Talk:Wi Spa controversy

Should the Article Name the Suspect?

On January 26, 2023, I added the suspect's name to the article (diff). My edits were reverted by an editor citing WP:ACCUSED. I restored the edits, pointing out that "WP:ACCUSED does not prohibit using a suspect's name". My revert was then rolled back by another editor citing WP:BLPCRIME and WP:BLPRESTORE. Therefore, I am now raising the matter here.

The suspect's name has been known publicly since 2021 and appears in reliable sources already cited in this article including, but not necessarily limited to, The Guardian, The Los Angeles Times, and The Los Angeles Blade. I am aware of no policy that categorically prohibits the mere naming of a criminal suspect.

On the contrary, it seems to me that naming criminal suspects is routine in the case of articles about alleged criminal controversies or incidents. For example, the five police officers charged in the death of Tyre Nichols were not public figures until the media (and Wikipedia) published their names in short order. Likewise, the civilian suspect is named in the lede of the article on the 2022 death of Michelle Go. What is the basis for treating the suspect, Darren Merager, differently in this article? - Mox La Push (talk) 04:13, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I was the first one to revert you. I believe I was probably in error to do so. Therefore, I did not re-revert when you restored your revision.

I believe Sideswipe9th re-reverted on procedural grounds i.e. I raised a good faith BLP concern so now consensus must be sought. I don't know what their opinion of the object-level matter is.

As for me, I retract any objection I have had to including the accused's name, so I am fine with it being reinserted. CharredShorthand.talk; 04:43, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I have thanked Sideswipe9th for drawing my attention to WP:BLPRESTORE and I thank you, CharredShorthand, for your comment here. Mox La Push (talk) 05:44, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

My revert was on two points. One was the BLPRESTORE procedural grounds, because CharredShorthand had made a good faith BLP objection, the content had to be removed pending a positive consensus to restore it.

My second objection is on BLPCRIME and WP:BLPNAME grounds. Merager is I think not a public figure, they are certainly not notable in the sense that we would have a stand alone article on them. While there was an arrest warrant issued in December 2022, to my knowledge no actual conviction of a crime has taken place. BLPCRIME states that in the absence of a conviction, editors must seriously consider not including material in an article that suggests an identifiable person who is not a public figure has committed or is accused of committing a crime.

Where BLPNAME comes into play is that we're fundamentally discussing an individual whose notoriety seems to be in terms of a single event; their presence at the spa in June 2021. The last time that I looked at the sources here in depth was circa September 2021, where Merager's name had not been widely disseminated in reliable sources. From my memory at the time, and searching through the talk page archives, it was limited to the three sources you've already linked (Guardian, LA Times, LA Blade) and a handful very unreliable tabloids like the NY Post. With the exception of an interview published December 20th, and a report on the not guilty pleading on January 25th, both by LA Magazine, I'm not seeing Merager's name appear in any other reliable sources.

The difference between Merager, and the five officers charged in relation to the death of Tyre Nichols, is that the nature of the crimes to which those officers are accused have made them (rightly or wrongly) public figures. If I do a quick Google News search, filtered to just those articles published in the last 24 hours, Google News states there has been about 154,000 results. However if I preform a Google News search for all published news articles on Merager, with no date filter, I get only 98 results.

Are there any reliable sources about Merager, published after September 2021, that I've missed?

TLDR; is Merager a public figure? If no, then BLPCRIME and BLPNAME applies. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

To reiterate, neither WP:BLPCRIME nor WP:BLPNAME categorically prohibit naming criminal suspects, even those who are not public figures. More to the point, I disagree that Darren Agee Merager is not a public figure.

As it pertains to public figure status, the difference between Merager and the officers charged in the death of Tyre Nichols is a difference of degree, not of kind. The death of Tyre Nichols very rightly attracted far greater media attention for a variety of reasons, the most notable being that Tyre Nichols died.

Yet, Merager and the crime of which he* is accused (and the subsequent fallout) has also attracted significant, albeit lesser, international public attention—making him a public figure after he was named in 2021 in reliable sources as the suspect and identified as a convicted sex offender. Furthermore, any question over whether Merager is a public figure was finally put to rest when Merager voluntarily gave separate interviews, using his legal name, with both the NY Post and LA Magazine. The NY Post interview was covered in, among others, the LA Times, The Guardian, and the LA Blade.

* According to two the Los Angeles magazine reporters who interviewed Merager, he told them him: "he/him and she/her pronouns are just fine but [Merager] loathes they/them". For that reason and others I use he/him when referring to Merager. Mox La Push (talk) 04:31, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposal re: The Suspect's Pronouns

Currently, the suspect, Darren Merager, is referenced in the article using they/them¹ and she/her² pronouns. If he/him is used then I have missed it. Merager reportedly told a Los Angeles magazine reporter "he/him and she/her pronouns are just fine but [Merager] loathes they/them".

Unless, Merager has later contradicted himself or disputed the accuracy of this reporting elsewhere then the article should not use they/them to refer to Merager except when directly quoting reliable sources. Furthermore, since, according to the LA magazine interview:

• Merager is "very uncomfortable" being "put ... under a transgender umbrella"; and,
• Merager says: "I have facial hair. I have a penis. I have no breasts. I don’t have a feminine voice. I don’t wear makeup or dress up like a female."; and,
• Merager says: "technically, for legal terms, I am she/her. I put 'female' on my driver’s license." (emphasis added); and,
• Merager says: "I have heterosexual sex because my penis fits in a vagina. I don’t tell women I’m with that I’m transgender because that’s not my sex."; and,
• Merager seemingly negatively characterizes transgender people who have medically transitioned as deviants. To wit, he says: "All these external people are doing what is being called transitioning. There’s no transition. That’s called deviation."; and,
• Merager stated explicitly he/him are acceptable pronouns to be used in reference to him.

Therefore, I propose that the article be edited to consistently use he/him to refer to Darren Merager. This proposal conforms to MOS:GENDERID as I understand it. I want to stress that I don't consider any one of the six factors listed above to be dispositive in terms of deciding which pronouns to use in the article but that taken altogether they weigh strongly in favor of the consistent use of he/him.

Notes:
¹ For example, "On December 19, 2022, Los Angeles Magazine published an interview with the suspect in which they repudiate the hoax notion ..." (emphasis added).
² For example "The suspect also said that they used the women's section of the spa facilities and were in the hot tub when she encountered Cubana Angel ..." (emphasis added). Mox La Push (talk) 06:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)