Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lise Meitner/archive1

Lise Meitner

Lise Meitner (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 16 September 2024, 06:56 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

• Featured article candidates/Lise Meitner/archive1

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC) and Gah4 (talk)

This article is about Lise Meitner, the Austrian physicist who was the co-discover of the element protactinium and nuclear fission. She spent much of her scientific career in Berlin, Germany, where she was a physics professor and a department head at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute. She fled to Sweden after Austria was absorbed into Germany in 1938. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text

• File:Lise_Meitner_(1878-1968),_lecturing_at_Catholic_University,_Washington,_D.C.,_1946.jpg: is a more specific tag available? Ditto File:Lise_Meitner_standing_at_meeting_with_Arthur_H._Compton_and_Katherine_Cornell.jpg

  The originals are at [1] and [2]. Donated to the Smithsonian by Otto Hahn's biographer. No known copyright restrictions. We could use Template:PD-USGov-SI? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Not sure we can - those links indicate usage restrictions. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe this one File:Lise Meitner (1878–1968) 1953 OeNB USIS 2955727.jpg can be used as a lead photo? It's of better resolution, and the copyright looks ok. Artem.G (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

  just noticed that it's Hawkeye who uploaded high res version :) Artem.G (talk) 20:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Lise_Meitner12.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Otto_Hahn_und_Lise_Meitner.jpg

  Author is unknown. Image was created in 1906. A copy is in Churchill College, England. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, so retagging needed. What is the first known publication? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  I do not know when they were first published, but they are in Hahn's 1962 biography. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Berliner_Physiker_u_Chemiker_1920.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death

  Added URAA tag. Author unknown. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  I do not know first publication but it is in Hahn's 1962 book. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Hahn_and_Meitner_in_1912.jpg: when and where was this first published?

  In a commemorative brochure for the opening of the KWI in 1912. A copy was in Otto Hahn's papers, and is now in the Smithsonian. The Max Planck also has a copy. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Chemist_Lise_Meitner_with_students.jpg: the source seems to indicate this is not a NRC work?

  Source says "Courtesy of Bryn Mawr College" via the NRC. Has a CC 2.0 licence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria (talk) 01:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: I have switched the lead image to a new one I found in the Library of Congress. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Wolverine

I'll drop some comments pretty soon. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 14:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• On 13-14 July 1938, she fled to Holland with the help of Dirk En dash

  Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• her sisters Gisela and Lola converted to Catholic Christianity that same year Replace Catholic Christianity with Catholicism

  Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• She also adopted a shortened name "Lise". "A" should be "the", since we are specific here.

  Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• and first studied colours of an oil slick, thin films, and reflected light. "The" before colours

  Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• In July 1901, the girls sat an external examination at the Akademisches Gymnasium. Grammar

  Looks fine to me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• She was particularly inspired by Boltzmann, and was said to often speak with contagious enthusiasm of his lectures. I'm not sure about "contagious" here, and it should be "about" rather than "of"

  Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• who was on the record as opposing the admission of women to universities in general, "The" is not needed

  Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• Meitner and Hahn in their laboratory, in 1913. When a colleague she did not recognise said that they had met before, Meitner replied: "You probably mistake me for Professor Hahn. Image caption is confusing

  Looks fine to me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• Meitner was more concerned with understanding their radiations. Should radiations be singular?

  Might as well. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• In 1912, Hahn and Meitner moved to the newly founded Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (KWI) for Chemistry. Why is chemistry capitalized?

  It is the proper name of the institute. There were several of them, including a KWI for Physical Chemistry. See Kaiser Wilhelm Society for details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• of which he gave ten per cent to Meitner. Is this %?

  MOS:PERCENT: "The body of non-scientific/​non-technical articles may use either the % symbol or the word(s) percent (American English) or per cent (British English)"

• In 1945 the Nobel Committee for Chemistry in Sweden that selected the Nobel Prize in Chemistry decided to award that prize solely to Hahn: Colon should be a full stop

  Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• Hahn only found out from a newspaper while interned in Farm Hall Cambridgeshire England. Should be "at"

  I think "in" is correct. He was incarcerated there. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Support -- My comments are so minor that you already have my support. Well done! When all is done, I'd appreciate a review of the narwhal FAC. Thanks, Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 15:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Prose review by Generalissima

• You bold Elise Meitner in the Early years section, but you already mention this name in the lede - it should probably just be bolded there.

  Yes. Emboldened as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• I'm slightly unclear what "advanced education" means in this context. Merely attending college, or becoming academics in their own right?

  Tertiary education. Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Women were not allowed to attend public institutions of higher education in Vienna until 1897, and she completed her final year of school in 1892 I think this would make more sense with the clauses reversed, and moved after the following sentence; this way, it'd flow naturally into the "only career available" part.

  Good idea. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Some context on what either her masters or doctoral theses were about could be interesting.

  The title translations are mine. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• "Circumspect" seems like a bit of an obscure word here. Also "egalitarian" is a bit confusing - I know we're talking about how Hahn drank a lot of Respect Women Juice, but it's phrased confusingly in this portion.

  Germany was very formal society at the time. Oppenheimer, for example, once made the mistake of addressing Arnold Sommerfeld as "Professor" instead of "Geheimrat". Removed. I need to strike the right note here. For a man of his time, Hahn was progressive in his attitudes towards women. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Later that year, perhaps fearing that Meitner was in financial difficulties and might return to Vienna, since her father had died in 1910, Planck appointed her his assistant at the Institute for Theoretical Physics in the Friedrich Wilhelm University I think it might be best to remove the "since her father had died" clause. Maybe split it up; "Meitner may have entered financial difficulties after the death of her father in 1910. Possibly due to this, Planck appointed her..."

  Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• You reference prices in marks a lot, but a modern reader has no context. Is there a way we can have conversions? There's likely a template for the mark. (Tho these might be best as efns after each quote rather than as in-line text)

  I don't know how to do this. I will ask and see in anyone else does. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  Betty Logan showed me how, so added currency conversions to euros. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• "fortuitous" is somewhat vague, since it can either mean "by chance" or "fortunately". Just using fortunately would be a lot clearer in this context.

• Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Might be good to wikilink Radium.

  linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• This isn't really a prose thing, but I notice a paucity of images in the middle sections. The diagram of the Auger effect might be good at the beginning of the Beta Radiation section. More importantly, there's gotta be something that fits for the Nazi Germany, Transmutation, and Nobel Prize for nuclear fission sections, right?

  Added Auger effect diagram. Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  I would love to be able to use this image Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• The exhibition table being left-aligned creates a weird break in the text in combination with the massive Frisch quote. Might be better to right-align it.
  • Moreover; the Frisch quote is nice, but it is massive. Could there be a way to pare it down a bit more with a (...) or two?

    Pared it down. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• The bust of Meitner image is a bit low-res and hard to make out. What about "file:Lise Meitner Denkmal vor dem Lise-Meitner-Wohnheim in Kaiserslautern2.jpg"? Bit more photogenic.

  Switched images as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

That's all for now. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: These changes look great! Happy to Support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Comments by TompaDompa

This looks interesting. I'll try to find the time to review it in the next few days. As an initial comment, "what was now Nazi Germany" in the WP:LEAD would make more sense to me as "what was by then Nazi Germany". TompaDompa (talk) 03:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

Hi Hawkeye7, my comments:

• Provide a translation from German for her thesis in the infobox, as done in the body?

  Provided. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Could we add Phillip Meitner in the infobox?

  Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to freethinker (freethought)?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Isn't the 1906 portrait of Meitner creating a WP:SANDWICH with the infobox? Consider moving it down a little?

  Moved image down. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Gloss Matura in one or two words per NOFORCELINK?

  Glssed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Maxwell Formula (probably Maxwell's equations)?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Is the link to Montreal necessary?

  deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• "and settled as radioactive dust": "had settled"?

  Don't see the need, but changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Austrian Army (Imperial-Royal Landwehr)?

  That would be incorrect. Hahn served in the Prussian Landwehr. He was German; Meitner was Austrian. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to tantalum?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to radium-226?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• "proposed of the nucleus": remove the "proposed"?

  Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to technetium?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Geiger counter?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to George de Hevesy?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to American Physical Society and Physics Today?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Oskar Klein?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Erwin Schrödinger?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Max Perutz?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Provide translated titles and journal names for refs #16, #18, #42, #55, #146, Stolz 1989?

  Provided. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Provide an archive url for ref #168?

  Not possible, I'm afraid. Substituted a new reference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Provide a link for ref #136?

  Don't have one. switched to another source.

• In the biblio, link to Nicholas Dawidoff, Willy Ley?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Provide publication locations for Sexl and Hardy 2002, Stolz 1989?

  Provided. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Why have we not used the sources in the Further Reading section in the article? If they don't have anything unique, I would suggest removing them; if they do, then you can always include them in the biblio and cite them.

A fine article overall, only the source formatting seems to be a bit off. Matarisvan (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)