Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palau–Serbia relations

Palau–Serbia relations

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Palau–Serbia relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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This is another bilateral relations article that doesn't actually describe much of that - there is no significant coverage, only some statements by politicians, and that does not warrant a standalone article. I stumbled upon this just like the Equatorial Guinea Kosovo relations article, this sounds equivalently silly. --Joy (talk) 18:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bilateral relations, Kosovo, Serbia, and Oceania. Joy (talk) 18:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment: It may seem silly at first to you but it seems to me the article is referencing issues further from the mere fact that some nominal formal relations exist. The issues already addressed include bilateral state visit by Palau president to Serbia, potentially controversial issue of de-recognition of Kosovo as well as climate change effects on international relations.--MirkoS18 (talk) 19:06, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment (part 2): After expanding the article with further 18 references, many of which with in depth coverage I believe that comparison with Equatorial Guinea–Kosovo relations is inadequate one and probably even a false balanced approach. It would in fact be much more similar to the Georgia–Kiribati relations (maybe even Abkhazia–Vanuatu relations or Abkhazia–Tuvalu relations) case showing how in a globalized world some important links and relations (based on specific interest) between far away peripheral and semi-peripheral countries may develop.--MirkoS18 (talk) 08:33, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but saying that the countries "collaborate" through an embassy in Tokio is just adding to the meaninglessness of this article. A blurb on the ministry of foreign affairs website does not constitute significant coverage of this "collaboration", most obviously because it's not a secondary source nor is it independent from the article subject. Also please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. In a globalized world, people write a lot of misguided encyclopedia articles and essentially waste volunteer time and effort. --Joy (talk) 07:15, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, I understand that you may have a strong opinion that this is some silly and needless topic but once you stop laughing maybe take a look at other references in this article as well (the one you selected in no random way is obviously not independent but is neither stating anything controversial or analytical). Some of them are in depth independent sources which should be evaluated without strong preconceptions. That is all I expect and I believe people who get involved will be willing to do exactly that. As for waste of time, nominating notable topics for deletion can also be interpreted as a waste of time and this topic looks notable to me. But let the community decide. Cheers!--MirkoS18 (talk) 07:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Which ones are in depth? Most of the reference section seems to be news coverage, at least I didn't notice much else. I combed through and saw nspm.rs which sounded like it could be an in-depth journal, but the article linked is from their 'chronicle' section and it seems to basically repeat a short press release. There's a handful of sources that are referenced more than once, an ABC article that quotes two academics from Macquarie University to explain, and an RTS article that seems to explicitly just carry a Tanjug wire article. This isn't about preconceptions, it's about the spirit and letter of WP:V. If the preponderance of coverage is about practically nothing, there's practically no reason to have an encyclopedia article about it. --Joy (talk) 09:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

It's about a small Pacific island nation with 4-5 embassies in total around the world which since 2018 managed to have two official heads of states meetings (Belgrade and New York), multiple high officials meetings (Belgrade, New York, Palau), clearly defined areas of interest in cooperation (climate, Kosovo), certain interest by USA and Russia in this relations, and bilateral agreements already signed or announced. There is also some precedence with certain role Yugoslavia played in UN's decolonisation efforts. All in all, this may be the best covered article on Palau's bilateral relations and I do believe that despite how small that state is their bilateral relations may be notable. Also, each of this requires significantly larger efforts by Palauan diplomacy to achieve than it would for any major state so even some simple meeting is hardly business as usual. Everything listed is properly referenced in multiple independent media sources (some of them with very sensationalist titles such as No smaller country no bigger friends) from Serbia and other countries. There is obvious media interest in this specific relations due to its linkage to Kosovo issue. It may seem to you equal to nonexistent relations between Kosovo and Equatorial Guinea but in reality it is not. It is also very much different than some hypothetical Serbia–Tonga relations since in this case both sides showed clear commitment to their cooperation (I shall not say collaboration I guess).--MirkoS18 (talk) 09:57, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete. Despite the commendable effort to expand the article, there just isn't WP:SIGCOV in independent, reliable sources. Yes the article cites some sources that mention state visits and the like, but there's nothing that actually covers the topic of Palau–Serbia relations in any sort of depth. Yilloslime (talk) 04:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment: there are multiple independent sources which I quoted in the article doing exactly what. Some of them addressing explicitly the beginning of bilateral relations for example. Also, sources dealing with bilateral meetings between the two countries are certainly a part of the topic. I would recommend everyone else to take a look at the reference list before assuming that the statement above is correct.--MirkoS18 (talk) 06:18, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment (part 2): also, since there is concern over the article currently under discussion should we probably also nominate most of the other articles in the Template:Foreign relations of Palau to check their inclusion? I think it would be shame to delete them all but at least it would tell us something about our policies if that would be the result. Personally, I would not like to do it myself at this time to avoid any disruption of the current procedure yet I am of course very much interested in equal treatment of topics on which I worked/am interested in to any other topic in this category.--MirkoS18 (talk) 07:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• Keep: meets WP:HEY now, in my opinion. I think it's reasonable that articles on bilateral relations consist mostly of news coverage because they are supposed to cover various events i.e. relations between the two countries. Despite establishing relations four and a quarter years ago, news coverage seems WP:SUSTAINED enough, comes from several notable newspapers independent of the subject, nearly all are entirely dedicated to Serbia and Palau (i.e. WP:SIGCOV). 5~6 of 28 references come from obvious primary sources (Ministry / National Assembly / The Office of the President / Socialist Party / UNESCO?) and I think that's not enough to discredit the entire article. Which sources aren't reliable among the rest? Palau seems to punch above its weight for what it is, and topics from underrepresented regions should be given more consideration before jumping to 'delete' voting. –Vipz (talk) 12:40, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Let's not beat around the bush here - the topic area of "Serbia vs. Kosovo" is hardly an underrepresented one. Does it warrant a 'bilateral relations' article for each of the offshoots? --Joy (talk) 18:21, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Not to beat around bushes, the importance of Kosovo in the initial development of those relations is explicitly stated (at least on Serbian side it was a primary motivation, doesn't seem like that on Palau's side). Saying that their relations are ONLY about Kosovo issue is original research if there is no reliable source stating it without other reliable sources challenging it.--MirkoS18 (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  But that's the thing - an encyclopedia needs to describe the real world. What's happening in the real world is a bunch of politicians occasionally talking. If our standard for reality is that, well, we might as well just give up on WP:AT and make a fresh article for each new press release :) This is not supposed to be WikiNews. --Joy (talk) 09:44, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  I don't know, maybe, but in this case we should split this article into multiple articles on 2-3 meetings, different policy areas, Yugoslavia in UN's body, shared initiative at UNESCO... but you are right, it may be too much. What is bringing it all together that it is about relations between Palau and Serbia in its different aspects and with different motivation.--MirkoS18 (talk) 14:20, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Delete per no significant coverage and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. In my opinion, this is a textbook Wikipedia:Overcategorization. 2001:48F8:3004:FC4:D480:5FD5:9310:3BA4 (talk) 04:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)