost. Is that so? When did this happen and says who?
• Numerous cultural double-binds, such as:
• Men and women are expected to be equal, but men are often expected to be the sole monetary contributors towards expenses (for example, buying expensive jewelry, paying for meals, etc.). Says who?
• Men are told to be increasingly accepting of women who do not fit their expectations of attractiveness, while simultaneously being told (by advertising, print media, etc.) to make themselves increasingly attractive to women.And women are never asked to look attractive to men anymore.
• Men are expected to be masculine, aggressive defenders of women, but also to act feminine and embrace typically female traits.Says who
• Men are taught from a very young age that women are to be kept "on a pedestal" and revered, but the same cannot be said about women to men. Says who?
• The increasingly popular cultural focus on the importance of having an above-average penis size, while simultaneously depicting focus on breast size, waist-to-hip ratio, and other attributes of female sexuality as sexist. Says who?

There is a dichotomy between how men and women are perceived as attractive — women are often depicted or discussed as being beautiful even to other women, while men are regarded as being innately less attractive. Says who? There are an awful lot of passive voices here to get around the fact that the author doesn't have a particular source in mind.

• Sexual oppression of men, often leading to desperate destructive and/or autodestructive acts, is still rarely discussed, while the sexual repression of women has finally been recognized in the last several decades. What are you talking about? Oppression and repression aren't the same thing. And, again, says who?
• Men are expected to repress their sexuality, and are taught that admiring women's bodies is wrong. Who teaches them this?
• Workplaces will often taken the word of women over men when considering sexual harassment claims, even if no evidence supports the women's grievance. Evidence? Sources?
• Rape of men by women is often considered 'desirable' by judges. There is a huge double standard in criminal sentences for rape, abuse and other sex crimes that women commit against men versus those that men commit against women. I'd like to hear from these judges
• When considering crimes of equal magnitude, men will often be dealt harsher sentences than women. Sources?
• Advertising and other media frequently depict men in painful or humiliating circumstances (e.g., being hit in the testicles, threatened with castration, sexually harassed, deliberately denied sexual interactions for control or amusement, raped, verbally assaulted, etc.) as being acceptable or even humorous. Says who?

Here's an alternative argument. Most of what you describe is a function of male chauvinism. Women are expected to be 'on a pedestal,' expected to depend on men, expected to receive less harsh punishments, etc, because they're considered weak. Sexists think that women have to be protected. I don't imagine many of the supposedly misandrous feminists would agree with any of these points. Find me a man-hating feminist who thinks men should pay their bills. These might be men's issues, but are they caused by misandry or feminism? Doubtful. My point here is not that this particular argument should be included in the misandry page, but that misandry isn't the only plausible explanation for all these facts. Therefore these claism aren't NPOV. Jordansc 22:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Revise or Delete Misandry in Law

Is the draft for men motivated by hatred of men? It's not for us to say. Who has made this argument and who disagrees with them? Again, the section appears to be both original research and not NPOV. Jordansc 20:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The draft is for law that legalizes misandry as shown in Nathansons and Youngs huge and exhaustively researched book with that title. I suggest you glance at their book and read the discussions above. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 23:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Where was the source? I didn't see any in the section. And where was a balancing opinion? Jordansc 23:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The source is Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination against Men; Paul Nathanson and Katherine K. Young, McGill-Queen's University Press, Montreal, 2006; ISBN 0-7735-2862-8. This source is recent so I have no idea whether others have weighed in yet with other POV's. (drop in editor) 23:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite in progress

Hi everyone, I am working on the rewrite, and I posted what I have so far on User:SecondSight/Misandry to give you all an idea of where it is going. Keep in mind that it is nowhere near complete. I have ideas for some of the future sections, but those are not necessarily a complete list of the sections the article should have. --SecondSight 02:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this work! I'm afraid I was pretty much defeated by the article when I dipped a toe in a couple of weeks ago.

I like the attempt to rewrite cleanup here but please make sure you include all the key points about misandry...(that are sourced) in the original article somehow. Selective rewriting becomes POV when it misses key themes in say Nathanson and Youngs assertions. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 21:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

One criticism: I'm not nuts about phrases like "Various authors argue" or "Many authors argue." This is a common ploy used on Wikipedia to dodge the requirement for sources or to make a single POV source seem like consensus.

Ditto we need to show these authors somehow. This is too highly loaded an article to make general statements unless you show your sources or unless you quote a source. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 21:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, Christina Hoff Summers coined the "equity feminist" vs. "gender feminist" distinction, so it's odd that you mention this only in regard to Wendy McElroy.

I suggest you read McElroy's Sexual Correctness. She uses 'gender' feminist against other feminist ideologies that have nothing directly to do with Hoff Sommer's 'equity' ideology.

(drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 21:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, one source you may want to look at is Susan Faludi's Stiffed, which is about sexism against men--although I don't think she uses the word "misandry."

The best of luck!

DanB†DanD 03:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

So far it's a balanced-looking presentation of an unbalanced set of facts. I mean that in a good way. The treatment of misandry as a concept rather than a given fact helps a lot. So far I like the way you're handling feminism, with which the old article is pretty rough. The "Some critics"/"Various authors" approach is sub-optimal, but a decent workaround for the time being. The new sectional organization (so far) looks practical. I'm admiring your writing skills. — edgarde 03:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally disagree here. Many independent sources both feminist and non-feminist have been quite 'rough' on 'oppression'-feminists who are openly misandric. Nathanson and Young go further and make a case that "fascist", "ideological" forms of feminism are the causes of modern misandry in popular culture contexts. To censor such so-called 'rough' content is blatant POV that is all to common on the feminism discussion page. I insist on some sort of NPOV balance in this rewrite that shows all these POV's.

Even in your own dissent, you at least recognize a diversity of positions within feminisim re misandry. The current article vilifies feminists pretty broadly (which is what I mean by "rough"), at least in a few places. P.S. Who the hell are you? All I can tell is that you're not me. Can you please sign your comments? — edgarde 01:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The feminism section really needs expansion, but you probably knew that. Not everyone agrees that Feminism caused misandry (Judith Levine, for example).

Also, I find it odd that this sentence is in the basic information: "Misandry is the subject of Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture[1] and Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Again Men[2] by Paul Nathanson and Katherine K. Young." Can we drop it down to the body? I know it's nitpicky for a draft. Jordansc 19:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed but Levine focuses on INTIMATE forms of misandry rather than IDEOLOGICAL forms of misandry so we need to show LEVINE here rather than making absurd circular causeal (they said, she said) arguments that are out of context with respect to the kinds of misandry being shown. SecondSight do you have plans on including Levine in your rewrite? (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 21:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I might be wrong about Levine, but whatev. The idea that feminism caused misandry is still controversial and therefore more than one POV needs to be included. PS: Quit breaking up my comments with your responses. It makes attribution confusing. Jordansc 23:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not about right and wrong...its about some sort of reasonable cause and effect discussion. Shout outs are absurd when we are trying to attribute causeality. I added several other POV's other than Nathanson and Young...including Kipnis, Hoff-Sommers, and McElroy...I could add Paglia, Fillion, and others. If you have 'oppression'-feminist or other sources thatdeconstruct N/Y's assertions or who show how blatantly misandric feminist statements or ideologies are somehow NOT misandric please by all means bring them in but please spare us the usual slanderous circular cat-fight type of 'reasoning' I see 'oppression'-feminists use against their more moderate feminists 'sisters'...in say BitchFest. As for not breaking your comments I will be glad to comply...I am new here. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 00:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. About the "various authors" or "numerous authors" thing, note that afterwards I do go on to list various/numerous authors who say those things. As far as I understand, the "some people say X" kind of format is problematic when it is used as a substitute for citing sources, whereas I am trying to use it as a summary of sources. But if various or numerous people can suggest an alternative wording that is more graceful, I would certainly be open to it. As for Stiffed I am actually reading it now; so far my impression is that while Faludi talks about some problems men face, she doesn't conceptualize them as "misandry" or even as "sexism against men," so I am afraid citing her would be original research, but maybe I am not far enough into the book yet (if anyone can point me to parts of Stiffed where she either discusses sexism against men or "male-bashing," then I think we could use her). Also, the misandry and feminism section is barely started. I would like to mention Christina Hoff Sommers, but I probably won't be able to until I get my hands on her book and find her quote in context. I will probably work on it some more tomorrow; once it is far enough along, I will transfer it to this page. --SecondSight 08:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just got an idea myself for replacing "various authors." Instead, I can say "critics of misandry." At least then the view isn't presented as so universal. --SecondSight 08:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I almost prefer various authors to critics of misandry. "Critics of misandry" implies that anyone who disagrees with the point is either indifferent or pro-misandry. Jordansc 19:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. "Critics of misandry" sounds more specific, but is more weasley. — edgarde 01:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

POV check: Rewrite User:SecondSight/Misandry and general concerns

Before I consider a replacement of this article with this editors rewrite I have a number of POV concerns. While I agree that there is much that needs to be cleaned up or brought into line with wiki policies in this article, I have specific concerns that such concerns might be used as a ploy to push unsourced POV or to delete potent sourced POV so that the material is less 'controversial' to what some sources here call 'fascist' feminists. I have addressed specific concerns to the rewrite editor SecondSight on his? rewrites discussion page. My general concerns are listed below.

I welcome better writing here. However, I will continue to insist that WE ALL include all well-sourced POV's here with some sort of NPOV balance. I am no fool...I know that some editors hate controversial content...but that is no excuse for censorship or other totalitarian tactics here. We need to show all POV's here and make sure they are well sourced. I insist that before, we replace this article with any rewrite we attain some sort of NPOV balance in the rewrite.

• We cannot pander to 'oppression' (as opposed to many other kinds of feminism) feminist POV by censoring all content that shows 'oppression'-feminist misandry. I insist that the views of Nathanson and Young, Hoff Sommers and many other independent authors both feminists and non-feminist who show forms of feminst-inspired misandry be included here with NPOV balance.

• I see a sustained effort in this discussion page to delete sourced content that shows ideological causes of misandry especially with respect to some kinds of explicitly and implicitly misandric feminist ideology.

• I see a possible attempt here to whitewash, delete, or water down potentially controversial POV's from well-sourced authors on misandry. I believe we need to state the sources viewpoints and refrain from weasel-worded statements like 'many authors' unless we include several prominent authors and reference the others.

• I see an attempts above to eliminate highly controversial but easily sourced quotes that show explicit forms of misandry from prominent feminists and others in the Literature section. While that section needs an introduction, the quotes are easy to source from NPOV on-line sources. To delete Literature altogether is the usual totalitarian tactic used in other feminism-related articles to pander to POV.

• Mysogyny shows many forms of women-hate from the genuine to the absurd and from the serious to the silly. Therefore, I believe we need to include all forms/flavors of misandry here. I am concerned that we do not use rewriting as an excuse to unfairly limit the scope of misandry in this article. We have a good definition so we need to show all forms of man-hate here.

(drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 21:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Language like "fascist," "totalitarian," and "insist" does not help your case at all.

It's not appropriate for a Wikipedia editor to judge any statement as misandrist by their own lights, however obvious the judgment may seem. If notable sources have described other notable writers as misandrists, that 3rd-party judgment may be cited.

DanB†DanD 21:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I ask that you READ the sources on this article before you lecture me about 'helping my case'. The terms "fascist", "ideological" and "totalitarian" come directly from sources on this article's list. I have good cause include these terms here and I will continue to "insist" that we all use non-fascist, non-ideological, and non-totalitarian tactics here to stay within wiki guidelines. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 22:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Misogyny is not a good standard to hold ourselves to. If you think Misogyny makes absurd claims, go change it.Jordansc 03:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh do not feed the trolls, dude. — edgarde 01:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. It looks like this is a pattern of behavior for drop in editor. S\he's posting on like half a dozen feminist-related pages. Over on female chauvinism s\he's calling them KGB agents. Good times. Jordansc 03:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh my, one thing we can agree on! I will go there in good time. My point was that misogyny was a complete (although flawed) article. Misandry needs to be no less complete. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 23:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as the quotes in Literature, you still haven't rebutted my evidence against them. Go back and do that or let it rest. Jordansc 23:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look at your evidence but you can expect some of these quotes to reaappear here because they are all over 'oppression'-feminist literature and because they are explicity misandric. I had nothing to do with that section but it amuses me to see how hard people fight to silence blatantly misandric quotes from prominent and influential 'oppression'-feminists. Could you have POV here to pander to too!? (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 23:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Seriously can we all take a break?

There is a rewrite, coming to an article near you. I am trying to fix most of the major concerns of the editors here in the rewrite, so most of the discussion above will be rendered moot. --SecondSight 00:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Support! DanB†DanD 02:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

A Plea for Respect

Someone is repeatedly deleting the section on the "crimes of omission", that is the underreported, neglected aspects of men's suffering and social oppression. The indifference to the opression and suffering of men is a prime example of misanry, of our inability to challenge culturally constructed gender roles.

Why was "Misandry in law" removed? It seemed well referenced and sufficiently NPOV and non-OR. Does it have a new page? 90.192.153.129 21:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Misandry in Law section presented the draft, etc, as misandrous. That's a POV. Jordansc 22:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The court case against the draft asserted that the draft is sexist, but sexism is not the same as misandry. Unless you can find a reputable third-party source that says the draft is motivated by hatred of men, not just by sexist assumptions about men's and women's differing abilities, the article will have to be cut. Perhaps you can find another article where the material will be more on topic (such as a general article about legal opposition to the draft). DanB†DanD 06:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The Misandry in Law section was a horrible example of original research, was not written from a neutral point of view, and did not have verifiable sources. I realize that a lot of editors on this article are very passionate on the subject of misandry. I am too, unlike Jordansc, egarde, and DanD. However, as far as wikipedia policy goes, those three editors are pretty much correct. Wikipedia is not a soapbox for activism for any cause, including just causes like opposition to misandry. But anyway, I think my rewrite will make everyone at least somewhat happy. I still do not understand why people are fighting over this page when they know that a rewrite is coming. --SecondSight 08:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Harmful edits

Jordansc, you have repeatedly performed highly questionable edits, removing large, pertinent sections of this article because you disagree with them and believe they are biased or inaccurate. Chopping out huge sections of encyclopedic articles is not the appropriate way to deal with sections you believe are biased, and I would not be surprised if your edits are malicious instead of being based in a good faith attempt to improve the Wikipedia. Do not remove the sections again. If you believe they are biased or invalid, state all of your specific qualms here, and after a consensus has been reached, then you or someone else should edit them. For the time being, it is unacceptable for you, only one editor here, to assume complete control over this article when there are many other people who are interested in expanding and improving it instead of chopping it down. We all (should) want the Wikipedia to contain the highest quality of articles, but the way to go is careful revisions, agreed upon by the majority of editors, not wholesale article destruction. --HarmonicFeather 04:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no particular reason to actively edit the existing article, as good work is now being done on a complete new draft to replace this one.

However, when large stretches of an article are POV original research, it is perfectly reasonable to cut them in bulk. "Chopping it down" is one good way to improve an article when existing text is worse than nothing. DanB</font>†DanD 06:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of specific edits is generally more productive than discussion of specific editors. However, Jordansc's edits are conspicuously well-justified, explained both in their Edit summaries and on this Talk page, one at quite some length.

I'd ask if there were a specific edit HarmonicFeather found "harmful", but as a rewrite is coming in, it's, you know, not worth mulling over. This little respite might a good time for some of us to review the rules for Wikipedia editors. — edgarde 07:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

What's on the page isn't canon. A single person can put up an entire section; a single person can delete it. If you think the Western Culture and Law sections deserve to be on the page, then we can hash it out in the talk. I've already posted about Western Culture twice and, so far, I haven't received any responses. If you can give some sources and somehow prove this is NPOV, fine, but in the mean time, I think we should take the contested sections down. But, yeah, all of this might be moot when the rewrite comes in.

PS. In Re: "I would not be surprised if your edits are malicious instead of being based in a good faith attempt to improve the Wikipedia." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith Jordansc 08:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

What I've seen of Jordansc's edits are well in line with wikipedia policy. In fact, those sections were such bad examples of original research that anyone who knows about this page has been negligent in not removing them sooner. --SecondSight 08:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

A number of sections were cut and then reverted, much as is happening now. DanB†DanD 17:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess a few editors consider this a good place to itemize various perceived injustices against men. Without arguing the validity of these complaints, I'm reverting the restore of Misandry in Western Culture section for reasons already discussed on this page — these do not support the concept of misandry, and calling them such constitutes original research. Please do not revert/restore unless substantial verification of their relevance can be provided.

Please note that for these items to be restored, they have to be demonstrated as relevant to the concept of misandry. No one is disputing that these things may be unfair, or that a military draft may discriminate against men. — edgarde 18:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

See also: WP:NOT § SOAP

Also gonging "Crimes of Omission", which is again a list of perceived injustices not relevant to the article topic. Please don't restore this. The article is being rebooted — let's start again there. Please give a read to Wikipedia Simplified Ruleset if you haven't already. — edgarde 18:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Although there is disagreement here, I hope an adversarial tone to the editing can be avoided. I thought I would mention that I have rescued the deleted paragraph about Rostker v. Goldberg and added it to the article Conscription in the United States under "legality," and also added a mention under "gender issues" on the general Conscription page. DanB†DanD 22:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Progress on rewrite

Check out User:SecondSight/Misandry to see progress on the rewrite. I have mostly finished the Misandry and Feminism section. Thanks to edgarde, the only person who has been helping me. It might become necessary to break off part of the article into an article either on Nathanson and Young, or on ideological feminism. --SecondSight 01:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)