Talk:9/11 truth movement

This article was nominated for deletion on 19 May 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

9/11 +the Neo-Con Agenda Symposium

An article under this title all ready exists! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_%2B_The_Neo-Con_Agenda_Symposium

Some general comments

Would interested editors please note that Shadow Government: 9-11 and State Terror by Len Bracken was omitted from the "Origin" section of the article. It was published in September 2002 by Adventures Unlimited Press and was favorably reviewed by the Village Voice on the one-year anniversary. My reading for the book was covered by the Washington Post. In the book I present the state-terror thesis and the offensive-defensive theory of terrorism, describing 9/11 as an indiret defensive attack. (I had previously published a general theory of civil war and will reprise the offensive-defensive theory of terrorism in the context of the secret civil wars being waged around the planet.) The sources in Shadow Goverment: 9-11 and State Terror are footnoted and the names indexed. The book has a chronology and a bibliography. It was widely distributed in the United States and has been reprinted. A Britian and a Canadian are mentioned for their strategic analysis; wouldn't it be appropriate to also cite an American who cast his argument in the purely strategic terms of offense and defense, direct and indirect attacks, and who was writing in Washington, DC where the risks were high. My place was searched and I received identical warnings from two government employees while writing the book. I've stayed with the movement by collaborating with 9/11CitizensWatch, covering the 9/11 Commission hearings for Paranoia Magazine and reviewing Hopsicker's Terrorland, among other things. If any editors need more information, I'm at lenbracken@hotmail.com.--Lenbracken 13:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe this article is unbiased, and can clearly get the feeling that a 9/11 conspiracy whacko wrote it. Please advise. (Preceding unsigned comments by user 69.133.205.8)

Well, that statment of yours 'conspiracy whacko' doesnt prove your lack of bias, does it? id adviec you identify yourself and your bias. (Brian)

First of all, Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor a place for those sort of ad-hominem attaks or any sort of personal hostility. Second of all, while you accuse editors here of being "whackos," it was you (or at least someone on your computer) who repeatidly vandalized the Al Franken article - replacing Franken's picture with a picture of Hitler. [1]. So please desist from vandalizing Wikipedia and slandering its legitimate contributers. Thank you. Blackcats 07:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The pages are written by whoever is interested enough to write them. From that you must draw your own conclusion.

The standing advice is be bold; I'd temper that by saying that this is a controversial topic. Whatever is written needs to have consensus support. What would you like to see different? Tom Harrison ^(talk) 20:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that I myself may edit it a bit to add the common arguments against the "truth movement" arguments. This would make it less biased and let people decide on their own.::

I made some changes and additions. Many more to make. Glad this is on here.

Bov 02:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorting, NPOV in naming

The article should be a lot more readable now that I've sectioned it and sorted the paragraphs to group related info together more. It had been somewhat of a hodge-podge mess, with stuff being added in various random places.

I've also done some basic NPOVing. Most importantly, the name of the article, and the name that the movment goes by is the 9/11 Truth Movement, not the 9/11 movement, so whenever the movement is refered to by name, its actual name should be used. In other cases, it can simply be refered to as the movement. Also, note that quotation marks should not be placed around the name of the movement in the article, as this ammounts to POV-driven scare-quotes. Blackcats 21:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Could someone who knows how to use winkpedia PLEASE list the 10/20/30 or so KEY arguments for why the 9/11 attacks were carried out by top level military/political leaders?

This should be on the FIRST PAGE, because its what 9/11 truth is all about.

This is a good starter page:

http://www.ny911truth.org/resources.htm

Source for it being called "9/11 Truth Movement", please. That last site just has "9/11 truth". — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 09:00, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

This article is offensive and nonsensical. I am no fan of the current administration, but articles such as this one completely ignore logic in every context and conveniently shirk the patent data manipulation "conspiracy theorists" engage in, making them no better than the bush administration. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.151.175.167 (talk • contribs) .

Boost

Whether or not you think it's a good thing, when a well known and respected physics professor publishes a peer-reviewed article supporting the movement's analysis, that certainly is a boost. Of course there are lots of other factors, but this has indisputably brought a lot more media attention to the movement. Blackcats 04:59, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

If you want to quote someone saying it was a boost, go for it. As it existed in the article it was just unsourced opinion. Without a cite, just saying this endorsement occurred, and by who, the reader can decide if it was a "boost" or not. Arkon 05:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I still think it was a pretty clear boost, but in the interest of compromise, until I find a source which specifically states that, I'll simply say that it increased publicity, which it deffinately did. Blackcats 20:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Removal of unsourced material

I think Bov was correct in his recent edit, removing material added by User:69.171.225.186, not because the work was "pov", but because it was unsourced. There were some pretty astute observations in there, but without verifiable citations we can't really include them. Tom Harrison ^(talk) 23:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Get a clue; that pages sources Newton and Galileo. Does being dead make a source unverifiable?

Gee, bold _and_ Hegelian!

   A little rolling back of Shenme's bold Hegelian-dialectic-hiding deletions; 
   9TM is not so simplistic!

Gee, I might want to be known as 'bold' and 'Hegelian', but I'd have to first know what the latter means (Hmm, this _is_ an encyclopedia ... I should go look it up!) The point is that people should be sure _what_ changes and by _whom_. As for casting aspersions, well, I have things to learn too. Shenme 02:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Zinn

How far can he be said to "endorse the movement"? Griffin's book, perhaps, but I've yet to see anything where he, personally calls for an enquiry, he merely intimates that (a) government involvement is not outside of the realms of the possible and should be seriously considered and that (b) He liked Griffin's book.

I think Zinn does endorse the movement. For instance The People's Investigation of 9-11; and I've heard some recent developments about him at meetings of the Northern California 9-11 Truth Alliance. Kaimiddleton 16:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Zinn signed the 911truth statement. What more do you need? [2]

"Within the 9/11 Truth movement..."

"...and a resultant synthesized coerced alternative mainstream of thought between them, thus marginalizing other ways of looking at the truth about 9/11."

was changed to

"...however most activists agree on most of the same points to varying levels according to personal taste or expertise."

I have no idea which is true, so pending citations I've removed it.

I've also reworded to make clear who is saying the collapse was unnaturally rapid and like a controlled demolition. Tom Harrison ^Talk 15:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

discussion of reversions

I have reverted the changes made by 69.171.225.186 because 1) I think they are too sweeping in nature. i.e. I think if one is going to make changes then they should be more incremental so that people can absorb them in steps. 2) The language style seems unclear 3) I disagree with wording such as "divisive parody" and "links to a ring of limited-truth 9/11 sites" and "avoid theories they fear might possibly be discredited by the mainstream media" 4) I disagree with the deletion of the midway LIHOP MIHOP paragraph

If you want to get your edits in I would suggest: a) get a user ID b) make changes more sequentially, documenting each change c) start with the website http://911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml. Kaimiddleton 18:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Kai, I would add a caveat about that page - although the page promotes Morgan Reynolds and Webfairy (no plane at the WTC) and Pentagon Strike (no plane at the Pentagon), among many others, it has an interesting section on the simple physics of the collapses. IMO, I feel it's important to add notes about that when directing people to sites that loudly promote no-plane theories.Bov 20:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

"loudly promote"? "no-plane theories"?? That free-fall physics page does not "promote" Morgan Reynolds or make any mention of "Webfairy", so why would nannyish Bov say such misleading things? "that page" was the only one mentioned in the article which is wise enough to demolish the government's "wacko consipracy theory" without trying to advance any of its own. (Is such an approach just too concise and effective for some people's taste?) http://911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml is very powerful; it should be reinstated and retained, cited as written by Anonymous, instead of this wiki only mentioning (promoting?) sites which promote their own, limiting, theories, which causes scrutiny to be directed at their work instead of at the government's cockamamie theory of 9-11.

Links all over the page promote research questioning or stating that commercial jets could not have been involved in the attacks:

http://users.adelphia.net/~earthwatch/

http://911blimp.net/pentagonStrike.htm

http://911blimp.net/vid_Naudet.shtml

http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/defaulte.htm

etc., etc. (Bov 08:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Hijacking? Ha!

User 69.171.225.186 says: "Beware of people & disinfo agents who hijack (claim ownership of, and diminuize) a truth movement, and of the truth itself, and who also soft-peddle what the well-documented physical evidence proves!" Well no, just trying to take out the hard-peddling, advocacy-oriented, doctrinnaire tone, and state the movement as neutrally as is possible. Morton devonshire 22:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Good, NPOV article

I wish more of Wikipedia's entries were like this...it lists the players without expressing favouritism or bias toward any of them. Great article.

Petrus4 02:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I couldn't disagree more about the quality of the writing. I'm not finding a lot of POV, but the history section is basically just a collection of dates, facts and events thrown together with little concern about whether they even belong in the same paragraph. I'm trying to revise things grammatically and not change the wording (to avoid injecting my POV), but it is qquite challenging. --Habap 21:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleaning up the article

Every time I stumble across this article, I'm confused about just what exactly is the "Movement". Not trying to disparage, just trying to understand. Is this a non-profit corporation? Does it have members? An editorial board? Who is the leadership? Is there a committee who decides what is or isn't a doctrine or position of the Movement? Are we really only talking about a Listserv? If that's what it is, then how can we describe in the article that the Movement has any particular point of view, membership, etc.? Morton devonshire 12:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I can address that question readily since I consider myself a member of the 9/11 truth movement. I see it thus: since 9/11 was an inside job, there can be no investigation coming from the government since the insiders have too much influence over how the government is run. The only way I see the truth coming out is via a grass roots movement. For instance, look at the peace movement or the civil rights movement. In the article on social movement, we have the following:

Charles Tilly argues that there are three major elements to a social movement [Tilly, 2004]:

1. campaigns: a sustained, organized public effort making collective claims on target authorities;
2. social movement repertoire: employment of combinations from among the following forms of political action: creation of special-purpose associations and coalitions, public meetings, solemn processions, vigils, rallies, demonstrations, petition drives, statements to and in public media, and pamphleteering; and
3. WUNC displays: participants' concerted public representation of worthiness, unity, numbers, and commitments on the part of themselves and/or their constituencies.

Sidney Tarrow defines [Tarrow, 1994] a social movement as collective challenges by people with common purposes and solidarity in sustained interactions with elites, opponents and authorities. He specifically distinguishes social movements from political parties and interest groups.

Since this movement has been happening for some time and in some numbers, it is, in my opinion, worth charting its history, character, and claims. Kaimiddleton 19:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I just did a quick revision of the history section because a bunch of details and personal views were inserted which I hadn't noticed, talking about the organizers of events being 'pressured' etc. There's no reason to get into that much detail. Please don't just revert my version because the bizarre comments go back aways so you'd have to revert to long ago. It needs revision. Thanks for your efforts on here Kai. Bov 22:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Can I suggest that we reorganize a bit? Perhaps we could section it by the "format" of the material? Like put all the books in one section, statements by elected officials in another, rallies in a third? Lumping all of it into history doesn't work real well. Maybe a section for LIHOPs, one for MIHOPs and another for those that disagree with the movement? --Habap 22:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I'm removing links to individual websites because those can be found on the Researchers page. I think it could be better to focus here on events and markers in the timeline of the movement rather than to get into a war on particular websites being on here or not. Who is and who is not a notable member of the movement? I don't really want to go there on here, so I think it might be best to leave those links off. Bov 17:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's a comment from Bov that I'm moving from my talk page, in case anyone else has thoughts:

Hi Tom,

The link I removed from that page is to a website which has never been actively involved in the 9/11 truth movement and appears to be asserting claims that most don't agree with, such as the idea that commercial jets did not hit the WTC towers.

I think that mainly those researchers listed already on the Reseachers page who have been active should be linked to, but if we link to every site out there that has never done a thing in the movement, we are getting into a mess. Tons of websites exist that scream about chemtrails and 9/11 and ufos - they are not necessarily researchers or activists, or have any notable involvement in the movement, but have a website. Bov 17:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I understand Bov's point, but I'd be wary of defining the 'movement' to exclude those whose opinions might be embarassing to people further from the fringe. Tom Harrison ^Talk 02:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm deleting all specific references to researchers in the characteristics section so there is no apparent bias, since the promoter of 911blimp seems determined to list his information there and to include the word 'anonymous,' which I don't think is appropriate for a 'truth movement.' His page, unfortunately, also links to alot of the worst and most discredited theories and researchers. He has never attended or been invited to a conference and he is a known disruptor on discussion threads. I believe his intentions are good, but he has a hard time getting along with others and is not prominent in the movement. I am deleting external references at the bottom of the page because those do not specifically discuss the 9/11 truth movement, but promote particular views. This is becoming an issue on all the pages of research questioning the official version, so it would be good to have a policy. I suggest that specific researchers' links should stay on pages that focus on specific researchers, i.e., the Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 page. Bov 20:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It sure would be nice if anyone could find one piece of truth that would discount the "official reports"...until then, maybe this article should be retitled 9/11 nonsense movement.--MONGO 05:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I it might be better to link a variety of sites to give the reader an idea of the variety of opinion that exists in the 9/11 truth community. I've restored a couple, and when I get a chance I'll do a web search an see what's out there. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:46, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, so I'm removing one which has nothing to do with any information about the 9/11 Truth Movement - we can jam this page solid with each person's website promoting their own theories, but as you are aware Tom, we already have a page for that. Restoring links without first reading them doesn't seem like a good policy. Bov 07:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

This page cannot be the POV fork for 'reputable' theories. We need to objectively describe the movement. Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Tom, I think the links you added are fine. The point is not to divide things up by reputable and not - as much as I'd like to - but by what pages are talking about relevant aspects of the 9/11 truth movement and it's history, talking about events which are notable, that include significant others involved in making that history. If one teenager figures out how to create a website and then puts an image of the WTC towers with the planes hitting on it and says '9/11 truth movement,' but has never attended a conference, never debated on a thread, never posted images anywhere, never written a letter to the editor, never participated in a protest . . . he does not really represent the movement as far as this page is concerned -- he represents one person in the world who agrees with the movement and participates in a minor way, but he is not significantly active. He contributes, but we cannot include everyone who makes a page with a photo of the towers on *this* page. If you want to jam up the researchers page, be my guest. But even on there I've seen others discuss the fact that people on there should have a degree of notability to the issue. Bov 18:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The website titled '9/11 University College of Disinformation Recognition' is an anonymous effort to try to attack major figures in the 9/11 truth movement -- listed at the bottom of the page under the heading 'web of disinformation' are 911truth.org, 911visibility.org, cooperativeresearch, deception dollar, 9/11research, etc. I will delete this link anytime I see it posted here: http://911u.org/CoDR/ because it does not function as a part of the 9/11 Truth Movement but functions to label the major organizations of the Truth Movement as 'disinformation' without any basis and anonymously. Bov 19:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It's entirely appropriate to include links to critiques of the movement. It's especially important to include the criticism of those from outside the 'alternative mainstream.' As a member of that movement yourself, it's not reasonable for you to demand a veto on criticism, or to suggest that only criticism that you think is well-founded should be included. To suggest that you will unilaterally delete the link on sight is not in keeping with the collaboratave nature of Wikipedia. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I never said it wasn't appropriate to include links to critiques -- that's not what this is. Try reading the site, it makes almost no sense. Even I can't figure out what he's talking about in the 'points' and I'm a veteran at this! I'm suggesting I will delete the link on sight for the reasons I stated - that all it does is label groups and sites as 'disinfo' and provides no basis for the label. If you can understand the basis, you should describe it here. Others are welcome to defend it staying there, but I see no one else here defending it except you. I've read it, can't understand it, so please explain it to me if you do. What merit is there to 'labels' without any content anyone can understand?Bov 21:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

List

Can i break out the list? --Striver 23:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

How about a category instead? Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Categories are great, but list have their merits to per List of lists --Striver 01:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, everything has its place. I have no big preference, but I will point out that a marginal list article is more likely to get AfDd than is an uninteresting category. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Ill take that as nobody telling me to not to, so ill be bold and break it out.--Striver 03:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Which sentence?

1. "Most people recognize that the unnaturally rapid, vertical, demolition-style collapses of World Trade Center -- especially Building 7 -- are among the strongest pieces of evidence that 9/11 was an inside job."
2. "Most researchers and activists within the 9/11 Truth Movement agree that what they see as the unnaturally rapid, vertical, demolition-style collapses of World Trade Center -- especially Building 7 -- are among the strongest pieces of evidence that 9/11 was an inside job."

I rolled back to the second version. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Bov 00:56, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

The link to Alleged disinformation campaigns within the 9/11 Truth Movement is to a site critical of some aspects of the movement. I don't believe it's appropriate to exclude criticism, or to include only selected criticism. That some see the movement as having been partially co-opted as a vehicle for disinformation is highly significant and needs to be addressed. I'd like to hear what people think. Tom Harrison ^Talk 02:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I've read through that page. A priori I disagree with what it says because I tend to "buy into" most of the sites it claims to debunk. Objectively I can't find any strong logical error in what it claims. One criticism I can make of the page is that the prose is very confusing. It could be this is a sincere attempt from someone in the 9/11 truth movement who has evolved a different position or way of communicating about it than the researchers I'm familiar with. For example, I know that the pentagon has been the biggest point of contention among people in the movement--it's the toughest to explain. It is my opinion that this researcher has had arguments (probably heated ones) with others researchers in the 9/11 truth movement and that he (let's assume it's a male) has concluded that the other researchers must be sowing disinformation. So he takes a very accusatory stance; the wording at the top of the page reads: College of Disinformation Recognition NEW The False-Flag Legend of 9/11, Deconstructed! NEW. His reasons may have some substance. For example, look at point 3 from the page:

Keep people from recognizing that what became of the twin towers was truly supernatural. "Controlled demolition" is now being bandied about. While this does infer that we cannot blame the collapses on "airplanes", it acts as a limited hangout, by distracting people from the realization that something highly unconventional was involved in turning the towers to so much unnaturally fine powdery dust, generating the huge pyroclastic (very hot and dense) clouds, and leaving behind enough heat to keep metal molten for weeks afterward and fires burning for 99 days despite constant dousing with water

Then there's a diagram saying (among other things):

Pyroclastic dust clouds (volcano-like heat) -- thermite: unaccounted for

Fires burned for 99 days -- thermite: unaccounted for

In my conversations with Jim Hoffman, when Jim was trying to wrap his brain around the tower collapses and the odd phenomena surrounding the pyroclastic clouds and fires that burned for 99 days, I've heard him assay some rather wild ideas. So the page author seems to think that controlled demolition via thermite is not enough to account for the effects, and that researchers who talk about "controlled demolition" must be implying conventional controlled demolition (thermite), which wouldn't account for these effects. So I think he has a legitimage point, though I don't seem him offering an explanation either. Kaimiddleton 03:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Video

I did not understand this paragraph, in particular the last sentence:

In July, 2004, Khaled al-Harbi, an associate of Osama bin Laden, surrendered to authorities in Saudi Arabia [3][4][5]. This was trumpeted by the media as a victory in The War Against Terrorism, because al-Harbi was in the scene where Osama bin Laden seemed to confess to having been in on the planning of the attack on the twin towers. But by then, learned 9/11 researchers were ready with their VCRs to capture the video evidence[6] that the U.S. government had framed Osama bin Laden for 9/11.

Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Monopolistic Bigotry

There has been a concerted effort to remove the external link to WING Tv (which I consider a very fine resource, since they try to keep a journalistic integrity about them, they also happen to be closely linked to Scholars for 9-11 Truth). The last removal of the link was accomanied by the remarked that it was a "mostly commercial website". For the person who wrote this, is Infomercial.com or Purchasplanet any less? Indeed they are still up, as they should, please have some moral consistancy. -- IdeArchos 15:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

These 911 truth movememt hatemongers were listed as participants in the NY Commission hearings, which is false. (Victor Thorn and Lisa Guliani - researchers, activitsts; authors of 9-11 On Trial and hosts of WING Tv)

For those who are not aware, WING TV has a long and ugly history of personal attacks on other researchers and independent media. Even 911blogger, which lists practically every 9/11 website, won't list WING TV because of such attacks. It's been disappointing to see people like Jim Fetzer embrace WING TV after they interviewed him, and David Ray Griffin review their book so nicely, because others can unwittingly come to believe they are harmless..

WING TV has brought ridicule on the 9/11 movement for screaming at people mourning at Ground Zero on 9/11:

"The anguish was palpable at Ground Zero yesterday, as family members made their way down a long ramp into the vast emptiness of the World Trade Center site, then took turns reading out the names of their lost loved ones. . . Into this somber setting marched about a dozen 9-11 conspiracists, who claimed a patch of sidewalk to preach what they called the truth. "These people weren't killed by Arab terrorists. You've been lied to!" shouted a woman who looked vaguely like Joey Ramone, holding up one end of a banner that read, "9-11 World Trade Center: Controlled Demolition. . . .Her message played about as badly as could be expected. "I was there, so shut the fuck up. You don't know what you're talking about," snapped an enraged firefighter in fatigues, stalking off into the crowd. "You shouldn't be here. Have some respect," another firefighter shouted. "It's a crime scene," Lisa Giuliani shot back. "We honor them with the truth. Al Qaeda is a concept. This is state-sponsored terrorism." The clamor was all too much for a passing tourist. "God bless America, you bitch!" he screamed in a thick accent." accent.http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0537,fergusonweb2,67726,2.html

WING TV have openly and personally attacked Jim Hoffman, Mike Ruppert and Alex Jones, among many many others.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/10questions.shtml Michael Ruppert refutes some of the sleaziest attacks from Wing TV. http://911review.com/wingtv/markup/hoffman.html Jim Hoffman refutes deceptive attacks from "Wing TV"

They have also attacked members of 9/11truth.org repeatedly, which they call the "9/11 Truth Mafia":

"What Levis deserves is to be spat upon by not only me, but by tens and thousands of 9-11 writers, researchers, truth-seekers, activists, and all good people of conscience who are sick and tired of his Judas betrayal. I'd even go so far as to say that Levis, Hence, David Kubiak, Janice Matthews, John Judge, and Jan Hoyer should be drowned in the spit of our communal disgust." http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/leviswtc.html

Do ANY 9/11 researchers deserve anything like this? No legitimate movement can move forward with these types of personal attacks on others which have nothing to do with academic debate about the issues. fyi - the name Victor Thorn is a not his actual name - upon publicly attacking Mike Ruppert, Ruppert did some investigating and discovered that his real name is Scott Makufka.

Lastly, people should be aware that the website hosts essay promoting anti-abortion essays, among other divisive issues, as well as Satanic books. Here's a couple of excerpts from a book review essay by Thorn:

"In the end, we need to ask ourselves: why is the Jewish power-structure so intent on flooding our culture with the crap that comes from groups like the NAACP, NOW, NEA, ADL, and the ACLU (most oftentimes with a positive spin on it)? If their interests were truly that of empowering the American people, they would denounce these organizations and their messages in a heartbeat. But instead, they serve as champions for their destructive agendas. Why? Can the answer be found in the overall Globalist plan that has, as its ultimate end, the eradication of our once strong, moral country?" http://www.wingtv.net/issue1/clearmoralobjectives.html Bov 19:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the link to Disinfo Campaigns Subverting The 911 Truth Movement From Within; I don't think we can include only positive coverage. For balance we need to include criticism. Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

First, thanks Mr. Harrison, it is important that we proceed cautioussly and make sure that we have it all together before rushing head-on to battle.

As for you Bov, these criticisms by Scott Makufka (AKA: "Victor Thorn", who did admit this information about his name and the reasons for it already) and Lisa Guliani are well foundedand they are not the only ones to say this either, there are others who say this as well, such as Frank Whallen, who can be found on RBN. They have noticed that many who talk about the controlled demolition of the WTC often talk about weak or unimportant points that can serve as straw men for skeptics to toss, or as red herring for dinsinfo purposes (such as what Mr. Harrison above is trying to expose with his link).

Their money quip with Alex Jones is a little questionalbe since I heard that his shows are indeed downloadable, with only the cost of survice, which is simply $5 per month. However, it is also true that he REFUSES to ever mention them or their research, regardless of quality. The reason seems to be that he is, albeit subtally, to gain a monopoly by focusing his listerners away from those who can compete with him.

Jeff Rense also does the same (likely because GCN, who know how great an asset Alex has been, will not allow him and Jeff seems to depend on this job), and since he does not do an exclusively paranormal oriented show, but rather one that perports to be an alternative news venue (which may raise the issue of the paranormal), they are appalled that he refuses to raise awareness about what can be done such as protesting, but will talk about UFO sightings, cryptozoology, and parapsychology (where there are tons of other shows that DO concentrate on these very things exclusively). Their ultimate diagnosis on him is that he is obvioussly there just to make his living, and since he does give just enough information for listiners to be sated on this very important topic, he is all the worse. -- IdeArchos 01:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

People who write articles personally attacking other researchers and call for everyone to 'spit' on those they disagree with are not critics, they are attackers with little or no academic debate except to promote screaming at Ground Zero at survivors. I'm not talking about Alex Jones in particular but a consistent pattern of behavior by WING TV to many other researchers. Similarly, 911u is an anonymous site broadly attacking others with unsubstantiated labels no way to dialog, no actual debate, no sense that there is even a real person behind the website. There are a handful of points promoting no planes and something more supernatural than thermite. I don't consider that a critique of the 9/11 truth mvoement. Bov 22:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

People

I think the link to People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report should be removed from its own "List of people" heading and added to the "See also" heading. There is no way to verify that all the people listed in that article identify with or otherwise endorse the "9/11 Truth Movement", and having the link listed in its current form makes it seem as if that is an official roster of some sort. --mtz206 21:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of any expressed opinions one way or the other, I was bold and made this change. --mtz206 20:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the list is mainly biased nonsense and most of it would fall apart as to why one person was excluded from the list and another included. Everyone questions something about the official version. Make it semantically meaningful or delete it.Mrdthree 07:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The Video List

Firstly lads, good work on a good page. NPOV, and I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been vandalised, or at least it doesn't show evidence of vandalism.. Anyways, on to the question: Personally, I'd have added the video Loose Change, as it's informative, non-inflammatory (At least before the end) and approachable. Best of all, as evident in the link, people can watch it from the internet: It's on googlevideo. Count me as a member here, and lads, keep it up. Cathal 20:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Caps in article title?

Any opinion about moving this to 9/11 truth movement? I mentioned in the AfD lowercase might be more appropriate. Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words states "Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized" - I'm not sure whether 9/11 Truth Movement is a proper noun/name? It is a name used outside of wikipedia to refer to a movement, as opposed to a label that wikipedians created to identify the subject of an article. Civil Rights Movement is capitalized. I'm not sure how to make an internet search caps-sensitive, but most of the first couple pages of hits did seem to use caps, though some used lowercase. In books on amazon for which it was possible to search inside them, lowercase was a little more common: CAPS: 9/11 Revealed : The Unanswered Questions, The Puzzle of the Matrix : Intriguing explorations into the nature of reality; lowercase: 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, Inside Job: Unmasking the 9/11 Conspiracies, Waking up from our Nightmare: The 9/11/01 Crimes in New York City, I am a War President I haven't gone through news articles to see which is more common in them. Шизомби 19:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It could be useful to change to lower case. For one thing, to avoid any misconception of a monolithic organized structure. Also, should not the movement be understood to include non-active sympathizers? A movement is a broad social phenomenon. I think the Civil Rights Movement included sympathizers, not only those who actually moved in vehicles to take action in the South. Along these lines, I propose that in the definition, where it says "its members convene through the internet, and national and international conferences," to change that to "active members." But I don't see an edit link there. JPLeonard 18:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Cite request

"The 9/11 Truth Movement is a collection of groups, individuals,..." I added a request for citation here. I think we need a reliable source who says that there is a 9/11 Truth Movement (with or without caps), and says what they are and believe. Thoughts? Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fair; I think it should be possible to find that either from the books I mentioned or from news articles. To some extent, self-definition of the movement would be allowed per e.g. WP:V#Self-published sources in articles about themselves and WP:RS#Personal websites as primary sources. Incidentally, should the citation style of the article be changed? I don't care for bracketed URLs in the text except in stub articles. Footnotes provide more information without always having to click on the link to find out author, title, dates, etc. Шизомби 23:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the citation because someone immediately deleted the information I posted and that annoyed me. So the info is there in the history if someone wants to add it -- just more links to 9/11 websites and media, though. bov 17:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Membership?

Bov wrote in his edit summary, "rm websites - websites can be listed elsewhere, this is only for articles about the movement" - Who says which websites are part of the movement? Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Tom, do multiple people use your ID, because we've had this conversation before. Do you want every 9/11 website listed on here??? I don't! Not only will that be a mess, but that will cause official story defenders to come over here and try to dump the whole article because it is a 'link farm.' The place for links to websites is on either the 9/11 CT page or the 9/11 Researchers page (which was recently dumped of all its links). There are no individuals' websites which do and do not qualify as 9/11 truth movement pages -- this is a page for information and critique of the movement itself (but not fake critiques that just throw the 'disinfo' label around) and not for individuals to broadcast their websites. If you read the links you will see that they are articles ABOUT the 9/11 Truth Movement, not people's personal websites. There were 500 people at the conference this weekend, if even 1/2 of them have websites . . . 198.207.168.65 01:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that sounds like a reasonable standard; but what about these "fake critiques that just throw the 'disinfo' label around"? Which are the fake critiques, and why? And which are the critiques that you think do belong? Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of individuals with a webpage that can go around saying anyone in the 9/11 truth movement who doesn't advocate "X" is a "fascist" and "disinfo" because "X" is true, while not bothering to make a meanginful case. Anyone can get on a wikipedia page and say that aliens caused that topic to happen and so any other reason for it is 'disinfo' - is that a legitimate critique in your opinion? In my opinion it is not. When someone says, 'Evidence "Y" shows that "X" may be true, but persons or organizations "a," "b" & "c" ignore or refuse to cover this information,' that is the beginnings of a critique. But is it a critique if the evidence is that one frame of a film shows a blurry dark spot that isn't evident in any other evidence, witness testimony, news stories, etc? When there is some semblance of reasonable evidence shown for a theory or position, and not just screaming disinfo and cointelpro etc. with no content whatsoever, then there is something to it. The same for those who try to say that everything is 'nukes.' Where is the evidence? It's one thing to scream it on a web page and another to show actual evidence. 198.207.168.65 00:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Where is the evidence? It's one thing to scream it on a web page and another to show actual evidence." Well, yeah. But irony aside, how do you want to decide what critiques to include? The ones you don't think are kooky? The one's you think are well-supported by evidence? Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you decide on critiques to include of the official version? Oh, that's right, anything that deviates from the official version is automatically a conspiracy theory, so doesn't count. Well, I guess we'll have to come up with our own criteria as we go, which means having to actually read the critiques and discuss them, not just defend their right to exist without engaging in any discussion about their content. 198.207.168.65 22:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Tom - you keep restoring the citation to the one Canadian article (Macleans) as somehow defining about the movement in the first paragraph. What about that article is important to you that shows the characteristics of the movement that the links to the actual websites and events do not show? There are many similar articles about the movement cited both at the bottom of the page and on the researchers page. What's so special about this one? And why only one article? 198.207.168.65 22:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's from a reliable mainstream media source not connected to the movement itself, and is one of the only reliable independent citations I've seen. If you have something from the BBC or the Times, or other reliable sources, post a link. Tom Harrison ^Talk 22:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Both the NY Magazine and the NYTimes pieces linked at the bottom of the page are also reliable sources, so I'll post them. 198.207.168.65 19:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That's okay if you want, but it looks like one is specifically referenced in the last paragraph of Evolution. Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Definition

You realize that this diff discredits the entire article, as it states that the "movement" supports government conspiracy theories, while the previous context included those people and organizations who think the government has no idea what's going on. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the 9TM includes "agnostics" who say "we don't know the truth" and only ask for an independent investigation. JPLeonard 18:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I do think it's appropriate to note that some people think the movement has been co-opted by disinformation agents, if that's an accurate summary of their views. Of course it has to be cited, not given undue weight, etc. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Removing Dead Internal Links

I'm removing the internal links that go to pages that don't exist anymore, and ones that have little relevance. Additionally, the ST911 link should not be listed there or we can put a link to every other 911 research group, website and person -- there will be dozens and it will be a mess. Please don't revert this correction. The Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 page is the page where everyone can have their link. This page is about the movement overall and while individuals are mentioned in the text, they are not linked to at the bottom separately. bov 18:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The dead links should be deleted, but links to a live, relevant article (such as Scholars) should be kept somewhere in the article. I don't think it necessary for them to be in the See also, but the link should be there. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The scholars are a 9/11 research group, just like 911truth.org, and WINGTV and Loose Change and everyone else under the sun. I've already stated why we can't only have st911 on here and not everyone else. Since you reject that, I'll start posting the links to every other relevant research org as well. Tom? 198.207.168.65 20:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom, why do you want to restore links that go to pages that don't exist? Why do you keep restoring a sentence that essentially says 'the public is WRONG.' Those in the 9/11 truth movement don't say that so it is extremely misrepresentative. 24.4.180.197 05:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge Discussion

I see a note on the front and no discussion. Given that the person who put the merge note on is not interested in discussing the merge reasons, I'll delete the note as this has been discussed before, and rejected.

That said, the info on here SHOULD be on the 9/11 researchers page, NOT here. This is not the page to individually list each person and group. This is an OVERVIEW page. I don't want this to be a link farm and then be merged and gone. There is no reason for so much extra info to go on here now when its already on the researchers page. I vote for summarizing here or moving the new info over to that page. 74.71.26.72 04:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The discussion is on the talk page of the page to be merged into, so as to keep all the discussion of the merge in one place. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Factual Inaccuracies

There seems to be some factual inaccuracies in this article that could hurt real-life people. I have removed the Venezuelan Government and Lou Dobbs from the "list of participants". The "9/11 Truth Movement" implies a movement of people who believe that the government played a role in the September 11th attacks, in regard to Lou Dobbs this video was used as a "source" to show he was part of the "9/11 Truth Movement". If you actually watch the video, it in no way implies a government role in the attacks just government mismanagement. With regard to Venezuela, the two sources used were Alex Jone's Prisonplanet.net [7] and "Online Journal" [8]. I do not believe that either of theses meet WP:RS, if you want to argue that the Venezuelan government is "part of the 9/11 Truth Movement" then please provide reliable sources. Until then we are dealing with real people and real governments and I will removed any unsourced (or information sourced with unreliable sources) "participants" of this movement.--Jersey Devil 22:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have also removed Howard Dean (for the second time, I had removed him as a participant before and he was re-added), the source used was a blog article by conservative pundit Larry Elder [9] where he claims

"Really? Maybe it began when Dean, on National Public Radio, mentioned a "theory" that President George W. Bush possessed prior knowledge of 9/11, yet took no steps to halt it. Two days later, he said that no, he didn't believe the theory. And a couple of days later, he called the theory "crazy."

Has the user that added this "info" heard the NPR interview? Does saying that the government had intelligence that Al-Queda was plotting attacks in New York imply "support" for a "movement" that claims that the 9/11 attacks were manufactured by the government? No it does not. Please stop adding this unverified information. These are real people and despite what outsiders may think we are trying to make a real encyclopedia with real verified facts.--Jersey Devil 22:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

JD, you are using straw man arguements, First you changed the lead to state that the 9/11TM was about beliving USA did it, then you removed everyone that did not belive it. The 9/11TM is not about theorizng about who did it, its about questioning the official version. And Lou Dobbs did just that. --Striver 15:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

We are dealing with real people and with the new Biography Wikiproject we are under further pressure to keep from adding inaccurate material about real people on Wikipedia. A blog article by Larry Elder does not prove that Howard Dean believed that "9/11 was an inside job", a link from "conspiracyplanet.net" does not prove that 400 9/11 families believe "9/11 was an inside job", [10] etc... I am not going to let you taint the name of real life people so you can further your agenda on this article. I will revert any changes you make in which you use unreliable sources to make observations of fact. You no longer own this article and if you have a problem with this you can request mediation.--Jersey Devil 23:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

JD, you are using a straw man arguement. You yourself WP:ORishly changed the definition of this group, and then advocate removal of people from the list. That is neither honest nor accurate. --Striver 15:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Howard Dean, by alledging that Bush knew, he questioned the official version, and that is the criteria for inclusion. He then changed his mind, and that is why he is included under the former skeptics section--Striver 15:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Participants

If, hypothetically, I were WP:notable, and I agreed with the conclusions of the 9/11 Commission, but disagreed with some of the arguments used, would that put me in this movement? If not, why not? (For example, if I believed steel would soften at 500 degrees F, rather than the 800 degrees in the report, making the explanations for extreme heat unnecessary....) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This section seems bais! Scroll your browser window to the heading Participants and only four members will be seen in the whole browser screen: The Venezuelan Government, Iran's Government, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, Hugo Chavez. This will give someone who takes a quick look that these groups or people are representative of the 9/11 Truth Movement, which is not the case. Presentation is everything, and someone knows that. The box has three sections: entity, role, and statement. The "role" does not reflect the role in the movement, but is more of a job description. Why is this needed? I believe the info should be included, but not in this fashion. Once you get below authors, to politicians, it goes to a less destructive format. I suggest that these item not be put into tables. I also believe the order of the subsections should be changed, and perhaps randomized. --Slipgrid 18:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Ill add a line of text that will remove the confusion. --Striver 19:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a Zogby poll to the USA section. I belive it shows that a large group of the US believe "government and 9/11 Commission concealed or refused to investigate critical evidence that contradicts their official explanation of the September 11 attacks." --Slipgrid 02:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

A lot of people listed without citations or their own article to validate their inclusion on this list. Without reliable sources, they should be removed. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Conspiracy theorists

Is up for review at [11]. Thought all of you would want to know. Morton devonshire 21:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

JD

JD, it has an accuracy tag, and the version you reverted includes "manufactured by the government", something that is inaccurate OR, added by you. Please tell what the problem is. --Striver 14:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem has been stated above. Blog articles by Larry Elder do not make it a fact that Howard Dean was a "member of the 9/11 Truth Movement", a link to "conspiracyplanet" can not be used as fact for "400 9/11 families being active in the 9/11 truth movement", etc... I will continue to revert your edits, you do not WP:OWN this article and you will no longer be allowed to use this article to further your agenda especially when in doing so you taint the names of real life people. If you disagree then request mediation.--Jersey Devil 19:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I can agree that conspiracyplanet is not a RS for "400 9/11 families being active in the 9/11 truth movement". But are you realy claiming that Dean did not question the official version by stating that Bush knew? And further, please do not blindly revert, i and other have worked on the article since then and you are hindering the article from developing. Ill remove the conspiracyplanet sourced issues. lets be cooperative about this, you dont own this article any less or more than anyone else. --Striver 20:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I am done discussing why a random blog article does not prove the Howard Dean believed 9/11 was an "inside job". I have reverted your edit again. I understand that it removes the entire table, I am sorry for that but if you really want the table to stay you will remake it again using reliable sources. If you disagree, take it up to mediation and we will see where community consensus really falls.--Jersey Devil 20:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

FFS JD, why dont you just remove the part that you are objecting to? Now i cant bring back the un-disputed improvents for fear of being accused of violating the 3rr. --Striver 20:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

"9/11 + The Neo-Con Agenda Symposium" I am not a member or anythinng but I would like to point out that an article entitled "9/11 + The Neo-Con Agenda Symposium" all ready exsists This article is not disputed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_%2B_The_Neo-Con_Agenda_Symposium

Split proposal

Hmmm. No discussion here, either. Should I delete the tag?  :)

In any case, it's not People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report. It's People questioning the official account of 9/11. I question the Commission Report, but not the official account as a whole. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People questioning the official American 9/11 account. There are enough Striver forks already. Morton devonshire 21:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)\

Don't you mean Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report (2nd nomination)? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Let them be there untill the discusion begins.--Striver 10:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I really feel like this page is ruined with so much information - way overkill. I don't agree that it helps anything. It's like trying to read a phone book. bov 21:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I strongly argue that we create a consensus to re-split the aritcle. It was done before, but since i was to bold, it got deleted. So we have me and bov wanting to split out the list of people. Who more? Who opposes this? --Striver 21:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

fyi, when you list and categorize each and every person involved it makes it easier for intelligence agencies and other detractors easily to keep track of them all - just one click to get everyone and exactly what they are doing. I've also noticed that the people pushing the most loony nonsense to make us look crazy to the public are also often interested in documenting everyone and their websites extensively, getting their personal information, passing on gossip about them, etc. As much as the list on here seems impressive, it's not functional or easy for readers who simply want to understand the movement and its history, and thus, primarily serves to document people as in a phone book for the State Department to keep an eye on everyone. bov 04:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. One page is enough.--Peephole 22:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Simon Smith

An elected britt that says it was an inside job, might be interviewd next week [12]. Im just wairing for RS for it. --Striver 20:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Polls

Removed polls. Surveys of various populations about their opinions on 9/11 has nothing to do with the 9/11 Truth Movement. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 15:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it has everyting to do with the movement - the movement is nothing more than people having a view or question, that is the whole essence of this article. --Striver 15:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

No, if you are defining the 9/11 Truth Movement (with capital letters to designate some official organizing principle) as "a collection of groups and researchers questioning the official account of 9/11...", there is no possible way of knowing if the repsondants of these polls actually identify with the Movement, let alone know if it even exists. This Movement cannot just be a collective of anyone who happens to question it - that's not a Movement, just a groups of people with a shared opinion on something. A Movement (with capital letter) is a structured group that one knows and acknowledges membership within. ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is what it is, just like the anti-war movement. No membership there either. --Striver 16:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so if we accept your logic, then there should be no membership list here, either. Nor should there be any opinion polls, since none exist on that article. This should just be about a movement (lower case), and not an attempt to itemize each and every person who is associated with a particular Truth Movement (with caps). If you want, I can start removing the unnecessary content. ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You see the people in Category:Anti-war activists? Im sure they are in no "Club" or signed any "membership" in the "Anti-war club". Its the same here. --Striver 18:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You are veering off-course. The point here is that a poll indicating a sample population's opinion on theory X does not merit mention in an article about a "movement" about theory X. If you want to list members of this movement, "49% of Pakistanis" or whatever is not a member. Keep the polls off, please. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 20:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

That is the point i am trying to make, that there is no membership, just as there is no membership in the Peace movement. I changed the heading to reflect that, and i presented Category:Anti-war activists as an arguement. The cap leters escaped me since i am not that good in enlish, decap the article title if you want.

The apporpriateness of these polls as a description of people who questioned the "official 9/11 report" was discussed at length at (the deleted) Talk:People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report. Striver now wants them here, which makes little sense to me. I don't want to get into an edit war or violate 3RR, yet Striver put the polls back in after 2 editors removed them. We need to establish consensus on this issue. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 00:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The only thing that happened there before the afd elimiated all discution was that some people argued that article should only present individuals, something that several other people objected against. I am disscusing, don't you see? I am only chainging to my prefered version a few times per day, mostly only once. I know you would prefer me to no change to my prefered version at all, but that is not going to happen. So dont accuse me of edit waring and 3rr vioolations, i am not even close to that. --Striver 10:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Tom harrison removed them as inappropriate, then you put them back with the inaccurate edit summary "re-added unmotivated removal" (his motivation was that the polls were inappropriate). Then I reverted your inaccurate change, and started this thread. Then you put them back again. That, my friend, is edit-warring. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 13:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The polls are important because a key issue here is who is actually right about the events of 9/11, the "mainstream" or the minority of "911 truthers." If the latter become mainstream or even a large minority, then the burden of proof and credibility etc are going to shift. So it's important for all readers and editors to know the lay of the land in the realm of public opinion.

The 9TM page is a logical place for polls on the subject. It's been argued that 9TM should not have links to researchers or entities that are covered under 9/11 researchers. Polls wouldn't go there. But they might also go on the 911 CT page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories. In fact, the Zogby poll is there, under Origins and reception. How about if we link there from 9TM and place all polls there? Or vice versa. Feedback anyone?

Zimzalabim says "a poll indicating a sample population's opinion on theory X does not merit mention in an article about a "movement" about theory X." That seems a very arbitrary opinion. Isn't the amount of support in the population that a movement has for its cause a key variable? If you were doing a history of the civil rights movement, you might well include a public opinion graph tracing the growth in support for equal rights. Zimzalabim is the one who deleted the polls, so this alone is an argument for restoring them.JPLeonard 16:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Texts for deletion

I think the quote from Rolling Stone is vulgar and illogical and adds nothing but only drags down the tone of the article. I would like to delete it with the comment: obscene, non-factual, detracts from the gravity of the discussion.

Also the reference to ECREP (extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof) seems out of place and rather cryptic. 9/11 was an extraordinary event, and it was a conspiracy, those are just facts. The official conspiracy theory is certainly no less extraordinary than the minority one. Since the government has the machinery to produce proof that we citizens do not, the remark should be tagged to the 9/11 Commission first, if the remark is true at all. So to me this seems to be a rhetorical diversion. What is extraordinary is a subjective measure so this doesn't inform the reader further except as to the state of mind of the person making the remark. Further, the remark is probably not true. Proof is proof. Subjectively, people require more convincing of something they see as extraordinary, but this is a problem of psychology, not of logic; the term "require" implies this is true in logic. To turn it around, for what is completely ordinary (the sun rises every day) we require no proof at all. So I don't think it holds much water. Is it meant that ECREP is a wing of the movement like Lihop and Mihop? If so, it's the first I heard of it. There are only 50 google hits on ECREP 9/11 (not in quote marks), and 38,100 hits on Lihop 9/11.

Something can be objectively extraordinary if it defies the known laws of nature, but it is the official narrative on the explosion of the Twin Towers and implosion of WTC7 that has this problem. JPLeonard 17:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Also the comment by Prof. Eager about 'reverse scientific method' is rhetorically void because that is exactly what "911 truthers" say about his methods. Indeed, it is the biggest problem faced by those trying to push through the minority viewpoint. Human beings are subject to perceptual bias at the physiological level, it's how organisms screen input to avoid overload. Contrary to human beings' cherished notions about their own mental acuity, subjective opinion conditions perception more quickly than objective perception changes opinion. Americans clearly have a vested emotional interest in not believing their own government was behind 9/11, because that is extremely disturbing, indeed, it upsets one's whole universe. So I would add such a caveat to his remark or delete his remark. If nobody has any objections, I would like to go ahead and make the changes above. Feedback? JPLeonard 16:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt there is consensus support for the changes you want to make. Certainly I do not find your arguments persuasive. Tom Harrison ^Talk 16:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Discrediting Meyssan

Bov, why are you trying to discredit Meyssan's work? He's the father of your movement, and has applied the same academic rigor to his research efforts as the rest of the 9/11 conspiracy theory acolytes? Morton devonshire 06:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with bov that Meyssan's work is... to put it nice, not central. Several people in the movement that have theories discredit his views. --Striver 10:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As stated in the outset, the movement is occasionally fractious. Acolytes are hard to find. The Pentagate issue, about which Meyssan wrote, is particularly controversial. To use a term Wikipedians can easily relate to, 9TM is open source... JPLeonard 17:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Alex Jones credits himself"

From the article: Alex Jones credits himself with predicting the US Government would orchestrate the 9/11 Attacks and blame it on Bin Laden, or some other CIA asset, etc etc. Could we please contain this a little bit? Alex Jones has also predicted:

• Nuclear war within the next few years (predicted in 2001)
• Suitcase nuclear attack in US within two years (2001)
• Smallpox attacks, chemical attacks, and buildings blown up within six months (2002)
• US government will kill millions of americans (2002)
• Suitacase nukes will be detonated in Iraq (2002)
• International depression (2002)
• World government (2002 et al)
• They're going blow more stuff up (2004)
• Arnold (Schwarzenegger) will save kids in a school shooting (2005)
• Bombing followed by Arnold coming in on a helicopter and saving everybody (2005)
• Osama bin Laden has already been captured and will be delivered to influence the presidential election (that's the 2004 election)
• Washington DC will be blown up before the election (still talking about the 2004 election)
• Saddam Hussein has been secretly taken to Cuba (before Mr. Hussein's arrest)
• The United Nations will take over most of US soil within two years (2002)

Etc etc. The guy predicts a bunch of things all the time, listen to his ranting on the radio some time. It's a miracle he accidentally gets one right only so rarely! Is there a more widely used term for The Nostradamus fallacy...?

Wikipedia should not imply Alex Jones really correctly predicts stuff. That claim is now going into some articles and it's better contained in Alex Jones (radio) with a suitable explanation. If you say many times that known professional terrorists will strike then eventually one of them will strike and presto you "predicted" something. Weregerbil 12:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

We have talked about that, he is a radio talk show host and gives opinions all the time, but how many times have he put up the whie house number and told people to call it to stop it, and even given it an operation name? Lose everyday "predictions" that everyone does is not comparable to dedicating large segments on geting people callin the white house. In any case, wikipedia is not claiming anything, it is just accuratly mentioning that people view him as the originatior of the movement. What you are saying has merit, source it to a notable source and add it to his article. --Striver 14:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Further, read the text, it states that he credits himself with the prediction, and the goes on to give a sourced statment about people agreeing with him. --Striver 14:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. The sourced statement seems to state that there are people who agree that he credits himself with the prediction, not that he actually made the prediction. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And that is all the sourcing that is needed, the article does not state that he made the prediction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Striver (talk • contribs)

It did so assert. It doesn't any more. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And David Icke credits himself as Son of God. Yet we shouldn't spam every article on religion with that information. Wikipedia is not be a soapbox for every crackpot and scam artist who credits himself with something for his own self-glorification. (By the way, Alex Jones talking about Alex Jones on a video clip is not a reliable source. Haven't we discussed self-published sources? Even if someone copies the video clip to youtube or some other video server it's still Alex Jones talking about Alex Jones in order to advertise Alex Jones.) Weregerbil 16:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:911tm

Template:911tm has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.

POV fork of People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report?

So, if the article People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report was deleted because, according to the nom, it was "Original research, POV fork, indiscriminate list with vague requirements for inclusion, redundant" [13], why should the list of people from that improper article be essentially pasted in full here under an equally loose descrption of "Participants"? -- ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, in discussing the arbitrariness of the 9/11 Truth Movement template, Striver claims here [14] that "only people that self-indetify with the movement are included." If that is the case, then this article needs to be trimmed to include only those people who have self-identified as a member of the 9/11 Truth Movement. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that in all of Wikipedia there should be one and only one page on this topic: 9/11 conspiracy theories. That page should be no longer than, say, Byzantine empire. Having all these pov forks and promotional pages is a gross distortion of the importance of the subject, and an example of recentism bias (among other things). In particluar, a list of people who think 'the government was in on it', or 'the Jews did it', or 'there's more happens than we ever know' is about as informative as a list of old men I saw at the coffee shop this morning. Tom Harrison ^Talk 15:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

serendipity

Whoever is adding stuff to the page is filling it with links to subtley anti-semitic sites (serendipity.li) and people who attack other researchers openly while advocating lunacy like the idea that the plane crashes at the WTC were done by 'video fakery.' Please look at what you are doing. These additions don't help anything.

On serendipity:

"But Serendipity also hosts hateful attacks on some of the hardest working 9/11 activists (see http://serendipity.ptpi.net/wot/fake_opposition.htm for a particularly ugly example), and promotes the webfairy / pod hoaxes.

Their page http://www.serendipity.li/wtc_other_sites.htm purports to be a comprehensive list of 9/11 pages, yet it is a mix of accurate information and suspect claims. The Serendipity comments about Mike Ruppert's site blatantly misleads the reader:

'This has long been regarded as one of the most perceptive sites concerning both 9/11 and peak oil. That Ruppert supports the official lie that 9/11 was an "Al Qaeda" operation should make one wonder.'

A simple review of virtually any article at www.fromthewilderness.com quickly exposes Serendipity's claims as false. Why does "Serendipity" promote disinformation about Ruppert's work -- it should make one wonder. Perhaps Serendipity is trying to discourage people from reading Ruppert's book "Crossing the Rubicon," which details Cheney's complicity in 9/11. Who benefits from that outcome?" http://www.oilempire.us/hoaxes.html 24.4.180.197 01:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes serendipity is full of Horse****, but who cares, we are not here to promote or suppres one side of the movement. --Striver 15:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I question the notability of that serendipity site.--Baltech22 01:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

So from the page 9/11 Truth Movement we link to a site that is full of nonsense? What is your point? Tom Harrison ^Talk 15:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of individuals who claim to help the movement but who busy themselves attacking others in it, most often over differences in emphasis. However, Mike Ruppert of From the Wilderness has suffered a distinct fall from grace in the movement as a whole in the last year or two, for several reasons. His emphasis on Cheney is not the main one, but it can be opposed as a "limited hangout" or "regime rotation," in that the real stringpullers are higher up in the invisible government, not the elected puppet government (if elected is the term for Bush/Cheney). IOW, there is a fear that "9/11 truth" will stop at impeaching a couple bad eggs who are relatively minor lackeys, while the real structure of false flag terror and aggressive war remains intact. JPLeonard 00:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Third Party Sources

I see all of these lists, but it all seems to be original research, unless we have citations that say that these people are part of the "9/11 Truth Movement". We don't get to say yeah or nay -- that's up to other sources which we can then cite. Otherwise, I will begin to delete anybody without a citation. Morton devonshire 02:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. We need citations that they, using Striver's words [15], self-identify with the 9/11 Truth Movement. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 03:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we need citations, and as is evident, i am constantly working on it. And yes, i am constantly woking on finding quotes were people embrace the 9/11 Truth Movement stance of questioning the official view. I propose you help me in doing that, that is, unless you do NOT want to see the list sourced, but rather deleted. --Striver 15:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

A list of people who happen to "embrace the 9/11 Truth Movement stance of questioning the official view" should be deleted. This article is supposed to be about the 9/11 Truth Movement, and shouldn't inculde a laundry list of people who happen to have said something that happens to be similar to what the Movement believes. I might say that "I think civil liberties are important," but that doesn't mean I should be listed on the ACLU page as a member or participant, unless, using your words [16], I've "self-identified" with that movement. ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The comparision is lacking, the ACLU is an organizations, this is a movement, just as the peace movement. Movements do not have membership per definition, organizations does. This article statrts with "The 9/11 Truth Movement is a collection of groups and researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 who disagree with the mainstream media's account of the September 11, 2001 attacks. " and the section we are talking about states "Below are a list of people that have publicly questioned in a negative sense the offical account of the 9/11 Attacks." and are quoted to that effect. There is no loose conections or original research involved. The list is verified by first hand quotes and are relevant to the article. The people listed have self-identified with that movement by embracing what the movement is about: - the only way to be included in a movement. The notion that you need a membership card to be included in a movement is false. --Striver 18:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You are trying to have it both ways. You want this to be an official "9/11 Truth Movement" with capital letters, media mention, etc, and you also want anyone who ever said anything contrary to the MSM/gov't account of 9/11 to automatically be included. This article is not a list of people that have publicly questioned in a negative sense the offical account of the 9/11 Attacks. If you really want this to be compared to the peace movement, then an attempt to enumerate and list members is futile and unnecessary. Just make the article about the movement, and not cluttered with lists and polls of people that have already been rejected from other articles. ZimZalaBim (talk) 18:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

In niether this interpretation nor the one above do I see any justification for includeing the polls. I have removed them. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure they are, they are quoted all over the internet. Did you bother to read the introduction to the article? Here it is again for you: "The 9/11 Truth Movement is a collection of groups and researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 who disagree with the mainstream media's account of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The 9/11 Truth Movement is informal, decentralized and occasionally fractious; its members convene by electronic mailing lists, ongoing local meetings, and national and international public conferences". See? Lots of people. How do you figuere out how many? They have no membership list. What do you do? You poll them. --Striver 18:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the polls was not to determine membership or self-identification with the "9/11 Truth Movement" They are not relevant here. (deja vu). ZimZalaBim (talk) 18:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Bro, why are you insisnting on "determine membership" on a movement? How does that make sense? You think they have a centreal "911TM" agency that you can ask for membership from? I have given a full answer below, answer there. --Striver 19:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Bro, you were stating that the polls were an acceptable proxy to a membership list: "you poll them". And yes, if there is a 911TM (with CAPS, as you insist), then there should be a membership list, or a list of people who, using your terms, "self-identify" with the movement. But if I happen to say "I think peace is better than war" that doesn't automatically make me a member of the peace movement. I just happen to hold an opinion that is in concert with that group of people. That said, if we accept your description of this as an "informal, decentralized and occasionally fractious" movement, then any attempt to list members is fruitless. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 21:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Response

What is the "Response" section for? What is being responded to? Seems to be a list of media/gov't responses and reactions to the various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Unless these include specific mention that they are in response to the "9/11 Truth Movement," the list should be moved to 9/11 conspiracy theories. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 18:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

"Conspiracy theories" is what the Media and Government call the movement. But they refere to themselves as the "9/11 Truth Movement". Yes, with capital leters and all [17] [18] [19] [20] [21]. It is best described by this:

“ When GNN asked me to report on the “9/11 Truth Movement,” I shuddered. How can one attempt to describe this fractious, nation-wide phenomenon of disparate researchers and activists, spread far and wide, but tied umbillically on the web? This amorphous network of folks has only recently become known as “The 9/11 Truth Movement” [22] ”

See? It is a movement, its not a club or a oraganiztaion. They do not have any membership list, they do not hand out buissness cards, and they do capitalize the leters. The name is what an umbrella term they self-indetify with. And yes, people are in the movement on the sole issue of rejecting the government version, that is they do not belive NITS, 9/11 Commission, Popular Mechanics and such. You will never hear anyone say "i belong to the 9/11 Truth_Movement", but you will hear them say "9/11 was an inside job". The people having those stances are very easy to identify, and you will see them talking about "Truth" and such. You will hear them talk about the "9/11 Truth Movement", but very rarly say they are in it. That is the nature of the way they talk, its their language.--Striver 18:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

So as long as someone mentions "9/11" "government coverup" and "truth" they can be listed here? That's not sufficient criteria for an encyclopedia article (this is an encyclopedia, remember). Feel free to make your own list on your own webspace. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 21:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Musicians

How does singing the hook on a song that suggests the US gov't was behind 9/11 automatically make someone a member of the "9/11 Truth Movement"? What about the background singers? Or the audio technician? Or the janitor who cleanup up the studio? These "membership" distinctions are arbitrary, and not encyclopedic. We need reliable sources indicating that these living persons "self-identify" with this Movement. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 21:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

What up with this "membership" stuff? Why are you insisting on a "membership"? No offence, but it is really starting to feel like a straw man. Do you see any audio technician or janitor in the list? How is that not a straw man? Please, read the heading again "List of those questioning". It is not "List of members", see? i see your point with "if i said peace is better than war, whould i be in the peace movement?". That is a legit question, and here is my answer: Saying "Peace is better than war" is not controversial, it does not make you become branded as an kook in all major television chanels, trying to teach about it in schools will not make politicians wanna eat you alive. It is true that both are movemnts, but there is more to it: One is mainstream and cool, the others are branded semi-traitors. Thus, making a "peace is good" statment in public not anything notable, but going live like Charlie Sheen and saying what he did, that takes balls. With this, i conclude that it is trivial to say "peace is good" and you will need to be doing what George Galloway is doing for it to be considered non-trivial. But as far as this movement goes, it is now non-trivial and actualy very notable to say "bush knocked down the towers". Want proof. go to the shop and cry "Peace is good" and then compare the reaction to shouting "Bush knocked down the towers". The last line only will get you healines in reuters and having your song sencured on non-explicit content, ask Jadakiss. So as long as people get headlines for sayin "Bush did it", that alone will be enough notability to be considered in the movement. Actualy, you do not even need to go that far, as Charli Sheen did not even say that Bush did it, and he went throuhg FOX news, CNN, and all major newspapers. As is now, only rejecting and questioning the al-qaeda theory in public is notable enough to get you headlines. Actualy, even sugesting Bush had prior knowledge and let it happen on purpose will cost you your political carrer. We do not need to go trough this, we all know that it is notable to question in public the official version. And that will bring you in the inside what this umbrella term is defining. so JD, stop with your straw man "He did not say bush did it", just wanting to creat an international investigation after meeting Mr Rodriguez at lenght is notable enough--Striver 10:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

btw, nowere in the George Galloway article do you see him saying "i am a part of the peace movement", yet the peace movement template is there. That is simply because you do not need to state "i am in this movement" to be considered such, actions talk higher than words. And that is a fact, you dont need to say "i am a murdered" to become one, you become one when you murder people. You become a part of the 9/11 Truth Movement when you publicly state that there is a hidden truth to 9/11, not when you say "i am in the 9/11 Truth Movement". Nobody says that, yet the movement exists and people refer to it. --Striver 10:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It is important because you are claiming these people assign to a particular set of beliefs with anything but the anecdotal evidence you can find: see WP:OR and WP:BLP. if I recall, there has been a huge debate over whether we can label living people as "conspiracy theorists" per the WP:BLP policy, yet you see no problem placing anyone who utters a "Bush did it" on this list.

So, let's take a controversial example: Since Mel Gibson apparently made an anti-semetic remark, should he be listed as a member/participant of the neo-nazi movement?

So, again, any attempt to list people associated with this group must adhere to WP:OR and WP:BLP policies, and we should be using the criteria you've suggested elsewhere that they "self-identify" with the movement. It is not for you or me to say someone is a member of this movement. We are encyclopedists. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Further, you claim that these lists are ok because the section intro states ""List of those questioning." Well, that's not the purpose of an encyclopedia article about a movement. The peace movement doesn't include a "list of people questioning war policy" and the civil rights movement doesn't include a "list of people questioning white supremacy" Such a list simply doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article about the "9/11 Truth Movement". IFF someone says "guess what, I'm a member of the 9/11 Truth Movement" or "I identify with those in the 9/11 Truth Movement" then we can add their name here. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ill get back to this, just dumping [this right now... --Striver 16:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a repository of links or your own bookmarking space. Please don't "dump links" here. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

DO NOT REPEAT THAT!!! DO NOT TOUCH MY EDITD ON TALK PAGE!!! --Striver 17:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not shout, and what part of WP:NOT are you not understanding? Just dumping links on a talk page is not what talk pages are for. If you don't have the time to actually make constructive contributions or comments, then use the bookmark function on your browser and come back to it later. This page is not your personal web space in order to archive links. ZimZalaBim (talk) 18:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:LIVING

So, here Striver removed mention of Bob Mcilvaine's association with the 9/11 Truth Movement from his bio [23], invoking WP:LIVING. If that's the case, we need to apply WP:LIVING to every person on this page. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And remove McIlvaine from it! --ZimZalaBim (talk) 16:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I have done so. Please provide high quality sources for any individual that you would like readded to the list. Thank you. JBKramer 13:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Ken Jenkins

There is one source quoted showing Ken Jenkins as part of this group of 9/11 deniers. However, the source lists him as a videographer and activist. This should be removed unless it can be proved that this is the same person as the actor. 67.10.133.121 03:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ken Jenkins is a common name, a number of them come up on google. The Ken Jenkins in question here has long hair, lives in Berkeley and has made several "9/11 Truth" DVD's. I think he is too busy doing that to be an actor. I have never even heard of Ken Jenkins the actor, anyway, I don't see having a common name as a reason for removal. JPLeonard 23:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Ken Jenkins was originally listed in this article with the word (actor) after his name. THAT Ken Jenkins is one of the stars of NBC sitcom "Scrubs" and is a well known character actor who has been on "Star Trek: The Next Generation", "Homefront" and many other dramas. Just to clarify. Looks like his name's been removed. 67.10.133.121 10:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

New film / deletion vote

Please vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/9/11: Press for Truth. Badagnani 06:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

TRUTH!

This is all true! George Bush set it all up. He killed those people in the towers. Republicans helped! People don't exist, its just a deception by the government. There is no such thing as government, in fact its your imagination. You don't exist, its actually your imagination. You're imagination doesn't actually exist, its just the imagination of George Bush. George Bush doesn't exist, he's just an illusion created by the government. I'm not typing this, the government is. 66.218.14.171 00:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Should I go on, or is my point clear by now.

- If you had your choice, we would be living under a dictatorship. Unlike you, the truth movement believes that the 3,000 people who died on 9/11 deserves on independent investigation, not a half-baked so called investigation run by no other than HENRY KISSINGER. Did I forget to mention that it took over a year and a half before investigations even began? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.116.136.10 (talk • contribs) 18:07, January 31, 2007 (UTC)

Hologram Theory

Someone was telling me all about Hologram Theory today and how its causing waves even within the 9/11 Truth Movement because its so contoversial. I looked for it on Wiki, but couldn't find ANY info on it, or its leading researcher Rosalee Grable so I started articles on both. Hopefully you 9/11 'truthers' know much more about this topic, and will add to these articles on this important subject. The 9/11 truth movement is not really my field of study. Good luck. - F.A.A.F.A 08:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the hologram theory related to the brains-in-vats theory? Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Why would someone start articles in an area they admit they know nothing about? Sounds like a fitting end for those articles. bov 01:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 07:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Full of grammer and spelling errors

As I read this article its full of grammar and spelling errors. It needs some proofreading. --63.228.246.132 16:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

including "left," "right," pacifists, paleoconservatives, Greens, anarchists, and libertarians.

This whole article is a POV-saturated mess, but let's start at the top:

The 9/11 Truth Movement embraces a political diversity of members, including "left," "right," pacifists, paleoconservatives, Greens, anarchists, and libertarians.

This statement is unsupported by citation, and I believe it to be false. Unless examples of subscribers to these conspiracy theories can be found in each of those seven categories, they should be deleted.

The statement is a POV-motivated attempt to mislead readers into thinking that the 9-11 conspiracy theorists are not just wacky leftists. But the truth is that the "9-11 Truth Movement" is a movement of the Left.

Where are the conservatives (paleoconservative or other) who believe these conspiracy theories? There are none. In fact, where are there any prominent political figures from any party of the American political spectrum who believe these conspiracy theories? There aren't any. The 9-11 conspiracy theorists come from the extreme Left of the political spectrum, so extreme than they are outside the range of electability.

What's more, the phrase "embraces a political diversity of members" is POV-promoting hogwash, too. These conspiracy theorists do not "embrace" political diversity, they just embrace paranoia and Bush-bashing. The purpose of that phrase is to make the reader believe that the "movement" is broad and reputable, when it is neither.

Where are the citations of examples of adherents in each of these (overlapping) political categories?

"right"

"paleoconservatives"

Greens

anarchists

libertarians

There might be anarchists and Greens who believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories, but those folks are so extreme that they are outside the range of electability in the USA. But even for them, if there are no citations to show that they subscribe to these conspiracy theories then the article should not say they are part of the "movement."

The "right" and "paleoconservative" categories are even more obviously fiction, and the "libertarian" category probably is, too. There are neither significant numbers nor prominent political figures in those categories who silly enough to believe these conspiracy theories, and the article certainly contains no citations to show that there are.

I propose to replace:

The 9/11 Truth Movement embraces a political diversity of members, including "left," "right," pacifists, paleoconservatives, Greens, anarchists, and libertarians.

with:

"The 9/11 Truth Movement" is what many 9-11 conspiracy theorists call those who share their point of view. It consists of conspiracy theorists, mostly from the political Left, who disbelieve the eyewitness accounts, scientific consensus, and government analyses of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Instead, 9-11 Conspiracy Theorists theorize that the attacks were a U.S. government plot. However, no prominent American politicians, even from the American Left, subscribe to these conspiracy theories.

Comments? NCdave 00:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah.

You wrote: "Where are the conservatives (paleoconservative or other) who believe these conspiracy theories? There are none. In fact, where are there any prominent political figures from any party of the American political spectrum who believe these conspiracy theories? There aren't any. The 9-11 conspiracy theorists come from the extreme Left of the political spectrum, so extreme than they are outside the range of electability."

Completely false. Many if not most of the notables are libertarian and/or conservative. Conservative 9/11 Theorists - F.A.A.F.A. 06:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. That web page you cite is entitled "Prominent conservatives who question the 'official' story of 9/11," but the title is very misleading. It actually names no conservatives at all, and only one prominant former conservative: Paul Craig Roberts.

I did not claim that there is no such thing as a former conservative. They are rare, but they do exist. There are not as many former conservatives who are now liberals as there are former liberals who are now conservatives, but some former conservatives are, indeed, now liberals or even extreme-fringe leftists. Paul Craig Roberts is a famous example. Arianna Huffington is another. Neither have in any way resembled conservative for quite a long time (though Huffington is not so insane as to believe the wacko 9/11 conspiracy theories).

Roberts now writes for Counterpunch magazine, which is Alexander Cockburn’s Marxist rag, the latest issue of which "examines the growing body count of journalists in Iraq and documents numerous incidents where US troops have deliberately targeted reporters." If that isn't off-the-reservation, anti-American, left-wing nuttiness then I can't imagine what is. Roberts has gone completely off the deep end. He now calls American conservatives " brownshirts," and says that conservatives who write for National Review are like "Hitler and Stalin."

I suspect that the cause of Dr. Roberts' insanity might be a brain tumor, or perhaps prion disease. But, whatever the cause, he is certainly no conservative.

9/11 Conspiracy Theorists are almost exclusively leftists, with those few who aren't clearly leftist being mostly hard-to-categorize nut cases, like Lew Rockwell and perhaps a few Birchers (who are sure that everything that happens in the world results from the machinations of a conspiracy). There are no "notables" from the Right who subscribe to this nonsense. None at all. NCdave 06:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this version?

"The 9/11 Truth Movement" is what some 9-11 Conspiracy Theorists call those who share their point of view. It consists of people, mostly from the political Left, who disbelieve the eyewitness accounts, scientific consensus, and government analyses of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Instead, 9-11 Conspiracy Theorists believe that the attacks were a U.S. government plot. However, no prominent American politicians, even from the American Left, have said they believe that, and only one (Rep. Cynthia McKinney, D-GA) has ever suggested that it was possible.

Comments? NCdave 22:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If you insist on a change and are indeed being serious, it could work if you exclude certain phrases - "political left", as it's an unbased and unsupported generalization just like the original, "eyewitness accounts", as no one disputes that planes flew into those buildings - it's what happened after, and "scientific consensus", as the fact that there are researches questioning what happened is obviously, NOT, consensus.

But I do agree that an unsupported list of political backgrounds is unneeded, and the bit about government analyses is certainly true. However, I would refrain from using the term "conspiracy theorists", as I don't think it's really in the spirit of the article and has a negative bias.

"The 9/11 Truth Movement" consists of a minority of people who disbelieve the government analyses of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Instead, 9-11 Truth Movement believe that the attacks were a U.S. government plot, or in the least are withholding information.

That version would certainly be more NPOV, although you probably wouldn't like it as it doesn't promote your personal opinion. :) 71.252.177.83 08:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• There is no fair way to say this is a movement of the left or right. But the "mostly from the political" left suggestion is nonsense. The Nation, Z Magazine, Mother Jones,Amy Goodman, Matt Taibii The Guardian, Noam Chomsky, CounterPunch etc .. have all dismissed the claims of the truth movement. And in fact, the 9-11 truthers spend a great deal of time lamenting what they call the "gate keepers of the Left." Also, the newspaper quoted in the Loose Change video is actually a far-paleo old right newspaper.

Unclear sentence

Currently the article reads:

"These activists argue that the physical evidence of rapid falls of the three WTC skyscrapers could not have occurred as the result of aerial collisions alone, though these arguments have not been widely shared in the civil engineering or scientific communities."

Is this idiomatic English? Is it the "physical evidence of rapid falls" that could not have occurred, or would it be more correct to state "These activists argue that the rapid falls of the three WTC skyscrapers could not have occurred..." I'm not a native English speaker. __meco 21:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Red Brigades mislabeled

The Red Brigades can hardly be said to belong to the category of state sponsored terrorism. __meco 00:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Template Deletion

The template on this page is up for deletion at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_January_20#Template:911tm [24] --NuclearZer0 21:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Result of the TfD was no concensus. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Scope of "membership"

Is there any consensus as to what exactly constitutes the '9/11 Truth Movement' - specifically is it people who believe that the 11 September attacks have been intentionally misrepresented or is it everyone who believes that there may be inaccuracies or omissions? I appreciate that it may be difficult to establish a definitive boundary to the topic, but I think the difference warrants more attention than it seems to be getting. (I personally believe there are examples of unexplained gross negligence, but I certainly wouldn't associate myself the delusions referred to.) Peter Grey 04:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Norwegian sister article deleted

Just to inform all that it isn't only the English language Wikipedia that has to deal with heated debate over the "legitimacy" of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, the translated replica of this article along with the translated replica of Groups and individuals challenging the official account of 9/11 were both voted for deletion recently.[25] [26]. __meco 12:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Article Bias

I added the neutrality tag. The tone of this article needs to be changed significantly to be NPOV. This article reads like a set of 9/11 Truth Movement talking points rather than an encyclopedia entry on the movement. --Grogan 09:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You might make a few edits so people can see what you want to change. Tom Harrison ^Talk 15:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

How is this article NPOV? It strangely opens explaining what the critics of the 9/11 Truth Movement say. It most definitely is not unbiased in it's present published form (4/12/2007). I would at least change the order of the layout. It would really make a difference. - NoSnooz 13:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

9/11 Truthiness

So, what's the story with the reverts over [27]? A link about the so-called Truth Movement will be a non-notable and uninformative parody almost by definition. Peter Grey 12:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a parody with real contact addresses. In addition to being non-notable, even in the context of the 9/11 Truth Movement, the descriptions given are probably libelous. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 12:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I find your entry to be ambiguous, and I don't really understand what your point is. On the question of whether or not to include an external link to http://www.911truthy.org, I hold the opinion that this should be included together with probably two or three other similar sites that I am aware of which strongly critizes the 9/11 Truth Movement for being hi-jacked by disinformation agents. These are important allegations which the reader needs in order to make a considered judgment about the integrity of the various leading members of the 911 TM. __meco 16:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

http://www.911truthy.org fails any attempt to call it a WP:RS. It might be used as an example of a particularly bizarre 9/11 conspiracy theory, but it's clearly misleading under WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided#2, as it pretends to be written by some of the more normal conspiracy theorists who don't subscribe to any of the stated theories. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Timeline needed

Would some of the proponents of the 9/11 truther movement kindly make a timeline of events? It is at present hard to determine what they suggest the real events, as opposed to the officially stated events, were. What, in their opinion, actually happened on 9/11. E.g.
8.46 - NORAD pilotes remote-controlled drone aircraft into North Tower.
10.28 - CIA demolishes North Tower by exploding pre-set explosives.
...
16.58 - Conspirator at BBC messes up and reports that WTC 7 has been demolished seven minutes before it actually is.
etc

Something like THIS http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_9-11-timeline.html but with the Truther sequence of events as opposed to the official sequence of events.

I think having something like this would be very useful and enlightening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Man On The Street (talk • contribs) 11:18, March 23, 2007 (UTC)

9/11 Truth Userbox

I have made a userbox for Wikipedians who are involved in the 9/11 Truth Movement. Here ya go! Template:User 911truth ToxicArtichoke 00:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! bov 05:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Two Groups shouldn't really be in the same article

Dr. Jones' research and views which use (or claim to use) physical evidence and scientific data shouldn't be included in a page with views that have little more than imagination and speculation as their basis. Since Dr. Jones and his associates that share his scientific beliefs operate a distinctly different organization they ought to have their own page. I suggest this because the potentially valid claims of Dr. Jones are made to look like "conspiracy theories" because they are lumped into the same article/category/discussion as the holographic planes and laser weapons of the other party. As long as a view that tries to use logical evidence is laughed away as being "lazor guns PEW PEW," a NPOV issue will exist. Cheers, BlackVegetable 02:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Jones' "research" does not have a scientific basis. It merely sounds scientific, which indicates a deliberate effort at deception. Peter Grey 02:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of this particular Dr, he does have a point that some try to follow scientific methods and others don't, and should be distinguished. Elfguy 19:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)