Talk:Vilna offensive

An entry from Vilna offensive appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 5 November, 2006.

Wikipedia

Name

Shouldn't this be under battle of Wilno (1919)?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Who are you asking this question to, Piotrus? didn't you create the article and the title? Dr. Dan 23:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The name Wilno is not historically correct. Not in 1919, anyway. Perhaps Lysy can get Piotrus (the author), or Halibutt the referee on "historical" names to change this. Dr. Dan 01:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Which is the historically correct name then ? --Lysy^talk 01:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you asking me personally, or rhetorically, I thought Halibutt is the final say on these matters, isn't he? Dr. Dan 01:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You challenged it, you might want to explain yourself now. --Lysy^talk 01:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

O.K., in 1919, the name used for Paris in the English language was not Paryż, nor was the historical capital of Lithuania called Wilno. Dr. Dan 03:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Do go on - I wonder after how many proddings you will answer your own 'rethorical' question... :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Knowing something is incorrect, doesn't require knowing the correct answer, if one is looking for the correct answer. How about Wilnius? Now back to my questions. I'll try again. Is the title of this article, original research? And what is the basis for using the Polish name for this historically Lithuanian city during this time period on English Wikipedia? The Polish annexation took place in 1922. Dr. Dan 01:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

And the Lithuanian annexation took place in 1991. So..?//Halibutt 08:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Annexation in 1991, huh?--Lokyz 09:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there some militarily historic verification of this article's title, namely Operation Wilno? Is there some evidence that this action as portrayed in this article, was under a military code name, that equates to the title "Operation Wilno," created by the Polish military? It has an original research "ring" to it. Dr. Dan 05:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Another try. Did the Polish military have a plan called "Operation Wilno", that was implemented, as presented in this article. What is the basis for using the Polish geographical toponym in this time period in the English encyclopedia? Dr. Dan 14:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

As to the source for Operation Wilno, there are plenty, just google for operacja wileńska and you're there. If you want some specific source, check some serious publications, like for instance the preface to: Marek Tarczyński (1998): Bitwa niemeńska 29 VIII - 18 X 1920: dokumenty operacyjne. Warsaw: RYTM. ISBN 83867893056. Or Grzegorz Łukowski (1994): Walka Rzeczpospolitej o kresy północno-wschodnie, 1918-1920. Polityka i dzialania militarne. Poznań: Wydawnictwo Naukowe Universytetu Adama Mickiewicza. ISBN 83-232-0614-7. //Halibutt 08:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Did the Polish military have a plan called Operacja Wilenska, in 1918-1919, or is this name extracted from some serious publications written in 1994 and 1998? And again, what is basis of using Wilno, on English Wikipedia, in the time period, between 1918-1922. Dr. Dan 15:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Halibutt gave you serious publications above, so stop repeating yourself. As for the basis for Wilno, this is how the city was called by the most of it's population and the army which was involved in this operation.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Stop this! Contributor asked you and your friend question in which nor you nor your friend did not answered at all. Regarding serious publications, I also presenting publications check them: V.Lescius. Lietuvos kariuomene nepriklausomybes kovose 1918-1920. 2004. J. Vaicenonis. Lietuvos kariuomene valstybes politinio gyvenimo verpetuose 1927-1940. M.K. 16:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Please behave, M.K. And give ISBN and publishing house info, thank you.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

You easily can redirect your first part of remark to your "comment" above. As follows - 9955423234; 9955601043. As name is questionable - this result tagging. M.K. 11:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

After finally getting a reply of sorts, some thoughts. First, it appears that no respectable historical English source has ever referred to the surrounding events in this article as "Operation Wilno". Second, no one has provided any historical Polish military designation of an "operation" given the name in the article (this is the unanswered question that I kept repeating). As to what the city was called by most of it's population, and that being "Wilno"; that is an unencyclopedic personal opinion. Most importantly what the Polish army or any army "called" the city is not a reason to use a historically incorrect Polish toponym on English Wikipedia. Making it simpler, if the Germans called Cracow, Krakau, during the Second World War, it's not any kind of a reason to use the German name on EN-WP. Further, if there was a actually (there wasn't) a "Fall Krakau" instituted by the German military, one would still expect that one would refer to the Polish city as Cracow rather than Krakau on English Wikipedia. Dr. Dan 23:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the title can be either descriptive or based on the established usage. If there is an established usage in the English language literature to call the subject of the article "Operation Wilno", that settles is. If there is no single established name, we need to use the descriptive name. It would be some noun (maybe "operation", maybe "offensive", maybe "invasion" (right?) or maybe "expedition") followed by the name of the city (last time I checked it was Vilnius) and followed by the year. --00:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Nice to hear from you (please sign in next time, Irpen). If you read the history of the article and who authored it and gave it its title, and then read the very first entry on this talk page on November 4, 2006 (and the author of that question), maybe you'd be confused too. Dr. Dan 15:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I just followed the red link from the battlebox, IIRC. Halibutt noted above that the Polish term is operacja wileńska. English historiography doesn't seem to have any term for it. So do we use 'operation' translating Polish term, or go with battle? As for Wilno/Vilnius the historical context favours Wilno (this is not the modern Lithuanian city but the 2% Lithuanian historical one we are talking about). Recall also Wilno Uprising and Battle of Vilnius (1944).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Two totally different time periods, two totally different events, although the uprising and the battle are certainly more entitled to some merging or commingling. Dr. Dan 03:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)