Talk:Paul Atreides

Image

Can we update the image to the 2020 version? Since the original screenshot is in poor quality?Triosdeity (talk) 15:05, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

One alternative would be like most of the Lord of The Rings character pages, and group all images together in whatever section is most relevant for adaptations. No one portrayal would be the representative in the summary box. I only use Lord of the Rings as an example as they're both novel series that have had several varied and unrelated media portrayals.184.83.192.15 (talk) 05:51, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I have moved all three portrayals of Paul into the infobox, is that better? InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:46, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't like it, it seems to clutter the infobox and I don't know why the change is necessary. With literary characters we typically use the first or most definitive representation as the main infobox image. I've never seen a gallery used in this way in this kind of article, though technically I don't think it violates the MOS or the template instructions. And Triosdeity, who objected to the current longstanding image, has been blocked indefinitely. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 18:21, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Alright then. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

So because 1 user doesn't like it then it should be reverted? And I think the photos should be of them in-character, not random captures of the actors out and about. Miss HollyJ (talk) 09:26, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

That's not it at all. First, per WP:NFCC a non-free image cannot be used in an article if a free equivalent is available. The policy also has a minimal use element, meaning you can get away with one non-free image that has some representational value, but you can't, in this case, use copyrighted screenshots of all three portrayals. As far as replacing the main image, anyone is welcome to open a discussion about that here. I would argue, though, that the current, long-standing image represents a distinctive (and probably the most recognizable) version of the character, while the available images of Alec Newman and Timothée Chalamet in the role don't look much different than the actors out and about.— TAnthony^Talk 05:19, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

@TAnthony This feels like your own personal opinion. The 2020 film is already becoming more impactful than the 1984 film ever was (The 1984 film did not even have any "distinction" or "definitiveness" - it was ultimately a low rated cult film). To provide one supporting piece of evidence, the first film made $30 million in the box office whereas the 2021 film has made over 10 times that about (394mil). I stand in solidarity with HollyJ and InfiniteNexus that the lead image should be changed. Kuhnaims (talk) 05:37, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

For posterity, I'd like to note that Triosdeity and Kuhnaims were both sockpuppets of the same blocked editor.— TAnthony^Talk 14:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@TeamEquestria: I'm reopening this discussion per your recent edits to change the main infobox image.— TAnthony^Talk 00:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems straightforward. Google "Paul Atreides" and we see 10,000 images from the 2021 movie, including many drawings and fan art, and only a few from the 1984 movie...and even fewer from the TV mini-series. The movie is likely to be the "definitive" image for Paul Atreides from now on, in the same way the Lord of the Rings movies provide the "definitive" images for the characters from the books. It's also closer to the description of the character from the book, who was fifteen years old. The actor in the 2021 movie looks like a teenager; the other two actors do not. TeamEquestria (talk) 13:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

It looks like no one else has any input at this time. I'm fine with your image, but I have a few comments that may inform potential future discussions about changing infobox images in this and related articles:

1. The Lynch film image has been the definitive representation of Paul Atreides for almost 40 years, the Villenueve film has existed for three.
2. Google search results don't really mean much in this case. The Lynch film was pre-internet, so all coverage was in print and anything found online is either archival or retrospective. Countless news and entertainment websites and blogs have covered the Villenueve film at every stage of production, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
3. The Lord of the Rings live action film images are definitive because they are the only representations aside from the old animated films. And even then, the LotR character articles don't appear to use any infobox images at all, but do have representations from the animated and live action films in the Adaptations section, ordered chronologically. I'm assuming that's because they are literary characters first and there are no/few readily available illustrations, which is sort of a weird but there must have been some consensus somewhere.

Anyway, I'll restore your new image, thanks for the discussion.— TAnthony^Talk 14:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Almost a year later, I beg to reopen the discussion. It's not fair to only include one actor's image, especially if he is the most famous one; all the more reason to preserve other two. 59.184.166.178 (talk) 08:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe you're suggesting we show images of all three portrayers in character? The issue with that is that it violates WP:NFCC. Screencaps and promo images of actors in character are copyrighted and non-free; Wikipedia has strict guidelines and limits on the use of non-free images. We have to choose one non-free image, usually for the infobox, and more would be considered decorative and not essential in illustrating the topic of the article. You'll notice we do have images of all three performers from WikiPedia Commons, which means the rights to use them have been released to Wikipedia so they are free to use without restriction. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 15:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Infobox image removal

Since this edit by Only in death removing the current infobox image has been reverted by myself and two other editors, and restored twice so far by Only in death, it should be discussed here to prevent edit warring. Only in death's original edit summary is Not a valid use for non-free material per WP:NFCC. This is an article about the character, not a particular film's depiction of the character where Chalamet's specific visual asthetic might add value. Fails NFCC on contextual significance (and others). Edit summary replies thus far have been [1], [2] and [3]. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 21:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand why this policy isn't being enforced for the other Dune character articles. Regardless, seeing as Paul is the main character of the series, I feel having an infobox image would be appropriate. Kokaynegeesus (talk) 05:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, find a free picture to use and put it there. Commons probably has many pictures of the various actors who have played him in media, however this article is about the literary character, not the film character, which barely merits two lines in the entire article, so there is absolutely no way a copyright still from the latest film satisfies our WP:NFCC criteria. If the article were entirely about the latest film's depiction, or even substantially, the argument it adds to the article's understanding might come close. But it isnt is it. Having an infobox image for the sake of an image isnt a get out for NFCC - you still need to demonstrate why the picture selected satisfies all the criteria for non-free use. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:59, 9 March 2024 (UTC)