User talk:Rhode Island Red

/Archive 1

Thanks

Just wanted to say thanks for your work at Protandim. I know it's tedious to explain both Wikipedia's standards and basic information about research publications over and over again, but I think you're doing a good job. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks back. The support of fellow editors (especially from editors with your vast experience) is greatly appreciated. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

New MLM Article

There's been an article published recently in the The Salt Lake Tribune about the MLM supplement industry. I was wondering if you've read it and want to include any of it in the wiki articles for Monavie, Nu Skin, Xango and USANA.Jean314 (talk) 13:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51183138-76/average-companies-distributors-earn.html.csp?page=1

Cool! Thanks Jean. I'll have a look and get back to you. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:45, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Leef5 seems to want to discuss the merits of the article as well as another source by the name of Len Clements. I've moved the conversation to the USANA Discussion page so that it can attract more eyes if anyone wants to weigh in on it.Jean314 (talk) 13:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Quick question

Hi User:Rhode Island Red - you mentioned in the MonaVie forum that the way I uploaded the changes is making it very hard for people to compare, and I realize now that you're right. In all honesty, I'm used to lurking around pages on my own, making ogre-ish edits, and then wandering on my way without talking to a soul; navigating forums is interesting to me, but a little overwhelming, and I kind of have the feeling I bit off more than I can chew. Do you have a recommendation on how I can upload the changes in a way that's easier for people to review? I figure I'll also add in the quote I removed (it was an arbitrary decision anyway) so that the overall discussion doesn't have to go on a whole bunch of tangents. I'd appreciate any guidance. Thanks, Jonses40 (talk) 02:11, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Test edits should be performed using WP:SB. If you want guidance about an edit that you are considering making, post a question/comment on the article talk page before making the edit.Rhode Island Red (talk) 14:24, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

• also, to be honest, I understand why you did it, but having my edits removed like that feels horrible :( My earlier litigation cleanup I was pretty proud of. I'm honestly really embarrassed I accidentally deleted a section when I was working on it (I was working from a copied rtf file of the entire page, not just the litigation section, and was moving sections around to see how they looked - I must have accidentally not hit control V at some point, and I didn't notice the info wasn't there when I posted live). I have a feeling that because of that mistake everyone is going to discredit any efforts I do on the page now, even though I've already put a bunch of my free time into working on it. I'm half tempted to crawl back into my cave. Should I just give up at this point? Jonses40 (talk) 03:27, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The article in question has been subject to vandalism and driveby partisan editing in the past. So, yes, it doesn't look good when a key portion of critical text accidentally disappears. You might consider working on some other articles to gain more editing experience and familiarity with WP procedures. Don't take the reversion personally. It happens all the time; it's part of the process. BTW, recognize that all of us work for free on WP. Your addition of subtitles on the litgation section might not be such a bad idea. Better to approach the edits one a time rather than making massive changes all at once (it's easier to see exactly what's been changed).Rhode Island Red (talk) 14:24, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

• Since my chance of making productive edit on the page is ruined, then, (I'm assuming any of my edits will be reverted simply on principle now) can I request you personally look at my edits and consider adding some in? You seem to spend a lot of free time on the page anyways, it would take very little time. You know the page well, I would trust your judgment, and I'm confident you'd find them productive. No-one so far has actually looked at the content, just responded to my descriptions in the forum, and I have a feeling it will stay that way. Especially since you seem to care about the quality of the page, and I'm sure are interested in solid improvements. Jonses40 (talk) 16:45, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to assume that no one looked at your edits. Quite the contrary in fact; I for one looked at them and offered you some concrete eplanations that would account for the initial reversion. Nor do I think that your future edits would be reverted "in principle" alone (please consider WP's core principle about assumption of good faith WP:GF when commenting on the actions of fellow Wikipedians). Proposed edits can be outlined on the article's talk page. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

USANA

The edits in question are pretty old and you can find information in the first Archive about someone from USANA HQ using Sock Puppets and being involved in Section Blanking [1]. The people from the PR company were the users name Mlh0919 and Montypics who work for Ricther7 which names USANA as one of their clients. They were constructive with their edits.Jean314 (talk) 17:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Jean. Much appreciated. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

No trouble at all. I'm just glad everyone is taking an interest in the USANA article. With my schedule being what it is it seems I only have time to prevent vandalism (Section Blanking) and make the occassional edit. I've been trying to sit down and review the National Business Review articles [2] for longer than I can remember but just can not find the time with work being what it is. There's some particularly good information provided by a Dr. Murray H. Smith [3] who is a statistician for the New Zealand government but where and how to incorporate it into the article sort of escapes me.Jean314 (talk) 02:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

There's some very relevant content in there Jean. The introductory quote about Murray is really interesting and relevant for inclusion:

"But according to government statistician Murray H Smith, very few Usana distributors are likely to become wealthy. In fact, he said, “you can make a very strong argument that this could be a pyramid scheme.” Dr Smith’s opinion counts in these matters. He’s been an expert witness in every one of the Commerce Commission’s cases against pyramid schemes during the last 10 years. NBR asked him to review Usana’s business structure and compensation plan, and— although he was careful to state that he was qualified to make only statistical judgments and not legal judgments—he said Usana showed some of the characteristics that commonly occur in pyramid schemes"

It goes on to elaborate on the details. Let's work on it together, as your schedule permits. Maybe set up a sandbox page? Have a great day Jean. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

That may be the best course of action. Then I can work slowly on content and not clog up the Discussion board until there's something concrete. Thank you for the suggestion and your offer. Will you be setting up a sandbox or should I?Jean314 (talk) 16:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

How about you sent up the SB for now and we can talk about it once you've got some content posted. Looking forward to colloboarting with you. Quite refreshing! :) Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:44, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I found a few minutes to throw some content together in my sandbox. It will need revisions but it's a start.Jean314 (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you but should I add the new content under the Business Model heading? Jean314 (talk) 19:59, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

No bother at all. Under the business model section seems reasonable to me. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:26, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Good Work

Good effort on The Amway and other MLM articles, it is important these articles reflect reality, are fairly balanced, in line with the WP cause, and not infiltrated by COI or those zealots pushing their promotional agenda. These people with involvements in the company obviously have an interest in reputation management to delete/minimise negative information, and wikilawyering when it suits their POV. They cry foul then harass and accuse others editors like us of doing exactly the same to divert attention from their own POV/disruptions. Their hypocrisy astounds me. We need more editors like you. I've attempted to keep the Network TwentyOne article in order, it would be great if more independent editors scrutinized it for an article that reflects reality, not the promotional puff pieces those in MLM are prone to (and even scrutinise my edits, as I don't claim to be perfectly adept on WP, but I mean well) to the level the Amway article currently receives. Thanks Financeguy222 (talk) 03:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Guy. I realize that WP can be a bit frustrating at times, when working on contentious articles. My advice is to keep your cool at all times, and be sure to respect WP policy. Don't want to get sucked into those edit wars. I had a quick look at N21 -- complicated situation. I'll dig through as time permits. If you ever want to run a proposed edit or a source by me for a second opinion, let me know and I'll give it a sniff test. Rhode Island Red (talk) 06:02, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

		The Medicine Barnstar
		Yes thanks for keeping Wikipedia neutral and not allowing it to be used for promotional purposes. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:18, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks Doc. I am truly honored. What a nice way to finish off the Memorial day long weekend. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:31, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Juice Plus

First a few of posts from User:Alison's talk page to provide background:

Life is certainly interesting over there at the moment. Just wondering if you've come to a determination with the ticket yet? Hopefully I'm not going to be wikistalked here :-) Shot info (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Ugh! Oh, that. Yes - there were serious issues relating to that article and one editor in particular. Those issues were resolved last year, thank goodness, and things have been quieter since. The article could probably use a fresh perspective, though, and be scrubbed for neutrality by an outside editor - Alison ^❤ 05:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

User:Rhode Island Red is back in ownership mode at Juice Plus, in spite of the requests made prior to his 6-month ban that he stop editing the article altogether. The article is a travesty, as many have remarked over the years, and a blot on Wikipedia's reputation. ". --TraceyR (talk) 23:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

(also posted on my talk page): Tracey R, I am very concerned about your conduct with respect to Juice Plus and the campaigning that you are now doing, insinuating article ownership, misstating that I was banned in the past, and absurdly asking for me to be banned from WP in the future.[4][5][6] The time has come for you to stop this harassment, as I have had to endure more than enough of it in the past and it is becoming a serious hindrance to the project and my editorial freedom. If you aren’t willing to refrain from such inappropriate conduct voluntarily than I suggest that we take this to the highest level of dispute resolution in which we can discuss COI and you connection with Juice Plus. As a distributor, you should have revealed your COI long ago, but instead you lied about it and have been skirting the rules all along. This harassment, and the contentious editing on Juice Plus, must stop. How do you want to proceed? Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I shall reply to Rhode Island Red on his talk page. I see no need to maintain several parallel threads. --TraceyR (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

So here's my reply:

It is hard to reply to a posting which demonstrates that you find it hard to understand simple English. Also you continue to misrepresent what others write, making constructive debate impossible. Even going through each point item by item hasn't helped - you just ignore everything and go off on a tangent. What is so hard to understand about this sentence: "I would suggest an admin investigation into the neutrality of the article, leading in all probability to a permanent ban on his activities there, but I have removed the article from my watchlist instead"?

I can't be bothered to parse the sentence, explain the meanings of individual words etc. You must be semantically challenged to construe this as "asking for you to be banned from WP in the future" (banning you in the past would be difficult). It specifically doesn't request this (it might help to look up the meaning of "instead").

It doesn't state even that a ban from WP would be sensible, merely from activity on the Juice Plus article (that's what "on his activities there," means. OK?). Can you see that? It's not really that hard.

Ok, it's a shame, but nobody's perfect, but personal attacks (e.g. accusations of lying), claiming that you were never banned (a synonym for "blocked", i.e. another word with the same meaning as "banned"), stating categorically that I have a COI, all of this is inexcusable. I could however accuse you of lying about being banned from WP (for 6 months, for harrassment of a BLP editor, see your 'archive 1' at the top of this page), but I'll just ask others to draw their own conclusions about that from the evidence. If you have evidence that I have lied about anything, produce it. There is evidence of a glaring POV on your part where Juice Plus is concerned, e.g. when you referred to it as a "trivial and insignificant small-fry product whose market share would barely be a blip on the radar". Anyone who cares (and has the energy) can find at least one RfC about your behaviour on the Juice Plus article, where you have been asked to take a break from this article several times. In July 2007 you agreed to do this, but almost immediately carried on. When you were eventally blocked one of the comments was "This block was more than warranted - in fact, it was a long time in coming".

Ah well, what's the point. You don't / won't / can't see that you have done anything wrong. I've had enough. WP processes will eventually come to the same conclusion, but I'm not going to waste any more time and effort. Don't bother to reply; I shall just check from time to time that this thread isn't conveniently 'archived' too. --TraceyR (talk) 20:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Please do not try to avoid the consequences of your posting on my talk page, which resulted in the above response. It is revealing that you delete this thread here under pretext of harrassment. Please leave this here as a record. It is poor etiquette (to say the least) to post inflammatory remarks and accusations on my talk page and then remove my response from yours. If you have things you would rather not have others read here, that's your problem, not mine. --TraceyR (talk) 22:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)