Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American Party of Labor (2nd nomination): Difference between revisions

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American Party of Labor

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This article concerns a tiny political party, for which the only sources given are outlets directly affiliated with the party and two personal blogs. Searching for additional information, I was only able to find the party's official website, a facebook page with around 4,200 followers, a twitter account with 1497 followers, a student newspaper article from 2016 and a few mentions of the wikipedia article itself. Other than that, nothing.

It appears that the overwhelming majority of attention to this party comes from the wikipedia article itself rather than any actions taken by the party, with the page receiving an average of 2330 monthly pageviews in the past year

In light of all of this, I do not believe this meets notability guidelines.

Thereppy (talk) 23:47, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 01:01, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 01:01, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak~~ Keep For a small Communist/Hoxhaist party, its article is better sourced than those of similar organizations. I count five not affiliated with the party itself: [1][2][3][4][5]. EDIT: revising vote based on Unrequestedsillything's observations below. I failed to consider the APL's membership with the ICMLPO, which further establishes notability.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 01:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Of the five pieces you linked, a potential case for notability can made with the first article, which is a full length interview conducted by Evrensel Daily. This coverage is undoubtedly independent and significant, but reliability is harder to assess. The English language site does not give information on editorial standards (or even give the name of the interviewer(s)!), and as I can not read Turkish, I can't determine if this information is available on its parent site either. That said, if this wiki article is to be believed (I can't assess the reliability of the Turkish language source this table is based on), Evrensel's circulation within Turkey is substantial: Over 2% that of Turkey's largest daily newspaper, which is very impressive for a Marxist-Leninist newspaper in a country with negligible Marxist-Leninist political popularity or influence. If reliability can be established, it makes a solid case against deletion. However, the other four pieces linked definitely cannot be used to describe the American Party of Labor as notable. The Worker's World article (2nd link) does not offer significant coverage, listing it in a single sentence alongside several other groups as being involved in a small street protest (for which I could find no other news coverage). 'Fight Back! News' (3rd link) is an online newspaper, but I can find no mention of any editorial policies on the site, nor anything else to assess the reliability of its coverage. Either way, its coverage of the American Party of Labor is not significant, consisting of a one-sentence mention of the group as one of three groups that organized a counter-protest which, like the protest described in the Worker's World article, is apparently not reported on by any other sources. The Spanish-language source (4th link) is a translation of [this article] published by the American Party of Labor itself while the 'New Jersey Anti-War Agenda' (5th link) is a personal blog. Thereppy (talk) 22:49, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment I was incorrect about the fourth source, but it appears even though it was originally published by the APL, it was subsequently translated and republished by a third party. So I believe my original point still stands: it is better sourced than other Wikipedia pages for smaller communist parties. At least one strong source with some weaker sources, along with their membership with the ICMLPO that Unrequestedsillything mentioned below, establishes notability IMO.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I've added a source from the National Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression, a fairly large national organization—the party in question signed the refounding document. Jpalameda1865 (talk) 22:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As C.J. Griffin has pointed out, it already has more independent sources than similar pages which have been deemed notable. Its official status with the ICMLPO, another notable organization, also helps here. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 23:28, 4 December 2021 (UTC) — Unrequestedsillything (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- Comment Thank you for mentioning this. I have revised my vote accordingly.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Inherited notability isn't an argument. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 23:30, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per C.J. Griffin. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:34, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The article is adequately sourced. Deletion nomination seems frivolous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Visigoth500 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 6 December 2021 (UTC) — Visigoth500 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: More discussion or finding of sources. Thereppy makes a good rebuttal of the sources, which have not been answered.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 00:31, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 06:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment How often is this going to be re-listed? The majority of comments are "Keep," and as has been noted several times, it is better sourced than other similar articles. Visigoth500 (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Visigoth500: A quorum is usually seeked when an item is relisted. The AfD would be treated as an expired PROD. – The Grid (talk) 23:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The keep !voters are making questionable non-policy based arguments. You can't just say "For a small Communist/Hoxhaist party, its article is better sourced than those of similar organizations."; that's blatantly WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. None of the sources CJ Griffin mentioned satisfy WP:SIRS. The first is an interview with one of the members by a fellow traveller; comprised mostly of the interview itself. This doesn't qualify as "completely independent" nor is it a secondary source. The second and third sources are single-sentence mentions. The fourth and fifth sources are fucking blogspot pages. It's shocking Visigoth500 accuses the nom of "frivolous" behaviour when the !voters here are ignoring policy to push what is essentially socialist fancruft/spam onto this encyclopedia.

Unrequestedsillything's argument is laughable. It's just a rehashing of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, that this article has "more sources" and should be kept. They ignore the garbage quality of said sources and then goes onto say that this organization inherits notability because it's a part of the larger organization. WP:NORG very explicitly says in WP:INHERITORG that organizations do not inherit notability from being part of or affiliated with a larger organization. Then the other two !votes are just "per nom" trash. I can see why this was relisted twice; the "keep" arguments are meme-tier and Thereppy is right. This party is non-notable.

I would ask the closing admin here to do what we always do for non-notable organizations whose fans show up to !vote keep while disregarding our notability policies. Close as "delete", because AfD is WP:NOTAVOTE. This ~~tankie~~ stalinist fanclub of an Albanian dictator is non-notable and should be treated as such, regardless of the stature of the people !voting keep. I'm going to go post this on WP:Wikiproject Politics to see if we can get some more people. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 23:48, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "This tankie fanclub of an Albanian dictator" -- Politically motivated bias Visigoth500 (talk) 00:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It should be firstly noted that "fellow travelers" are not against policy, especially considering in the interview it isn't the APL recursively reporting on itself, but rather an outside source doing so. In addition, I have also added a source documenting the actions of the party. Notably they don't even seem to be a "fellow traveler", or associated with the party after a cursory glance.AxderWraith Crimson (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment It should be also noted that the new source added is from Rutger's official student newspaper. Student newspapers, while not as desirable for notability as mainstream media, can sometimes be considered reliable enough depending on how well established they are. Given that The Daily Targum is the official newspaper of a major university, and even has its own Wikipedia article, there is arguably a case here. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 09:12, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you're just ignoring SIRS, you're ignoring NORG, and you're ignoring pretty much all of our global consensus. The interview is not completely independent or a secondary source. You're deliberately ignoring our policies to push an obviously non notable fanclub onto this encyclopedia. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 17:06, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "fanclub" -- Again, you are demonstrating your own bias and prejudice. Perhaps this encyclopedia would benefit from less snide remarks and vulgar language ("fucking blogspot") and more professionalism. If you deem the article to not be notable, fine that is your right; but snark, attitude and vulgarity are not helpful.Visigoth500 (talk) 18:10, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A random Blogger/blogspot blog is not a reliable source. It's ludicrous that people are saying that it is. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources lists 21 different discussions in which editors have said that blogspot is generally unreliable as a WP:Self published source. Deeming it reliable here would be equivalent to just ignoring pretty much the endless discussions among editors for years that no, blogspot sources are not reliable and cannot be used to establish notability. It's illogical and flies in the face of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS.

And yes, I'm calling this political party a fanclub. On a fundamental level, political parties are fan clubs of ideologies and ideologues. If we treat this entity like any other fan club (which we judge by quality sourcing regardless of how much turnout their fans provide) rather than discussing its political importance in the realm of communist parties, it becomes clear what needs to be done with this page. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:24, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You are quite correct that "whataboutism" is a not response to notability. The article must stand or fall on it's own merits. However, the question of "selective enforcement has been raised and is a valid concern. Visigoth500 (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Multiple new and indendent, notable sources with their own pages have been added to the sources with new information elucidating the activity of this party with again, its own independent source that in no way violates policy. As seen with the comments above, the repetitive motion to delete this page is politically motivated, not honestly founded in the desires to strengthen content on wikipedia. On those grounds alone, on top of the new sources, of their validity, there is no reason this idea of deletion should be at all entertained, once again.— Evann31 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 16:59, 15 December 2021 (UTC).[reply]
- Comment This is the first (and thusfar only) contribution to Wikipedia made by this account. I struggle to believe this is anything but either canvassing or sockpuppetry. Thereppy (talk) 22:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Irrelevant. What matters are the sources, not who provides them.Visigoth500 (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Going to start an SPI. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:32, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Please do. A brand new account making arguments identical (nearly verbatim) to a user in a heated deletion discussion sends off way too many alarm bells, especially when that user is so quick to defend the new account. Thereppy (talk) 23:24, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Thereppy: The checkuser at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Unrequestedsillything says that Unrequestedsillything, Evann31, AxderWraith Crimson are unrelated in terms of IPs, and there's not that much evidence aside from that. It'd be inappropriate at this post to continue discussing alleged socking here. I'm leaving this note here so it's clear what happened on SPI case given that the accusation was also made here. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 04:04, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Here's a WP:SIRS table that examines every source currently included in the article. None of the sources currently satisfy WP:SIRS despite the WP:SPAs showing up in droves claiming that they do. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:49, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The daily Targum article clearly fits the criteria of " significant coverage in a reliable secondary source that is independent of the subject. "

comment{{reply to|Chess}}

In regard specifically to the daily Targum article; Significant: The entire article is about an event organized and operated by the American Party of Labor and its student wing. It is clearly significant coverage.

Reliable: The daily Targum has won the Columbia Scholastic Press Association's Gold Crown Award multiple times, it established a separate publishing company to ensure independent coverage from Rutgers. It also has its own wikipedia page. If ever a student newspaper is reliable it is now.

Secondary: While there are brief snippets and direct quotes from members, the author reports on the protest as well as giving additional context with regards to the Dakota Access pipeline in general as well as other protests regarding the pipeline. This is a secondary source with regards to the Party

Independent: The daily Targum has no association with the American party of labor nor does the author as far as I can tell. There is no reason to believe this journalism isn't independent of the American Party of Labor.AxderWraith Crimson (talk) 03:02, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You and Visigoth500 keep saying that the "All Marxist-Leninist Union" is the APL's "student wing", yet I'm not really seeing a source on that. It's not mentioned in any of the links you've posted and Binging for "All Marxist-Leninist Union rutgers" provides nothing. Even if it is true, it's not relevant since WP:INHERITORG says that entities do not "inherit" notability if a sub-entity or parent entity is notable. Even if the AMLU is notable due to coverage in that article (which I doubt it is), that does not mean that the APL is notable. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 03:10, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source	Independent?	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
Source assessment table: prepared by User:Chess
Our history	Published by the party itself	~ A WP:Self published source, but affiliated with the party and so may qualify under WP:ABOUTSELF		✘ No
"American Party of Labor (U.S.)"		It's a self published blog that covers flags in the world		✘ No
"Here in the very belly of imperialism, you have comrades:' Alfonso Casal, National Spokesperson for the American Party of Labor, spoke to Evrensel about the APL and the U.S. policies"	Not independent, is mostly an interview with a spokesperson for the party and the vast majority of the content is provided by the interviewee. Interviews are not considered to be independent sources. Additionally, per WP:NORG, "interviews with executives" are not considered secondary sources and do not satisfy WP:SIRS.	? Unsure of the reliability of Evrensel		✘ No
The American Party of Labor Has Been Granted Observer Status in the International Conference of Marxist-Leninist Parties and Organizations	Not independent as it's published by the party newspaper	~ See WP:ABOUTSELF	WP:ROUTINE coverage of it joining a larger organization	✘ No
"Chicago protesters say ‘No’ to Greek fascists"		? Highly biased source from within the movement	Mentions the American Party of Labor in a list of organizations that participated at this rally. No actual coverage of the party.	✘ No
"Chicago forum on U.S. role in Ukraine: fascists attempt disruption"		? Highly biased source from within the movement	Briefly mentions a speaker's affiliation to the American Party of Labor. Single sentence.	✘ No
"Support grows for “Dump Trump” protest planned for day one of Republican National Convention"		? Highly biased source from within the movement	Briefly mentions the party in a listing of attendees at the rally.	✘ No
"Communist group at Rutgers protests Standing Rock with Brower rally"		? Student newspaper	Mentions the party in the first paragraph, but mostly covers the "All Marxists-Leninists Union" on campus. Final section covers a speaker affiliated with the party but not the party itself.	✘ No Comment The All Marxist-Leninist Union IS the APL student wing at Rutgers.Visigoth500 (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"[PARTIDO ESTADOUNIDENSE DEL TRABAJO] El ascenso del neofascismo americano: Apuntes sobre la presidencia de Donald Trump."	? Unclear why "Partido Estadounidense del Trabajo" (which means "American Party of Labor") is bracketed. Perhaps the author is saying that is the source for the post? Site is the official blog of the Marxist–Leninist Communist Party of Ecuador, see: [6] That party belongs to the same umbrella org (ICMLPO (US) as the APL.	Self published blog.	Does not actually cover the party in the text of the blog post.	✘ No
"[PARTIDO ESTADOUNIDENSE DEL TRABAJO] El legado de Karl Marx en la revitalización del movimiento obrero estadounidense"	? Unclear why "Partido Estadounidense del Trabajo" (which means "American Party of Labor") is bracketed. Same issue as previous source. Appears to be the same self published blog as the previous and has the same issues of affiliation	Self published blog.	? Dead link	✘ No
"Revolution is the Solution: Presentation of the American Party of Labor to the 23rd Seminar on the Problems of the Revolution in Latin America"	Party newspaper of the APL	~ Possibly under WP:ABOUTSELF	Doesn't actually cover the party itself	✘ No
"Booker on Blast: Hands Off Venezuela"		Some random person's blog. Is obviously a WP:Self published source.	Briefly mentions a person affiliated with the party and does not cover the party in a significant manner.	✘ No
https://naarpr.org/updates/call-to-refound/ "Call to Refound the National Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression"]	~ Petition signed by the APL	It's a WP:Self published source and isn't reliable since it isn't published by the APL	value not understood The extent of the sources coverage of the APL is that the APL signed this petition.	✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

Delete User:Chess' analysis is convincing, there is nothing that meets WP:RS. --RaiderAspect (talk) 03:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Now there are accusations of sock puppetry, I created this account specifically to challenge the baseless and desperate attempts to repress this party and the desperation, beyond hiding behind subjectivity of "notability" of direct and independent sources, they now accuse the multitude of opponents, Axder Wraith, Leif and myself, who knows who else of not even existing!

Revision as of 04:04, 16 December 2021 edit Chess (talk \| contribs) Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers 10,663 edits →‎American Party of Labor: Reply Tag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 05:04, 16 December 2021 edit undo Evann31 (talk \| contribs) 5 edits →‎American Party of Labor Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Next edit →
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	*'''Delete''' [[User:Chess]]' analysis is convincing, there is nothing that meets [[WP:RS]]. --[[User:RaiderAspect\|RaiderAspect]] ([[User talk:RaiderAspect\|talk]]) 03:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)		*'''Delete''' [[User:Chess]]' analysis is convincing, there is nothing that meets [[WP:RS]]. --[[User:RaiderAspect\|RaiderAspect]] ([[User talk:RaiderAspect\|talk]]) 03:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

			*'''Comment''' Now there are accusations of sock puppetry, I created this account specifically to challenge the baseless and desperate attempts to repress this party and the desperation, beyond hiding behind subjectivity of "notability" of direct and independent sources, they now accuse the multitude of opponents, Axder Wraith, Leif and myself, who knows who else of not even existing!