Talk:Duchy of Saint Sava

title etc

This article looked like a WP:POV fork, so I merged the histories to make things clear. Whichever way it goes, the rules are clear - references, references, references. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the persistent edit war, and the article history, it looks pretty lopsided - the editor(s) with a Serb nationalist slant place too much emphasis on the Serb qualities of this domain, while the opposing Croat/Bosniak/whatever side basically dismisses that out of hand. We need an impartial observer to determine whether any of this is relevant. I will also remind that on this matter, admins have the option of blocking abuse with a single warning. Because Zoupan (talk · contribs) started this latest round of mess with what looked like a content fork, and is persisting without any discussion on talk so far, he's the (first) recipient of such a final warning. I advise the others to stop the simple reverting and explain their edits in detail here, or they will get the same treatment. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Ducatus Sancti Sabae = Duchy of Saint Sava. The fact that it is referred to as Duchy of Herzegovina (Duchy of the Duke's/Herzog's Land), is clearly part of the intro (if this is the problem with the Croat/Bosniak/whatever side). If you read the article there is none of "Serb nationalism", just compare the two revisions and their quality, and explain your dislikes of the content. So far the expanding of the article is good, I dont see any faults with the current sourced revision. --Zoupan (talk) 18:38, 3 April 2011 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.

Long overdue rename from previous move without solid source and basis in reality

Prior to his block, sock-puppeteer Zoupan/Ajdebre moved the article from its original title "Duchy of Herzegovina", and then did it a few more times, every time without discussion, hence prompting an edit-wars, because the moves were unwarranted and controversial as they were without basis in reality and in historical facts, or basis in modern solid mainstream scholarship. Editors in good standing and with established credibility, Joy, Surtiscna, Potocnik, Praxis, and Kebeta attempted to alleviate the damage but Zoupan/Ajdebre kept reverting them. However, I wonder if anyone who still agree with a mess Zoupan/Ajdebre was creating, really thought that this kind of misinterpretation of data, misrepresentation of historical reality, and misuse of sources, could really withstand scrutiny?

• First ref is 274 years old "Illyricum vetus & novum, siue, Historia regnorum Dalmatiae, Croatiae, Slavoniae, Bosniae, Serviae, atque Bulgariae", by Caroli Du Fresne domini Du Cange - can not be checked;
  

• ^{(Subsequently inserted)} - In above TP section, sock-master, Zoupan, claimed that "Ducatus Sancti Sabae -equals- Duchy of Saint Sava.". He refed this with Charles du Fresne's 300yr. old work, which really mention "Ducatus Sancti Sabae", but he lied about translation, which he claimed to be "Duchy of St.Sava", which simply is not true. "Ducatus Sancti Sabae" means, simply and literally, "Duke of Saint Sava".--౪ Santa ౪^99° 21:08, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

• Second is Nebojša Damnjanović's and Vladimir Merenik's "The first Serbian uprising and the restoration of the Bosniak[?!] state". Who are Damnjanović and Merenik, and where is published and where and how many time is cited/referenced this work of theirs and by whom - can not be checked;
  
• Third is Vaso Čubrilović who, beside being in snipet previews and can't be checked, isn't exactly a foremost authority on historical research and source of information, especially since we know, hopefully, how to use good mainstream contemporary, modern and post-modern, researchers which are in abundance in Serbo-Croatian.
  

Actually, with an exception of Zlatar and Fine, it is impossible to check these refs and its source texts. Du Cange is known as a pioneer in research of the Byzantine history but his time has long passed, Fine is still foremost authority for Balkans history, but the rest are obscure authors. There is one particularly weird reference - "The Danube-Aegean waterway project: a paper" (?!) And even stranger yet is this choice of sources, when we have a plenty of distinguished medievalists from all over former Yugoslavia, who comprehensively researched Herzeg Stjepan specifically! Why blocked sock-puppeteer Zoupan/Ajdebre moved this article and re-titled it in this way, how controversial was that move, most importantly, how strong are sources used to justify such a controversial move, how many of these sources is out there if I couldn't find any, how common is this name from the articles title (used for the land which was never a state to any degree(!) considering any era, as noted by Surtiscna in one of edit-summaries) in mainstream scholarship, especially contemporary to us?
Now, here's how Stjepan Vukčić, the guy who took the title Herzog of Saint Sava, styled himself in his charters, including period from time he titled himself that way until his death in 1466, three years after Bosnian Kingdom was annihilated - in full title and style between 1448-66 used interchangeably:

• "By the Grace of God Stjepan Herceg of Saint Sava, Lord of Hum and Bosnian Grand Duke, Knyaz of Drina and the rest"
• "By the Grace of God Herceg of Hum and Duke of Primorje, Bosnian Grand Duke, Knyaz of Drina and the rest"
  

Point to a part of Stjepan's title where the realm under his domain is mentioned - how he, Stjepan Vukčić, calls his realm!? I am certainly aware of the methodology or ways historians name former countries when and if they have first hand sources, when they can confirm how former rulers called their realms - they, historians, don't invent new ones (especially not fake ones), nor reinterpret old ones, they simply use the name as it was used when that realm existed, and hopefully left behind numerous clues in numerous written monuments. They also say that Herzeg Stjepan's is one of the medieval characters whose life is the best documented among pre-Ottoman South Slavic elites.
So, if anyone is really willing to contest this move, they should first accept that instead of presenting couple of obscure sources, expressing surprising and hence fringe view, only credible mainstream medievalists who researched, specifically, life and deeds of the Herzeg Stjepan should be used, such as probably the most distinguished and decorated historian and medievalist among Serbian scientists, Sima Ćirković, who is the one who made this statement of Herzeg's life being the best documented.(S.Ćirković, Herzeg Stjepan Vukčić-Kosača i njegovo doba, Intro/Uvod pp.1, 2)
Now, proper sources:

• Sima Ćirković and his Herzeg Stjepan Vukčić-Kosača i njegovo doba, and Istorija srednjovekovne bosanske države - for instance, the best insight on how Ćirković writes about our article subject is given on pp.336, 337 - there is no fabled land nor country, let alone "short-lived state", called "Duchy of St.Sava". Ćirković described Herzeg Stejpan while he was on his death-bed dictating his last words in 1466, and when he mentions his country Bosnia, three years after its annihilation. Nowhere in the book is mentioned such a "state" called Duchy of St.Sava;
• Marko Vego Postanak srednjovjekovne bosanske države - the most direct and most obvious description can be read in this one, pp.42-50, and last two para. on p.48 in particular;
• Pavao Anđelić's, on "Humska zemlja" in Studije o teritorijalno političkoj organizaciji srednjovjekovne Bosne, pp. 239, 240.
  

Sima Ćirković also commended authors Mavro Orbini i Jakov Lukarević as the first to devote considerable and deserved attention to Herzeg's life in their works. On the sidenote, another was Ljubo Jovanović, who calls Bosnian Kingdom a Serb kingdom, which was usual even expected for Serbian and Croatian authors of the age (19th c.), but not even he used this fake name, "Duchy of Saint Sava", for Hum/Herzegovina in his Stjepan Vukčić Kosača. He calls it "Humsko vojvodstvo" - actually, all proper medievalists, regardless of era, use these names: "Hum", "Humska zemlja", from 1450's "Hercegovina" ("Herzegovina").--౪ Santa ౪^99° 05:49, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Marko Vego's, Postanak srednjovjekovne bosanske države, Chapter: Humska zemlja, p.48

U povelji od 29. januara 1448. godine herceg Stjepan naziva se “božijom milošću herceg Humske zemlje i primorski vojvoda, veliki vojvoda bosanskog rusaga (države), knez drinski i još drugih krajeva“. U potvrdi hercega Stjepana od 5. jula 1450. godine (...) se oslovio: "Mi gospodin Stjepan, herceg od Svetoga Save, gospodar humski i veliki vojvoda rusaga bosanskoga, knez drinski i k tomu“. Herceg Stjepan s titulom "herceg od Svetoga Save (Ducatus s. Sabbe)“ podigao je svoj ugled i čitavog plemena Kosača unutar bosanske države i vani. Zato je sve okupljene zemlje u sklopu Hercegovine nazvao Hercegovinom. Tu se radilo o zemljama: Humskoj zemlji, Zagorju, oblasti Drini, Rudinama, Banjanima, Trebinju, Gornjoj i Donjoj Zeti, Polimlju, Dračevici, Krajini i Poljici kod Cetine. Nije isključeno da je naziv Hercegovina potekao i od drugih država. Prvi put se topografski naziv Hercegovina za oznaku svih zemalja hercega Stjepana Vukčića-Kosače pojavljuje na historijskoj pozornici 1. februara 1454. go- dine u pismu osmanskog komandanta Esebega iz Skoplja. Tako se pojam Humska zemlja postepeno gubi da ustupi mjesto novom imenu zemlje hercega Stjepana — Hercegovini.

--౪ Santa ౪^99° 05:49, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Zachlumia

Noticing the recent rename, I had a look, and it struck me - why are we not linking Zachlumia early in this article? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:54, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Of course, it should be part of the History section, first paragraph if not entire sub-section, albeit small but decently elaborated. It was precluding political reality, which existed on the ground prior to Stjepan II acquisition of entire region in 1326, roughly, with Zahumlje, Travunija, Primorije and Narenta, which will be placed under Kosača family over-lordship - constitution of Hum marked a rise of that family to prominence. That's a necessary prehistory of Humska zemlja. However, I have battled with the proper title, and decided to use Serbo-Croatian name as it is the only proper name used academically. Meanwhile, significant text changes will have to wait - I have only as much time to make these bit-by-bit improvements, for the time being. Unless someone jumps on board and helps.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 05:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Possible vandalism. The reasons for removing the text are probably chauvinistic. Relevant historical sources and literature are listed. With a few clicks, the correctness of the data can be checked. If there is any objection, write it and we will discuss it and I will also quote other relevant titles if necessary.

The article "Humska zemlja" and "Duchy of St. Sava" should be separated. Hum is a historical area from 7 -14 centuries and with special state traditions (up to the middle of 14 centuries as part of Raska) while Duchy of Saint Sava /Herzegovina Svetoga Save/Ducatus Sancti Sabe) has been the area and state of Kosača noble family in 15th century. Even in a geographical sense there is a difference between this the two terms.

This is just a very short selection from the bibliography.

Vogel, Walther (2015). Dan neue Europa und seine historisch-geografischen Grudlagen (jezik: njemački). Paderborn: Salzwasser Verlag GmbH. ISBN 978-3-84607-843-3. p 336,

Lejla Nakas, Konkordancijski Rjecnik Cirilskih Povelja Srednjovjekovne Bosne p 42-49, p 113, 114, 118-125, 129-132, 135-139 https://www.academia.edu/35567380/Konkordancijski_rjecnik_cirilskih_povelja_srednjovjekovne_Bosne ,

Hösch, Edgar (2018). Geschichte der Balkanländer; Von der Frühzeit bis zur Gegenwart (jezik: njemački). München: C. H. Beck. ISBN 978-3-406-57299-9. p 75, The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest p 578

Caroli Du Fresne domini Du Cange Illyricum vetus & novum, siue, Historia regnorum Dalmatiae, Croatiae, Slavoniae, Bosniae, Serviae, atque Bulgariae p 126 Il Regno de gli Slavi by Mavro Orbini https://books.google.ba/books?id=Fx3OntcdUkQC&redir_esc=y, Mavro Orbini, Kraljevstvo Slovena, p 439-447

Moravcsik, Gyula, ed. (1967) [1949]. Constantine Porphyrogenitus: De Administrando Imperio (2nd revised ed.). Washington D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Center for Byzantine Studies. ISBN 9780884020219. chapter 32-33

Fine, John V. A. Jr. (1991) [1983]. The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century. Ann Arbor, Michigan: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-08149-7., pp 49-59, pp 141, pp 159-160, pp 171-179, pp 180, pp 185-186, pp 202-208, pp 219, pp 291

Fine, John Van Antwerp (1994) [1987]. The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest. Ann Arbor, Michigan: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-08260-4. pp 17-21, pp 142-149, pp 275-285, pp 322-325, 99 368-370, pp 384-395, pp 408-414, pp 453-488, pp 491-492,pp 498, pp 516, pp 531-534, pp 551-552, pp 555, pp 560, pp 577-590, pp 599, pp 611

Mak Dizdar, Stari Bosanski tekstovi pp 112 http://pdfknjige.net/knjiga.php?pdf=stari-bosanski-tekstovi

Momčilo Spremić, Balkanski vazali kralja Alfonsa Aragonskog, Prekinut uspon, Beograd 2005, pp. 355–358