Talk:Pride flag

Gay man flag

Most of these flags here are not really mainstream, you wouldn't be able to show it to someone on the street and have them recognize it besides like, the rainbow one. I don't think the fact that it is originated in social media should be a point against it, as the lesbian one also was. I don't think including the most used flag for gay men, a huge part of the LGBT community, is "indiscriminate archiving of all flags".

Things showing how common it is:

Google searches, just to show there are many results: https://www.google.com/search?hl=pt-BR&tbs=sbi:AMhZZit-MEm4E20pki9S5rtHH-tamYA5r4g23kTwUlnyoVRtSDVqOtIPER4Id9IAgrf3GZriCcoI1O-zlPjjXAbCqFm9kqluOKh_1jWTahu44a5s-VoALG1j8mDOuXGqYCGXuyNsjPmO3TyV2EusiIGT_1pVWAZicwJwUy4DBjCFkqvFP6jkdqT646XWQLnjW8DLbMbC33oI0Q-ahFi8Is2FGYuJSlsZqWi1901KpM_1fR8AyLXZNiBhtWxHwoHo63QPx3HOpdjbrwev7d_1Bk0aa9Sy0mdqo_1dgvutOMC7g6HLRyu6gMaMUTDPnZzZVptB8qU4uY6iP9Gou_1zVMem6BDB7Ke1LYtkUJfw&sxsrf=ALeKk032omIcgdWjTN9ErqF-iHYVEWQw1Q:1618816680590&ei=qC59YN7AI5md5OUPxMyYiAw&start=0&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjetM-J4onwAhWZDrkGHUQmBsE4ChDx0wN6BAgBEDQ&biw=1366&bih=657

https://www.google.com/search?hl=pt-BR&tbs=sbi:AMhZZit-MEm4E20pki9S5rtHH-tamYA5r4g23kTwUlnyoVRtSDVqOtIPER4Id9IAgrf3GZriCcoI1O-zlPjjXAbCqFm9kqluOKh_1jWTahu44a5s-VoALG1j8mDOuXGqYCGXuyNsjPmO3TyV2EusiIGT_1pVWAZicwJwUy4DBjCFkqvFP6jkdqT646XWQLnjW8DLbMbC33oI0Q-ahFi8Is2FGYuJSlsZqWi1901KpM_1fR8AyLXZNiBhtWxHwoHo63QPx3HOpdjbrwev7d_1Bk0aa9Sy0mdqo_1dgvutOMC7g6HLRyu6gMaMUTDPnZzZVptB8qU4uY6iP9Gou_1zVMem6BDB7Ke1LYtkUJfw&sxsrf=ALeKk00woceWKPRQRVpXRIy7_qWrkmsjww:1618815953766&ei=0St9YOKRLv7P5OUP8Lyx2AM&start=20&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwiivoWv34nwAhX-J7kGHXBeDDs4ChDy0wN6BAgBEDk&biw=1366&bih=657

Physical versions of it to buy: https://pridenation.lgbt/products/blue-gay-men-flag

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08B4QGSRF/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_-u5-Eb8BG772B

https://www.1000flags.co.uk/gay-male-pride-striped-5-x-3-150cm-x-90cm-flag-76197-p.asp

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gay-Male-Striped-Flag-5-x-3-FT-New-100-Polyester-Rainbow-Gay-Pride-LGBT-/402635212118

Pins and many other products: https://www.etsy.com/listing/754583534/gay-man-gay-male-gay-bear-pride-flag-pin?utm_source=OpenGraph&utm_medium=PageTools&utm_campaign=Share https://www.fursonapins.com/shop/product/631

https://gayprideshop.co.uk/collections/gay-male-mlm

https://www.etsy.com/shop/OnTrendShirts?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=797258710&search_query=MLM

There are many more links at the source of its creation (https://gayflagblog.tumblr.com/merch).

Articles or so about it or that include it: https://cadehildreth.com/pride-flags/ (source posted)

https://queercafe.net/symbols.htm

http://www.rowanwritingarts.org/writers-insider-blog/sidestepping-stereotypes-an-interview-with-students-scott-maclean-and-georgia-iris-salvaryn-on-lgbtq-stereotypes-in-literature-marissa-stanko

https://orientando.org/search/apora/

https://www.josiewrites.com/2021/02/19/writing-gay-characters/

https://entendi2.com/nueva-bandera-gay

https://elclosetlgbt.com/noticias/hombre-trans-y-gay-propone-anadir-nueva-bandera-exclusivamente-gay-a-la-comunidad-lgbt/

https://escriturafeminista.com/2018/06/19/cicloorgullolgbtia-identidad-gay/

https://codigopublico.com/rompiendo-codigos/bandera-gay-necesidad-o-capricho

I could also find many many examples of it being used on social media, but I was told that was irrelevant to adding things here... When imo it really shouldn't. The way LGBT youth expresses themselves absolutely matters, and the fact that such being done in social media is considered not valid is, legimately saddening to me. And this is a website that archives plenty of things related to the internet.

It might seem like I'm just someone randomly deciding to put this nonsense here, but there's the fact that, a version of the file was originally uploaded here back in 2019, it was included in another article before I even tried putting it in pages myself, after the revert of my original one on LGBT symbols someone else(that isn't me, or the original uploader, or the one who added it to the gay men page) added it back, so clearly this is something that a considerable amount of people think deserve to be here and not just some random whim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wonkakun (talk • contribs) 7:41, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

why is the MAP flag not here?

I feel its a notable enough pride flag to be featured here -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.161.222.7 (talk) 09:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I never heard of it before, but a little Googling appears to reveal that it originated as a hoax: [1] etc. AnonMoos (talk) 10:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

OP was in another thread promoting racial theory. I'm not surprised to see them here promoting other alt-right themes. Disavow per WP:noracists and WP:nonazis. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Scope of title

The current title of the article could open the potential for inclusion of such things as the "straight pride flag" which has been developed by homophobes. In the spirit of NPOV and encylopedicism, it seems that it would be prudent to add "LGBT" or some other qualifier to the page title to specify. Without that qualifier, the arguments against including such a thing as the "straight pride" flag would lack taxonomic rigor. So, perhaps the article title should be "LGBTQ pride flags" instead of just "pride flags". 73.140.122.224 (talk) 04:08, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Alternately, perhaps *mentions* of that flag (as well as the hoax MAP flag) -- without image -- might be warranted perhaps in a "Controversial" subsection. - 73.140.122.224 (talk) 04:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Is anyone trying to add that flag?---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 04:13, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually, I wouldn't be against the inclusion of a mention of straight flags in this article, which have been developed by both allies and homophobes. It would be within the scope of the article to mention that such the concept of "pride flags" outside (or even opposing) the LGBTQ community exists, which does not necessarily mean endorsing it. Should straight people have a pride flag? It doesn't matter, because it is not Wikipedia's job to arbitrate that (see WP:SOAPBOX, WP:ADVOCACY, and WP:RGW). ~BappleBusiness^[talk] 08:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

The important thing to remember here is that we can't cover troll flags in a way that gives any appearance of equivalence with genuine pride flags. That doesn't mean that we can't cover them at all but we do have to be very careful when engaging with such bad faith propaganda materials in order to contextualise them clearly and properly for our readers. One possibility would be to have a section called "Parodies, backlash and trolling" for this. That section could explain how such flags are (mis)used as well as showing one or two examples. In my view, all the straight/cis/etc flags fall into this category except for the sincere ally flags, which do have their own issues but at least they are not intended for trolling. DanielRigal (talk) 11:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

If you want to include a real heterosexual flag, then feel free, but please do not include the horizontal black-and-white striped flag, which is actually a flag devised for straight people by gay people, and which many heterosexuals would find offensive (due to associations with prison uniforms etc. etc). AnonMoos (talk) 07:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

That's news to me. I've only ever seen it used in a "straight pride" context but I don't know where it started. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's a troll flag either way. DanielRigal (talk) 11:16, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

There's a high probability that the horizontal black-and-white striped flag was invented to be the background of the "straight ally" flag. There's also a high probability that a heterosexual flag devised by actual heterosexuals would make use of the obvious rich symbolisms available -- Mars and Venus, pink and blue, hearts, etc. etc. -- and would not try to invoke prison uniforms, zebra stripes, or pedestrian crossings. AnonMoos (talk) 23:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Do you have evidence for the meaning of the black and white stripes? What I've looked up says the stripes stand for two genders. What you're saying seems to be from the description of the picture, which was written by user Nikki with no citation. The same stripes are present on other LGBT flags, like Agender. I can't find anything on the history of this flag in Scholar or the Wikipedia Library. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm referring to obvious associations which would occur to many, many people when seeing a pattern of black and white stripes (regardless of what the original intentions may have been). The BDSM "Ownership flag" (i.e. master/slave relationship flag) was designed by its originator Tanos to have black-and-white stripes to specifically invoke prison uniforms or prison bars, but it's hardly an association suitable to heterosexuality. If heterosexuals were devising a heterosexual flag, it's very hard to see how they would arrive at a design which easily lends itself to such unwanted interpretations, while simultaneously ignoring all the other rich symbolisms available, such as Mars and Venus, pink and blue, moon and sun, etc. etc. etc. AnonMoos (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I can't see Tanos' original website and it isn't on the Wayback machine, so all I know is that it looks like prison stripes to you. To every source I've seen, the stripes in black and white represent dichotomy. In the case of the flag you mentioned, the clear dichotomy would be master and slave. Why would BDSM participants be wearing prison clothes? BDSM isn't about prison. Binding is a sexual fetish, and while both prisons and sexual binding involve constraints, they're for two different purposes. Also, I can't find anything on who created the Heterosexual pride flag other than the person who uploaded it to Wikipedia commons. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 16:18, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Whatever -- I almost certainly know quite a bit more about Tanos than you do, since I was a fairly regular participant on his site for at least two or three years (back when it was still a discussion board site), and Tanos basically blessed as official my SVG vectorizations of his flag designs. Prison role-play or metaphors aren't a large part of BDSM, but they definitely exist, and were one of the things that Tanos had in mind when he designed his flag (other things were a shield for owners, a collar for those owned, which is also the letter "O" for ownership ideology, etc). And of course, the Tanos Ownership flag existed for years before anyone heard of the horizontal black-and-white striped so-called "straight"[sic] flag. Tanos was a minor participant on both English Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons back in the day, and you could try contacting him on his user talk pages, but I doubt you'd get a reply, since he seems to have mostly withdrawn from the Internet...

Also, yet another negative insulting connotation of the horizontal black-and-white striped flag is of course the implication that heterosexuals are dull boring people with monochrome lives, while queers have vivid exciting technicolor lives. The fact that the horizontal black-and-white striped flag has so many obvious negative interpretations is a strong indication that it's a flag for heterosexuals devised by non-heterosexuals (very likely originally as the background for the "Straight Ally flag", as I mentioned before). AnonMoos (talk) 21:40, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

This seems like a lot of original research and POV. You may have a lot of feelings on these issues, but they shouldn't influence what goes into a page unless there are sources to back up any statements or direction of presentation. Although, it's iffy since there isn't a lot of easily accessible academic coverage of what I suppose amounts to the pop culture of the LGBT+ movement; all the flags and their descriptions that we currently have might as well be considered OR, as far as I understand. I guess it doesn't matter since no one seems too interested in adding a straight pride reference here. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Original Research matters a lot when it comes to information to be added to an article, but when it comes to background information in a talk page discussion as to whether something should be excluded or included on an article, it may not be that important. My evidence is mostly circumstantial (except for the rather clear connection to the Straight Ally flag), but cumulatively it's quite strong (in the absence of any specific documented disconfirming evidence). However, if something I want to be excluded from an article is excluded from it, but for what I would consider the wrong reasons, I guess I can live with that... -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

While we are discussing the title, what about moving it to plural? Because the article isn't about one flag alone, so it probably should be "Pride flags" -- Tazuco [v] 19:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals), Wikipedia article titles are usually in the singular, unless there's something specific which would indicate a plural title would be more appropriate. (In contrast, category names are very often plural.) AnonMoos (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense. Man, Woman, Non-binary gender, Pride flag. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Should we add subsections to the flag gallery?

I noticed that a lot more flags have been added since the last time I was here, and they cite enough sources that they likely deserve to stay, but I think this is visual overload. Splitting it up a little might make it a little easier to process it.

Should we add sub-sections to differentiate between flags representing gender identities, flags representing sexual orientations, and other flags that don't fit neatly into either category?

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and  Done it since I don't really expect this to be a controversial move, but if anyone has opinions, feel welcomed to leave them here.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:04, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Very reasonable to split them up, in my opinion.-- User:Brainy J ✿ (talk) 16:28, 29 April 2023 (UTC)