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Amanda Dennis (soccer)

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Footballer who played 1 game at the senior level before announcing her retirement. Barely scrapes through NFOOTY, completely fails GNG. BlameRuiner (talk) 08:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Agree with nomination. Nowhere near to satisfying WP:GNG MaskedSinger (talk) 09:34, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Clearly passes WP:NFOOTY. Seany91 (talk) 10:33, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:41, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:41, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:41, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:41, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:44, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete We need to be reasonable in our inclusion criteria. With actors and actresses we require "multiple" "signifiacnt" roles in "Notable" productions. There is no reason we should allow just one game to make a sportperson notable. We should use reason in evaluating articles, and any reasonable standard says delete articles in most cases on people who made just one top level game.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:29, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak delete~~ (Vote struck, view changed) It seems like more and more as of late we have people with 1 appearance being nominated who are ostensibly notable under WP:NFOOTY per Players who have played, and managers who have managed, in a competitive game between two teams from fully professional leagues will generally be regarded as notable, which has become an increasingly problematic criterion. It seems to make sense for someone who is still a current footballer, but for retired players, it could be a bit much to have an article for anyone who has ever played in a match between two fully professional teams as that is tens-of-thousands of people. I think that the main argument I have for deletion here is lack of chance for expansion with her retirement with no indication of coming out of retirement. If she does come out of retirement, article could always be retrieved via WP:REFUND, but without any overtures of her coming out of retirement, I have to vote delete. snood1205 15:13, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: AfD is not the appropriate place to be WP:LAWYERING over a policy like WP:NFOOTY or randomly making up new interpretations like current vs. retired players. Especially concerning female footballers, we've seen hundreds of AfDs where broso editors argued strongly for NFOOTY as the primary reason for deletion; now here's a case where the subject clearly and unequivocally passes NFOOTY, and suddenly the wikilawyering starts. I'm personally all for re-evaluating NFOOTY and many woso editors have been arguing for precisely that to no avail, but I'll say here what woso editors have been told many times: until there is consensus for changing it, NFOOTY should be applied as it is written. Seany91 (talk) 15:28, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I would like to clarify that I am not denying that the person meets notability per WP:NFOOTY; however, one who meets a WP:SNG must eventually meet WP:GNG and with her being a modern-era, retired player, it is just incredibly unlikely that despite meeting a WP:SNG she will eventually come to meet WP:GNG. I do see how my comment can be WP:LAWYERING, but my comment re retired and current players is more with regards to how WP:NFOOTY eventually would translate into WP:GNG. The difference being with a retired player, especially a recently retired player, if they do not currently meet WP:GNG it is very unlikely they will in the future. My arguments for this largely comes from other AfDs I have participated in recently where just passing WP:NFOOTY does not seem to have been enough to keep, for example: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edvin Dahlqvist or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Sørensen (footballer, born 1989). I'm more just trying to find where WP:NFOOTY is sufficient versus where WP:GNG is required. snood1205 15:43, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I appreciate the explanation and my comment was not directed towards you personally. Nonetheless, my point remains that your wondering-out-loud should be reserved for WT:NFOOTY. As for NFOOTY vs. GNG, here's my personal observation: even leaving aside that NFOOTY is already systematically biased against female footballers, many editors still make their own NFOOTY vs. GNG distinction in a biased way against female footballers. Seany91 (talk) 15:54, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - No-one ever tries to delete women's sports articles on here and says: "I'm a bigoted incel. I'm angry at the world because I have a micropenis and/or my mom never cuddled me enough. So I punch down at female athletes on Wikipedia." Although I suspect oftentimes that's clearly the subtext. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 20:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Bring back Daz Sampson: does this continued incivility seriously need to be taken to WP:ANI again? Jay eyem (talk) 04:35, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I am unable to view this article but it looks like it may have SIGCOV. Can anyone confirm? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:25, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @GiantSnowman: ;) Seany91 (talk) 09:35, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - It appears to be a fairly in-depth interview of the subject at hand done by a student newspaper. I have to say I am a little concerned that the sourcing on the article will be a bit thin (I agree with John Pack Lambert's concerns), but this piece definitely constitutes WP:SIGCOV imo. ~~Also @Seany91: please sign your comments and don't taunt another editor in the future, that's not civil or productive to discussion~~. Jay eyem (talk) 23:50, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Jay eyem: GS asked editors to ping him if sources are found, so I did. Please withdraw your unfounded accusation of incivility, thanks. Seany91 (talk) 09:35, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - It is not unfounded. It is quite literally the definition of WP:IUC 2a and the linked definition at wiktionary. Unless you think it is normal to respond to people using mocking emoticons for some reason, I see no reason to withdraw that. Also, I'd appreciate an explanation of what "broso" is as well, because there is no WP:BROSO page and the only link besides this page goes to Birgit Brosø and I suspect that is not that to which you were referring. It could come across as a portmanteau of "BRO" and "SOccer" so I just wanted some clarification there. Jay eyem (talk) 16:06, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        @Jay eyem: An important cornerstone of the policy you quoted is "assume good faith." I've laid out my explanation, and with the caveat that interpreting personal communication style on a written message board is always a crapshoot, I must say the emoticon is not mocking in any way from my POV. If you cannot assume good faith from me and chose to interpret that as mocking or taunting, that's your choice. Your guess regarding the portmanteau is correct, however ;) Seany91 (talk) 14:34, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        It is precisely that portmanteau which makes it difficult to assume good faith. Instead of assuming good faith on behalf of other editors, you chose to use a personal attack by linking WP:FOOTY editors to a common pejorative. And winking emoticons are well understood to communicate sarcasm, so unless you have some playful relationship with GiantSnowman (which is not readily apparent here, and if that is the case I'll strike my comments), then that easily comes across as taunting, whether or not it is what you intended. Jay eyem (talk) 16:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm sorry, this is just hilarious (and to make it 100% clear I'm not attacking you personally or whatever). Somehow you seem to forget editors involved in WP:FOOTY also include people who are primarily interested in women's soccer. And editing on WP is primarily supposed to be fun. And that woso and broso are common shorthands used in online communities in a fun and not prerogative way – and if you want to take it that way, maybe think about why you're taking it so personally somehow when you have had little involvement in editing woso articles on here in the past, so maybe that characterization is not entirely untrue... And why, having had no active investment in woso articles on here, that you're so involved now in an AfD for a woso article... Given the systematic bias on women-centric articles on WP (well documented, not just restricted to soccer), why some woso editors with a long history of dealing with this might get annoyed from time to time. And that you're a third party somehow jumping in to defend GS, when we seem to be fine all along. (Full disclosure: GS and I have both agreed and disagreed plenty of times in the past, if you want to check.) Seany91 (talk) 17:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        "broso" is absolutely not common usage on wikipedia. A search for the term in the project namespace returns only this conversation and Birgit Brosø. And you've just acknowledged to using a commonly used pejorative term, ironically, in a discussion about bias. Is there systemic gender bias on Wikipedia? Yes. Has this been discussed extensively in relation to football? Yes. Is that an excuse for incivility towards other editors? No. As for my involvement at AfD, I watch the page Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Football, which is why I came across it. And since GS seems fine with your emoticon, I'll strike my comment. But my criticism of "broso" remains: it's an insult, whether or not you intend it that way. Jay eyem (talk) 00:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also pinging @Jay eyem, @Seany91, @Snood1205, @Coolabahapple, @Pharaoh of the Wizards. That article is just an interview in a student newspaper at her institution, making it fail the requirements for GNG on three levels. JoelleJay (talk) 03:35, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think I would dispute that it is not independent, since it is a student run publication. Granted I don't know the specifics, but I know that the Lantern at tOSU and the Daily at UM are both completely independent of their respective universities, so I just assume this would be similar. As far as reliability is concerned, I don't know where that concern comes from with regards to interviewing a college athlete but that's not my area of expertise. I'll say that I don't think a single interview by a student-run paper that presumably regularly interviews student athletes really merits inclusion on Wikipedia, but since she also technically passes WP:NFOOTY I'd rather wait to see if more sources can be found than to !vote. Jay eyem (talk) 06:13, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Student newspapers are not independent of the student body from which they draw editors, nor are they actually independent of the university beyond asserting some degree of editorial independence (even The Lantern has a faculty adviser). They have long been held non-reliable for considerations of notability (see these recent administrator closes here and here); the latter AfD close explicitly says The result was delete. consensus has consistently been that local and student newspapers are not sufficient for the notability of local student athletes. And meeting NFOOTY is irrelevant once notability is challenged. JoelleJay (talk) 19:04, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree in part. Consensus has long been that student newspapers are not independent for GNG purposes. However, there is no such consensus with respect to local newspapers. To the contrary, multiple efforts to import a WP:AUD element into WP:GNG have been soundly rejected. Cbl62 (talk) 22:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok genuine question, where does this consensus for student newspapers not being independent or reliable come from? I did see the two AfDs posted, but was not entirely swayed by the merits of the arguments made therein. I can understand the concerns about reliability (you wouldn't necessarily expect high quality journalism from students), but these papers are independent, both editorially and (at least for the Daily) financially. So from a policy perspective, where does this argument come from? Where is the discussion that these sources have been deprecated besides a couple of AfDs? Jay eyem (talk) 23:30, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've been monitoring American football AfDs for more than a decade, and it's long been commonly accepted there that content from student newspapers concerning the school's athletes fail WP:IS. The rationale is that students of XYZ College writing about athletes at XYZ College lack the requisite independence. Cbl62 (talk) 23:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We require independent sources because those that are affiliated with the subject cannot be expected to evaluate or reflect the subject's real-world importance. To that end, we don't consider coverage published on someone by members of their own organization, particularly those acting as representatives of their organization, to be independent. Alumni newsletters, profiles of awardees by the awarding org, profiles of contestants published by sponsors of their contest, coverage of a business by a newspaper that receives ad revenue from the business...none of these should be used for notability. Just because the college doesn't legally dictate the content or directly support the paper doesn't mean it is "independent" in the sense of the term used by Wikipedia. Student newspapers are specifically aimed at, funded by, and focused on the interests of members of their university. The faculty advisers and board are still paid by the university, the student editors are ~~tens of thousands of dollars in debt to~~ invested in the university, the student athlete makes money for the university; ultimately they have a clear financial relationship with their university in a way that, e.g., a local newspaper does not. JoelleJay (talk) 05:50, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Jay's assessment of lack of independence and would argue that it should meet WP:IS. With regards to it being an interview, there are quotes from her, but there are also paragraphs of text that are interspersed, so it's not as much an interview as an article will some quotes. I think that if we ignore the quotes as a form of WP:SPS then it also passes WP:V. I guess the question as to whether or not it would count for a WP:GNG source is if it is considered WP:RS. There is nothing that would make me inherently doubt it being reliable, but I cannot say for certain as I do not know the editorial standards at the paper. snood1205 18:02, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
GNG and NSPORT are very clear that notability can only be achieved with sources that are independent. From NSPORT: A person is presumed to be notable if they have been the subject of multiple published non-trivial secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. Student newspapers, as far as I know, have never been considered independent of their institutions/the student body with respect to notability (this recent close explicitly documents the consensus: The result was delete. consensus has consistently been that local and student newspapers are not sufficient for the notability of local student athletes.) JoelleJay (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Realized I never pinged @Spiderone. JoelleJay (talk) 19:13, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - there is longstanding consensus that scraping by on NFOOTBALL with one or two appearances is insufficient when GNG is failed so comprehensively, as is the case here. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 16:35, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per the hundreds of AfDs on male footballers who played 1 game. So little gameplay fails the spirit of NFOOTBALL, and lack of coverage stems from that, so the subject doesn't meet any other guideline either. The collegian.psu.edu source would probably not be regarded as independent, and being interviewed by news outlets one or two times don't cut the guideline. Geschichte (talk) 16:35, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - while I could only find one really good source on Dennis (above), which consequently means that I can't prove that she meets WP:GNG, I do believe that meeting WP:NFOOTBALL should be enough. As others have stated, there are very few WP:FPL women's leagues so I actually believe that those that have played in such a league are a relatively exclusive club. In much the same vein, I always support the keeping of footballers that have received a full international cap, even in the cases where it can't be proved for definite that they meet GNG, the fact that they have played the sport at such a high level makes them notable based on their achievements in the sport. I admit that this isn't my most scientific vote, especially given my stance on players that have played 1 or 2 games in men's football and then disappeared but it's just my thought on the matter. I don't expect any of this to gain traction but it's worth discussing in a civil manner anyway. Speaking of which, some of the comments above really lack civility, which is a shame. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I do see the argument from the article above. It definitely is WP:SIGCOV and to be honestly it's a lot more than many of the WP:NFOOTY one appearance noms are. It's not necessarily WP:GNG, but I do respect the argument for keep. It's honestly a difficult situation one way or the other, but I think that the combination of arguments since I've been involved with the AfD. I'm going to strike my !vote. I want to keep, but also I feel that I need to hold a similar standard that I have been holding elsewhere. I think I will vote keep. While it is important to hold to the same standard, there is not the same WP:SIGCOV, even if just from one article, on many of the other AfDs I've !voted delete in. Some amalgam of WP:NFOOTY and WP:IAR is my rationale. snood1205 03:54, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, does Dennis meet WP:NFOOTY? yes (although some editors above appear to be muddying the waters by suggesting that she only just meets it}, but occasionally some editors who concentrate on a sng seem to disregard WP:SPORTBASIC ie. "A person is presumed to be notable if they have been the subject of multiple published non-trivial secondary sources ...", the discussion above emphasises one solid source but that is not "multiple", until another is found this looks like delete. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:36, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- To clarify, is this a comment or a vote? Seany91 (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keepper Spiderone passes WP:NFOOTY.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:33, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There are zero independent secondary SIGCOV sources in this discussion. The article in the Daily Collegian solidly fails on multiple criteria: it is a student newspaper, which is almost never an RS for notability of anything; it is a student newspaper at her institution, and therefore not independent; and it is an interview, which is neither independent nor secondary. JoelleJay (talk) 03:29, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – my !vote follows along with Spiderone above. At the end of the day, what we're here on Wikipedia to do is to write an encyclopedia. Dennis meets WP:NFOOTY, one of our guidelines for inclusion on said encyclopedia. We are able to write a sourced, readable biography with the sources that exist online. With all that in mind, I feel that there is absolutely no reason to delete this article. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 06:59, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Except NFOOTY does not supersede GNG, which she decidedly does not meet. JoelleJay (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails WP:GNG. As noted above, articles published in student newspapers at the school attended by the subject do not suffice, as such publications have long been held to lack independence. Cbl62 (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, I agree with Spiderone, and I think Dennis does meet WP:GNG. I was able to find some independent, secondary SIGCOV sources (examples here, here, here, here, here, here and here). She represented the United States at youth international level, signed a professional contract, played professionally for two seasons in one of the highest-level women's football leagues in the world, was a substitute for 15 games and played a full match as a professional. Outside of the regular starters, goalkeepers tend to make fewer appearances than outfielders. It is not as though her career as a first team squad member lasted 5 minutes, as we have seen with some footballers with 1 appearance being deleted, she was with a top-level professional team for 2 years. S.A. Julio (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Several of the new sources either lack the required depth (e.g, this) or are questionable as reliable sources (e.g., (this) but there's enough for me to withdraw my "delete" vote and leave the notability call to those more knowledgeable about soccer. Cbl62 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The three Centre Daily Times sources are a) routine b) shallow signing coverage c) derived directly from press releases from the athletic department and therefore do not contribute to GNG. The We Are Central PA source is identical in format to the university's roster bios and so is obviously not independent. The Patch.com source is literally a news release from the team she was signing to ("—News release submitted by Arsenal FC and Elite Clubs National League") so does not count whatsoever. The Local DVM source is four very brief sentences of signing coverage = not SIGCOV. All of this is utterly routine media attention for college athletes. I stand by my delete !vote and would encourage @Cbl62 to reconsider. JoelleJay (talk) 18:26, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To discuss the sources provided at the end.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 17:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I'm swayed by S.A. Julio's comments. (And the discourse re. GS above was entertaining) Chumpih ^t 21:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the attempted ping by @Seany91: above didn't work, as there was no signature. I've only just come back to this discussion by accident and missed all the drama - it would have been nice if somebody else had attempted to notify me about it all. FWIW I don't view the ';)' emoticon as being anything other than good natured. Back on topic - I think enough coverage has now been found for the subject to be notable and therefore I suggest we keep it. GiantSnowman 22:14, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- There's an experienced editor: successfully making the ping haha! Thanks, GS. :) Seany91 (talk) 22:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - I apologize for making that assumption. To me, I immediately saw it as taunting (as I would in most every other case). I've seen how rapidly AfDs can get out of hand and how rarely WP:CIVILITY gets enforced which is why I spoke up. Jay eyem (talk) 00:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I absolutely hate the "articles which pass the SNG but fail GNG should be deleted" bullshit. If passing the SNG is meaningless and the only thing that matters is passing GNG, then we should just delete all SNGs, because they serve no purpose except to cause confusion. If, however, SNGs do serve a purpose, then we should stop fucking ignoring them. She passes the SNG, her article gets to stay. GNG can kiss my ass. Mlb96 (talk) 03:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 58: / Line 58: @@
 **There's an experienced editor: successfully making the ping haha! Thanks, GS. :) [[User:Seany91|Seany91]] ([[User talk:Seany91|talk]]) 22:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 ***I apologize for making that assumption. To me, I immediately saw it as taunting (as I would in most every other case). I've seen how rapidly AfDs can get out of hand and how rarely [[WP:CIVILITY]] gets enforced which is why I spoke up. [[User:Jay eyem|Jay eyem]] ([[User talk:Jay eyem|talk]]) 00:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
-*'''Keep''' I absolutely hate the "articles which pass the SNG but fail GNG should be deleted" bullshit. If passing the SNG is meaningless, then we should just delete all SNGs, because they serve no purpose except to cause confusion. If, however, SNGs do serve a purpose, then we should stop fucking ignoring them. She passes the SNG, her article gets to stay. [[User:Mlb96|Mlb96]] ([[User talk:Mlb96|talk]]) 03:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
+*'''Keep''' I absolutely hate the "articles which pass the SNG but fail GNG should be deleted" bullshit. If passing the SNG is meaningless and the only thing that matters is passing GNG, then we should just delete all SNGs, because they serve no purpose except to cause confusion. If, however, SNGs do serve a purpose, then we should stop fucking ignoring them. She passes the SNG, her article gets to stay. GNG can kiss my ass. [[User:Mlb96|Mlb96]] ([[User talk:Mlb96|talk]]) 03:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)