Talk:Port Adelaide Football Club (SANFL)

Dubious additions

On January 1 an anonymous editor added the bulk of this article's present content, which is cited dubiously to say the least, and the accounts of the club's legal situation run contrary to what I've found dredging Factiva for cites to Port Adelaide Football Club. One of his citations ("AFL 2005 page 214") seems to be untraceable, the other (PAFC annual report) unclear and certainly unobtainable online. I've put the {{disputed}} tag on here until I can get out to the library and check out the relevant documentation. ～J.K. 07:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Whaddaya know, the anon was right, in substance if not in detail. That'll teach me to judge by appearances. ～J.K. 13:47, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Similar to the Lee Hotti article, people hate anons for some reason. It really is unwarranted. Rogerthat 10:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It's the look of the thing. Anons often don't have much of a clue about wikification and other matters of style. And this particular anon also got a lot of details flat-out wrong. ～J.K. 03:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

As I read it, this article contradicts the Port Adelaide Football Club article as to the history of the club and in particular the 1870 start date. In fact it doesn't even mention the year PAFC joined the AFL and the consequences for the SANFL team. Comments? Fat Red 01:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

That's partially because an anonymous editor who hasn't done their research keeps rewriting the PAFC article. See this edit for a factually accurate version. As for this article here, the old version had some mistakes of detail and frankly execrable English for a topic that doesn't attract non-native speakers, much of which I deleted wholesale out of frustration; I'm trying to work out how to pad out the history section here without substantially repeating material from Port Adelaide Football Club, or at least try to find a graceful way to link to the latter. Suggestions are welcome. ～J.K. 05:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PortMagpies.gif

Image:PortMagpies.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:WoodvilleDesign.png

Image:WoodvilleDesign.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Duplication of content

Everything 1870-1996 is covered, better, at Port Adelaide Football Club. This page should concentrate on the PAMFC post-1996 - without ignoring 1870-1996 of course. I'm not trying to rewrite history here, I just know when two pages start covering the same ground the work of editing increases exponentially. Plus you get two different "camps", two versions of history according to the allegiences of the editors. Carn Port! 202.7.183.131 (talk) 06:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

In actual fact, this page should not cover anything pre-1997 at all! This club was formed in 1997 to REPLACE the previous Port Adelaide side which moved to the AFL competition. The only thing this club shares with the preivious is using the same name and jumper design. For all intents and purposes, it is a completely different club. Seth Cohen (talk) 06:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. It is a different legal entity, but PAFC and PAMFC have a shared history 1870-1996. And in addition to the name and jumper, there's the club facilities, players, staff, supporters etc. PAMFC 1997 didn't just come from the clouds. 202.7.183.132 (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I always thought that the Power was created in 1995/6 for the 97 AFL season, and wasn't a re-imagined version of the SANFL team, which I thought is officially the same team it was 20 years ago. Can evidence be shown here to settle this matter, as 99% of people view the Power as a different entity to the Magpies, and the Magpies of this year to be the same club as the Magpies of the 1900's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.183.131 (talk) 08:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

This history of the two clubs as written on sites such as this is a perfect example of "Wikiality" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isfckingevil (talk • contribs) 07:27, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Biased Content Objection

There is this incorrect and falsfied attempt to discredit the PAMFC as a fake club, or newly established club. This article was revised to reflect a more unbiased and factual account of the PAMFC. G.g. (talk) 12:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Confusion with PAFC and PAMFC

Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997, after the original Port Adelaide Football Club enterd the AFL. Port Adelaide Football Club are the original Magpies but have change it to the Power since entering the AFL and were etablsihed in 1870. Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club are a revised team of the original team. - GuineaPigWarrior 11:45 30 June, 2010

Provide me a link and I'll happily back down Sequal1 (talk) 02:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Link: http://www.portmagpies.com.au/about.php

In the title it says "Celebrating 140 years" and "with both clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996". unsigned comment added by Sequal1 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was etablished in 1997 after the original Port Adelaide Football Club who were established in 1870 went into the AFL. Their two different clubs but both Magpies so ive put both their history together with it showing PAFC and PAMFC. Port Adelaide Football Club article already has their SANFL history on it so ive put Port Adelaide Football section up to top to show the reader their past before Port Adelaide Magpies. - GuineaPigWarrior 10:05, 13 July, 2010.

You're twisting the words of the website. Where does it say it was established in 1997?

A good example of why I think your version is wrong is Holden. They were established in 1856 as J.A. Holden & Co, then in 1919 changed to Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd, then to General Motors-Holden's Ltd in 1931, Holden Ltd in 1998 and finally GM Holden Ltd in 2005.

Using your method, we would have to put Holden down as established in 2005, which is clearly not true!

One last thing, I'm not going to change it back as I'm trying to have an open discussion with you here, but I think we should revert to the original version of the page, not yours, as that is the version of the page everyone was happy with and the version more people agree to. Sequal1 (talk) 01:12, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I think ive explained myself really well and that the website isn't totally right. Who knows who could have written that. And with this Holden thing, they were just "renaming" there bussiness, Port made "another" club to continue there run in the SANFL because the original Port went in the AFL. DO YOU GET IT NOW? GW!

Seeing as you don't seem to wan't to be WP:CIVIL about it, and don't seem to wan't to discuss it. I'm going to revert it yet again. You are wrong, it wasn't "established" in 1997. Sequal1 (talk) 03:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

That is a hypocritically view, Ive tried to tell you, you won't listen. And don't tell me I'm wrong, on the link it says it was established when Port went into the AFL but share the history in the SANFL. GW!

I think this is a case of WP:OWNERSHIP Sequal1 (talk) 03:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well I believe thats a personal view. I do not at all "own this article". I would love alot of people to make this article bigger. But I think you don't understand the differents between Port Adelaide Football Club (Port Adelaide Magpies 1870-1996/Port Adelaide Power 1997-) to Port Adelaide Magpies Fooball Club (Port Adelaide Magpies 1997-). GW!

I'm going to put this forward for WP:DISPUTE as even though we have a majority of editors not wanting this change, you insist on it. We're never going to agree on this. Sequal1 (talk) 04:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well look at the article now, I changed it to make us both happy. GW!

It was not founded or established in 1997, but I'll wait until User:Maggies1870 has a look before submitting a dispute. Sequal1 (talk) 04:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997. The original Port Adelaide Football Club was established in 1870. And by the way, I do not care what Maggies1870 thinks. We both know what he wants. If you had read the link I gave you. Port Adelaide Mapgies Football Club was established after Port Adelaide Football went in the AFL. Which was 1997. GW!

"And by the way, I do not care what Maggies1870 thinks"

This is why I'm going to file a dispute, you don't seem to play nice with other people.

Also, are you talking about this sentence from the link provided? "In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc. with both Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996."

If so, could you please point me to the exact bit where it says it was established in 1997. Sequal1 (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

"In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc". with "both" Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996."

They say "both clubs" meaning 2 clubs. And Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club continued Port Adelaide in the SANFL when Port Adelaide went in the AFL in 1997. GW!

So what you are saying is that Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club ****continued**** in the SANFL. How is that a newly established club if it ****continued**** in the SANFL?? Just wondering. Sequal1 (talk) 06:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't undestand you. I'm not going to write this out again cause i'd just be repeating myself. GW!

A newly established club would ****enter**** the SANFL, an existing club would ****continue**** in the SANFL.

The club was established in 1870 not 1997.

I can't make it any clearer for you. Sequal1 (talk) 06:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Look, read this http://www.portmagpies.com.au/news.php?news_id=539 go down to view point, and it is said they spilt them into "two" clubs in 1997. The original Port Adelaide was established in 1870. This is the new Port Adelaide Magpies. For example, Viacom closed down in 2005 and started a spin-off company in 2006 with the same name. Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club, is a spin-off club of the original Port Adelaide Football Club but the original Port didn't close down. Now do you get me? GW!

I always got you, you <Deleted derogatory comment>, I always understood what you were trying to say, I'm just saying you are wrong.

I'll go back to the Holden comment earlier. Quoted from the article: "After 1917, wartime trade restrictions led the company to start full-scale production of vehicle body shells. J.A. Holden founded a new company in 1919, Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd (HMBB) specialising in car bodies and utilising a facility on King Wiliam Street in Adelaide."

Why is it still listed as being founded in 1856? Because that is when it was historically started, even thought the current company is nothing to do with the original any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sequal1 (talk • contribs) 07:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm right with my original edit with this article. The original Magpies were Port Adelaide Football Club. And they already have a section on the Magpies. This article is about the new formed Magpies. Please understand this because there not the same clubs. GW!

It really is like talking to a brick wall. Maybe I should pick another team, it's be easier than talking to you. Sequal1 (talk) 07:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't understand your logic, I have tried to tell you the differents bewteen the two teams and your being starborn about it. GW!

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I will happily back down, but you haven't provided any proof yet.

I will admit I am being a bit defensive, but this is due to you continuing to edit the page while we discuss it here (which I will revert as soon as you finish btw). How about we finish discussing it before we continue to edit it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sequal1 (talk • contribs) 07:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I just gave you a link and explained it for 3 hours now, I have given you plenty enough proof. I don't understand why you can't see that their two different clubs. GW!

I've decided, Norwood it is. Sequal1 (talk) 08:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Brilliant. GW!

Latest version

After having a proper read through this article this morning, even though I don't agree with it all, it ticks most of the boxes I used to have issues with. I can't see myself making any major changes when this gets un-protected. Sequal1 (talk) 23:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

1870 Vs 1997

Here is the registration details for Port Adelaide Football Club [1]. It was originally called "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED", but changed it's name to "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED". No date is available on the free entry for when they changed their name, but I guess (yes this is a guess with no evidence to back it up) that it was in 1997 when they entered the AFL.

And here they are for the Magpies [2]

Unfortunately, due to the type of company the Magpies are, their registration details don't give you any info.

But, the main thing that I am getting at here is, the company that is playing as Power in the AFL was Registered on the 29/03/1995.

This implies that the company that played in the SANFL in 1996 is definitely not the same company that played in the AFL in 1997, unless obviously, the team that played in the SANFL in 1996 was "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED" (please note the "A.F.L" part of the name).

So, this is the bit when I go back to the whole founded in 1870 and not 1997 argument.

There is no definitive proof that the Magpies were founded in 1870, or if in fact it was power that was founded in 1870, but according to a government website (www.asic.gov.au), the current company that is playing in the AFL was registered in 1995.

My vote is to change the Founded date back to 1870. Sequal1 (talk) 11:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the original Port Adelaide was founded in 1870, now known as "the Power" you are not listning. I am sick and tired of this. This is the "new" Port Adelaide Magpies. The old one are now the "power". Port Adelaide Football Club have a section on the Magpies which goes from 1870 to 1996. Thats when they enterd the AFL. They had to make a new club to keep Port Adelaide Magpies in the SANFL. So they established Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club in 1997. GW!

But they weren't, I have just given you proof provided by the Australian Government that the company that is playing in the AFL was registered in 1995 and wasn't the company that played in the SANFL in 1996, so what you said above "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was etablished in 1997 after the original Port Adelaide Football Club who were established in 1870 went into the AFL" is just not true.

Going by your logic, we are going to have to change the powers wiki page says they were founded in 1995.

Seeing as you have provided me with absolutely no proof that the magpies were founded in 1997 (you keep on pointing me towards [3], but no matter how many times I read it, it still doesn't say it they were founded in 1997. It says they split in 1997, but it doesn't say which way (as in the Magpies stayed the same and Power was the other company, or the other way round).

In the same link it clearly states that they are celebrating 140 years.

Seeing as we are clearly never going to agree on this, and that there is only 2 of us arguing this, I am going to ask for a third opinion WP:3O. Sequal1 (talk) 06:19, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

3rd opinion

In response to the 3O request, I'll say the following. I can't find any RS on the issue, but what little I have found tends to back User:Sequal1's understanding. The ultimate point here is that we don't have definitive sources to back either contention, and therefore our wording should reflect only what is known for certain. I think this issue can be resolved provisionally with judicious wording that is sufficiently elaborative. A statement like:

The current Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club has existed in its present structure since joining the SANFL in 1997. Prior to this event, a Port Adelaide Football club with a Magpies (Crows??) moniker had existed since its creation in 1890. The claim to the heritage from 1890 to 1997 is said to be shared between the current Magpies team and a club in the AFL usually referred to as the "Power".

This type of statement does not definitively state whether the current club is a continuation of the former 1890 entity. This wording should suffice until a definitive source can be found -- a legal record, or something that describes the actual legal events that occurred ... whether 2 brand new teams were legally created, or whether the original club was renamed into the "Power" team, or whether the original club is the same legal entity that is in the SANFL, or whether there was an actual split of a single legal entity. I think after this is found, that the legal info added into the lead can be balanced with the information about stuff like the coincidences in uniform/team colors and pennant collection. Both are reasonable measures of "heritage," so this seems like a fair approach. BigK HeX (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I will concede to go down the route you suggest. I have done a lot or research on this subject and I can't find any proof one way or the other. From what I can see, both clubs are, in the eyes of the law anyway, new clubs. Port Adelaide FC (the AFL club) was a new club, established in 1995 and entering the AFL in 1997. Port Adelaide Magpies FC also seems to be a new club, established in 1997 and staying in the SANFL.

My gripe is, as their is no proof either way, and with both clubs claiming and sharing the history, why is it the PAFC have a founding date of 1870 (on wikipedia), even though legally they were created in 1995 and PAMFC have a founding date of 1997(agian on wikipedia), even though we have no proof when they were established.

Legally, for all we know, PAMFC was just a rename of the original PAFC. The only thing we know for certain is, PAFC is not the same club that played in the SANFL in 1996 and so didn't do the following: "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was etablished in 1997 after the original Port Adelaide Football Club who were established in 1870 went into the AFL"

Thanks for your input. Sequal1 (talk) 09:39, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Just a note ... if both of you agree, you can actually have the article updated with the agreed-upon text even before the protection is lifted. If this is the only cause for the page protection, then an agreement could get the protection removed, I imagine. BigK HeX (talk) 10:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Port Adelaide Power were established in 1996 because, that is when the AFL granted them a AFL license which legally established them as an AFL team. GW!

Wrong, see this link, this is a Government Website that states they were formed on the 29/03/1995. This is a fact that can not be argued against. Click the link and see that the url is asic.gov.au. There is absolutely no doubt that the company that is in the AFL, trading as "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED" was established in 1995. Sequal1 (talk) 13:56, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Again, you never read what I write. I wrote they were "offically established as "AFL" club when they got their license". They were formed in 1995 but got their license in 1996 that offically established them as a AFL club. GW!