Talk:College

This page needs to be cleaned-up and/or split.

This article hugely overcomplicates the subject and needs rectification. As stated in section 6, there is just too much detail. Personally, I would go as far as saying that this should just be a disambiguation page linking to articles for the various meanings of the word. As it currently stands, this article is of no use to anyone who wants to understand the differences in usage of the word across the world.

I think there are a number of different options for this page:

• Make it a disambiguation page to articles dealing with each meaning of the word.
• Make it so it is only about undergraduate colleges/universities in the USA, with a link to a disambig page for other meanings.
• Make it so it is about all meanings except for undergraduate colleges/universities, with a link saying 'For undergraduate instituions, see university', and extend the university article.

Abc30 19:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this page should focus on the old college-within-a-university type of institution (the Paris and Oxbridge type), as that is the origin of the other meanings. The other types of colleges could be given their historical background here but expanded on other pages. (I also think this discussion should be moved back to the bottom of the page.) up◦land 14:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

(I moved it to the top of the page because it was going lost and unnoticed at the bottom, and it was perhaps unclear as to what the template messages referred to. I agree it should be at the bottom, but perhaps it can remain here until a decision on this matter is reached.)Abc30 16:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I just saw the page for the first time, and I thought it was excellent as is, and quickly answered my questions. If any areas need more detail, an article in that area can be added. No need for a disambiguation page, and certainly no need to focus on a particular country. Nfitz 16:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Lifestyle

We all know the only reason for going to college are frat houses. If you sigh up be prepared for boobs and boose 24/7.

Principle Kewin.

I suppose the answer is already in the article. :P Wshun

I actually couldn't find it and still can't. You got to understand that it is not that obvious to people who have grown up with a completely different education system. Hehe I remember when a German born student tried to explain how the German educational system worked in a class. Noone understood what he was talking about and one hour later he gave up. :-) BL 00:09, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What kind of answer do you want? In USA, all universities and some senior high schools are colleges; In Canada, colleges are somewhat between high school and universities. A college grants diplomas or it acts as a gateway to university. In UK and HK, "college" just means "educational institution" and so it is meaningless to ask how it relates to the education system. -wshun 00:30, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

In case someone else is reading this discussion and trying to make sense of it: right now in the US, a lot of colleges are changing their names to "University" because it sounds more "prestigious". At the same time, certain colleges retain the term "College" to show that they don't need to make themselves sound more prestigious. The meaning, however, is the not really any different - a college generally only offers undergraduate degrees, but they are identical in value to the undergraduate degrees (Bachelor's degrees) offered at a university (and I don't know about other countries, but they are certainly the same as similiar degrees in Canada). College is absolutely not easier than university in the US - actually, a lot of the time, a small, selective college will have more difficult classes than a large university. Aranel 02:43, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Just for the record, I think there is nothing wrong with the fact that this article is (still) basically "the usage of college in each dialect of English language" (as pointed out at the top of this page), since it acts as a kind of disambiguation, both culturally and linguistically, that other articles can refer to. - IMSoP 13:12, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

In topics with a historical vector to them, an alphabetical order isn't the most useful. I'm rearranging the article the better to show how the term evolved. I realize that this could perhaps seem UK/US-centric; but I don't see how this can be avoided. Doops 04:36, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

India

With all due respect if the only thing that can be written under this heading is "University is generally used." then it might as well be deleted, or be placed under a more relevant heading. Djegan 21:54, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Cultural bias

It seems that at many points in this article a non-US author has inserted his views about the American system into the article. In the contrast section between the two terms the writer seems to have a rather down-the-nose look at American colleges and universities. I don't see any need for making one seem better than another. Bias shouldn't be a part of the Wikipedia. Does anyone else read this as biased? Scm83x 06:57, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, when the whole purpose of a paragraph is to contrast two different points of view, then we can't really submerge those points of view altogether! But perhaps you're right and that section sounds a little judgemental; if I get the chance I'll try rewriting it. At any rate, though, I just wanted to let you know that, in fact, I was that paragraph's original author — and not only am I American myself, but I also vastly prefer the US educational system; I certainly wasn't looking down my nose when I was writing the ¶. I've just always found that few people in the rest of the world really understand how our system works — and, of course, few Americans understand how the rest of the world's does either. Doops 07:40, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Great; appreciate it. Also, the line that states that American students spend much of their time separated from their major field of study is not exactly true in my experience. While perhaps the first two years may have some more general courses, the second two years are certainly dedicated to the major field. It seems that the modifier 'most' is a little too much, at least in my experience at The University of Texas at Austin. Scm83x 15:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• It doesn't seem culturally biased to me. Admittedly i am British (and proud of it!), but it seems to do the job. Where i do object is the fact that it seems to be more about the entymology of the term, but fails to make this explicit in the introduction. Pydos 13:31, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

• I don't see how Singapore falls into the English speaking world.And so do India.Their rate of speaking in english are no better than the countries listed in the non-english speaking section.Perhaps they consider themselves men of the west.

Poll on University Naming Conventions

A new survey has been created to assess consensus with respect to university naming conventions, specifically regarding the usage of terms like "University of Texas" vs. "University of Texas at Austin". The poll addresses this issue both in the specific case of the "University of Maryland" and proposes an amendment to Wikipedia:Naming conventions which could impact a large number of additional pages. It doesn't directly impact this page, but I figure that people editting here may be interested in the topic. Dragons flight 17:52, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

Colleges in UK

2 points:

• Sixth Form Colleges are AFTER Secondary Education. Secondary Schools (11-16 usually) are compulsory, 6th form (usually 16-18) is not.

• A primary school near to me (4-11 year olds), is "Burwell Village College (Primary)", and the local secondary schools are all named similarly: Soham Village College, Bottisham Village College, Witchford Village College.

Just thought I'd mention it - JVG 06:18, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

You wait JVG, it gets better...what about the Yale College Wrexham vs Yale University wrangle? sheer chaos Pydos 13:34, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Isn't Yale university in the USA?

Basically, any academic institution of any level in the UK could have "college" within its name... the Beechurst section of Soham Village College was originally a grammar school by the way - JVG 17:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

• Yup. Hence my point about the lawsuit (and why i added the link to Yale College Wrexham). Good point about the use of 'college' as a title - by the strictest etymology it can work (co - leg ...with laws...sounds like a school to me!) Pydos 09:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Talk about too much detail...

This article is too detailed, in a "can't see the woods for the trees" manner. *Why* are there individual sections for British universities? They should be mentioned if notable, but an article on "colleges" should *not* start going into detail about specific colleges unless they're very special.

The whole thing is unnecessarily detailed full-stop. I don't see how a general article about the nature of "college" needs to be anything more than half its current length at the very most. I'm sure if someone had the time, they'd find out that much of the information was similar across multiple entries and consolidate it. Wish people would do that in the first place...

Fourohfour 12:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Not only are there to many trees to see the wood; there is also the problem that the article is largely an extended dicdef, discussing the use of the word "college" rather than colleges as a type of institution (or types of institutions) in a historical perspective. Interestingly, Paris isn't mentioned once in the article, even though the history of colleges begins there. I'll try to add a little more history to this article. Maybe we can move some stuff to separate articles on colleges in the UK and the US. up◦land 15:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Definition from 1913 Webster's

My dictionary tooltip extension for Firefox gives me this definition from Webster's for "College":

College \Col"lege\, n. [F. coll[`e]ge, L. collegium, fr. collega colleague. See Colleague.]

1. A collection, body, or society of persons engaged in common pursuits, or having common duties and interests, and sometimes, by charter, peculiar rights and privileges; as, a college of heralds; a college of electors; a college of bishops. [1913 Webster]

Why do I think I should mention this: I think its useful since it doesn't define "college" = educational institution, but gives the word the wide, general meaning. Concerns about Wiktionary aside, I think it will allow people to know where the word came from.

Maybe if someone could work this in (preferably near the top) it could be useful. Then again, I could be bold and do it myself, but seeing from the above discussion, I think I'd rather hold off and let someone else do it!

Greentubing 09:06, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Um, the article already begins by noting this fact. But I'll add examples to make it clearer. Doops | talk 06:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Where's sources?

Sources? You gotta be kidding me. This is not an academic historical or scientific theory. Its fact. What are you going to source, the Governments education out lines? This article is being built on the experience of many individuals, hence the discussions! Tourskin.

Canadian professors

The Canadian section of the article says that "college professor" is less prestigious than "university professor". I think this is a bit confused. A professor is a professor. However, a college instructor is not a college professor or university professor. Instructors play a different role. Colleges do not award the title of professor to instructors. Only professors (who are experts in their fields, mentor students, do research, etc) are named professors. People who specialize in teaching are called instructors or lecturers. I think perhaps this section should be removed, since it's confusing issues.--Westendgirl 19:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Eroneous Information

In this article it claims that some of the most prestigous colleges in The United States of America retain the the title college just for historical reasons but offer a variety of higher degrees (graduate degrees). This is true for all the examples they list except for one, Wellesley College. This school offers only bachelor's degrees and is considered a liberal arts college. I will remove this school off the list.

Suggestion -- education timeline

I think it would be useful to include an illustration of the typical educational timeline in the related articles. I'm thinking about a horizontal bar, marked with "kindergarden", "primary school", etc along its width, including high-level education such as Master's Degrees, PhDs and the such, and color-coded as to identify the current topic, and maybe also the chronologically neighouring ones. I feel that would be the best illustration of the concept -- and it would definitely help non-native English speakers, such as myself, who are typically pretty confused about your understanding of "college" versus university/high school.

What do others think?

--Gutza ^{T T+} 04:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

British and American usage contrasted

I think this is a good section to have but...

Two outstanding features of the American version are universality and breadth:

two points, is outstanding meaning superior or just contrasting? Also in a section titled British and American usage contrasted is this implying the British system has no universality or breadth? This isn't a contrast!

Nearly half of all Americans attend at least one year of "college", so the word is more natural, less remarkable, than "university" might sound abroad.

44% of people attend university in the UK so I am not sure about this point.

At the more academic end of the scale, on the other hand, many American college students (especially at the most elite institutions) see "college" as a time of intellectual exploration which can be accomplished free from any need to prepare for the future,

Again if this is contrasting it appears to mean that in the UK this isn't true, I hope it is true in both!

Hence "college" is less dryly academic than "university" might sound abroad.

POV, uni is used in the UK without meaning dryly academic.

Furthermore, a great many students in American universities and colleges live either in institution-run dormitories or in neighborhoods dominated by student apartments. Hence the college years often involve a distinct kind of living arrangement between the family home and the first adult apartment.

Same in UK.

I posting this here as I feel that it might be contentious if I just re-write this and I would like a US opinion on it first. Also I think that all the UK college info should be in one paragraph and will also change that unless there are objections. Rex the first ^{talk | contribs} 23:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree. The 'universality' of college/university experience is certainly not anything even near unique to 'the American system' (51.5% of school leavers in NZ move to tertiary education immediately), not is the 'breadth of study'. As for "college" as a phase in life between childhood and adulthood has become very important culturally in America, perhaps more so than in the rest of the world. and The American system [...] forces much less specialization and focus than is common in the rest of the world.? Unsourced POV, probably not true and almost certainly unverifiable anyway. --Dom 12:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

If you read through this discussion from the top, you'll see that we've all been wrestling with mutual incomprehension from the outset. I'm an American, and you certainly have my blessing to go ahead with a rewrite. -- Mwanner | Talk 13:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing incorrect about calling a university education "college" in the U.S. It is NOT colloquial, only different terminology. The tone as written now is both POV and somewhat disparaging of the U.S.--for no good reason.--Buckboard 07:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not from the US and did not write that section so be bold and change it! I would point out that is seems that your institutions are members of Association of American Universities and I could not find many uses of college when referring to the university name. Rex the first ^{talk | contribs} 11:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

India formatting

Looks like someone has messed up the section "The rest of the English-speaking world" and put Singapore and NZ under India?

Licensed to Go to College

As the students get an excellent education, college is licensed for adults ONLY, and minors are NOT allowed to start college yet. --PJ Pete (posted 01:38, 2 September 2006)

What? Plenty of people start college before they're 18 (in the U.S., where the age of majority is 18). /blahedo (t) 15:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Skipping a grade is difficult, and you need to be smart enough to do it, but commonly when people skip a grade, school will be a lot harder for them. --PJ Pete

Many people I know, both friends that I had in highschool and friends that I have here at my college, are or were taking college classes before finishing their secondary education. Nyttend 19:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Etymology incorrect

Although I like the given etymology, I believe it is wrong. It states, "con-, 'together' + leg-, 'law'" as the origin. Combining several sources, I have found the origin to be ME < OFr collége < L collegium "community, society, guild," members of which are collegae, sing. collega "colleague" < com- "with" + leg, stem of legare "to choose, depute, send as emissary, bequeath." Can someone with a greater linguistic background either back me up or disagree? 74.32.149.204 02:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Magnesian Phoenix