Talk:Dinosaur/Archive 8

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Folks - Please sign your messages with ~~~~. Please also try to add appropriate section headings if you are beginning a new topic of discussion. Please add new discussion to the bottom of the page. - UtherSRG 12:19, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Archived talk

As it has many times before, the Dinosaur article talk page has gotten very long. To preserve the intelligibility of conversation here I have once again moved older discussions on this page to the article's talk archive (Archive 6 linked just above contains the most recent discussions). Killdevil 22:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Protection

Just days after protection is dropped vandalism has become a huge problem, should a protection request be made Mikey - "so emo, it hurts"© 15:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Four vandalisms today so far. One yesterday. That's not a particularly high amount on Wikipedia... Weregerbil 15:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

When I encountered the page I checked the edit history, the protection log, and the talk page (including the most recent archive) and found no apparent justification for protection (I share Weregerbil's opinion that a handful of vandalisms like this is not an obvious or serious problem). Pages shouldn't be protected without a good reason so I went ahead and unprotected it. If it's really important to keep a page protected I'd suggest making sure the case is made prominently on the talk page. Bryan Derksen 05:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the history page, I can see why this is protected, but nonetheless find that slightly odd. I find it odd that it's attracting this much vandalism. Has it been featured lately? I mean, it's not like it's a particularly controversial topic (George W. Bush and religion are only semi-protected, whilst Communism isn't protected at all) and Stephen Colbert's been nowhere near it (AFAIK, anyway). RobbieG 19:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

This suggests it is quite a popular page, getting 4,000 visitors per day, so if someone's going to add nonsense it's quite likely they'll do so here. Hut 8.5 19:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly right. It's a popular page, and particularly popular amongst school-kids. When this page isn't semi-protected, it gets a lot of IP vandalism, so I did place the page on semi-protection. A quick scan of the last 500 edits indicates there wasn't even a single good IP edit (every subsequent edit by a logged-in user was removal of IP vandalism). In other words, there's no reason to unprotect this article: no IP has added anything useful to this article in months. I could have gone back further in the history, but I didn't bother. Dinosaur is a Featured Article, representing some of Wikipedia's best content. There is no reason to open an article to continuous vandalism from multiple IPs, especially when we are calling this article some of our best content. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree--with maybe one or two exceptions, I can't think of any constructive IP edits to the dinosaur articles here... well, ever. And this article is a huge target. I vote for protection, for what it's worth. Dinoguy2 02:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I like it protected. Actually, I'd like to see a lot more articles with protection, but that's just me, and would take a change in the prevailing attitudes here. (How many good anonIP edits have ever been made on Bird, Crocodile, Fossil, or the oddly popular vandalism target Turtle, for example?) J. Spencer 03:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not raising an objection to protection of this article, since it seems necessary given the amount of vandalism, but I don't like it when pages are protected as I believe it detracts from the site's "anyone can edit" premise. I appreciate that in cases like this it's the only option, but that doesn't mean I'm a fan of it. RobbieG 19:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's the religious looneys you can blame. No offense to them of course, but Wikipedia is scientific & they keep on adding their creationism drivel to the article when there is a clear cut consensus against it. Just like anti-bush people edit George Bush & racists edit any muslim related article. For some reason, Christians think they can get their view point across with vandalism - go figure. We just have to accept that controversial topics like these will always be protected. This article is a centre pint for Wikipedia (everyone wants to know about dinosaurs... well mostly lol) so it has to be in tip top shape... Just my views.... :) Spawn Man 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Some Christians think they can get their view point across with vandalism. Not all Christians. Just thought I'd better point that out. RobbieG 16:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Dinosaur relation to birds

Aves (birds) are classified under sauriscia (however you spell 'lizard hipped') not ornithschia (however you spell 'bird hipped'). As they are birds I think it's strange that they're classified like that. Any views? Dendodge 20:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It is confusing, agreed. But the Saurischia and Ornithischia names refer merely to a certain passing resemblance in the shape of the hip-bones of certain members of each groups to lizards on the one hand and birds on the other, rather than exact bone-for-bone similarities. Bird-hipped dinosaurs actually have hips that differ in important details from actual birds, in the same way that lizard-hip dinosaurs have hips that differ in important details from actual lizards. Thus the Ornithischia didn't give rise to birds any more than the Saurischia didn't give rise to lizards. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 21:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, & don't forget "dinosaur" means "lizard", when their legs aren't actually lizard-like at all (i.e., not splayed). Trekphiler 03:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Right, and the more advanced "lizard-hipped dinosaurs" like therizinosaurs and dromaeosaurs actually had "bird hips". Birds could really be called "ornithischian mimics" ;) Also, dinosaurs aren't close relatives of lizards, but they were named that because, at the time, it was thought that they were a suborder of true lizards. -saurus has kind of become traditional since then, even though it's totally incorrect. I think it's cool that a number of more recent dinosaur names use -draco ("dragon") in place of -saurus. Or even -ornis/-avis/-opteryx, where appropriate. Dinoguy2 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Nomen quidam

I can't find phororacos. Any tips where to look? Trekphiler 03:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Phorusrhacos. Phororhacos is a junior synonym. Phororacos appears to be a misspelling. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

POV statement about not withstanding "serious scientific scrutiny."

I've removed a highly POV statement from the "religious views" section, but if someone can figure out a way to word it more neutrally, feel free to put that in instead; the section is very short either way anyways. It also doesn't seem to mention creation science perspectives, or source them in the main article (www.answersingenesis.org is a major source for YEC theories on dinosaurs, for example). So that could use some work. The original POV statement is here: "However, these religiously-inspired interpretations of dinosaurs do not withstand serious scientific scrutiny." That would need cited to be in the article, first, and second, many people disagree with the statement, so it reads like an evolutionary-bias statement. Obviously, fine to report that, making the source clear, though. --Bonesiii 13:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree it could be worded better, but on the other hand it is true (and citeable), so I think it should be there in some form. On the problems with the main religious perspectives on dinosaurs article, the dinosaur crowd aren't going to do a good job, and neither are creationists. It needs to be approached from a sociological angle. -- John.Conway 13:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with that statement; by definition, religious interpretations do not withstand scientific scrutiny because they are faith propositions, not science. Science relies on testable propositions that can be evaluated with evidence. YEC, though, does not. Typically I've seen two arguments out of YEC camps, miracles and planting. Miracles: dinosaurs/mammoths/etc. existed in the years before the flood, but God worked lots of miracles and changed all sorts of natural laws to make the world the way it is today; obviously, this cannot be tested, but can accepted by faith. Planted: there were no dinosaurs/etc., but God decided to plant remains and make the Earth look very old to test faith and deceive the wicked. This cannot be tested either.

In addition, I find the wording a bit odd, too, as well as the emphasis, because historically Creationist groups have had bigger fish to fry than dinosaurs, which are safely dead and only come out as figureheads. They haven't made many dinosaur-specific interpretations at all, beyond the Paluxy stuff, and dinosaurs tend only to figure in a general sense in larger battles over evolution and prehistory. Jurassic Carl notwithstanding, a lot of the Creationists who don't follow the "planted" argument love dinosaurs (they often turn up in Creationist museums, after all); they just don't think dinosaurs are millions of years old or did any evolving. J. Spencer 17:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• J, there's nothing wrong with it in the opinions of evolutionists (and, apparently you), but there are things wrong with it in terms of Wikipedia policies, and of course, YEC scientists do not agree with the statement, which is why it is POV. (Let me remind you of this quote from WP:NPOV: "NPOV requires views to be represented without bias. [...] Types of bias include: [...] Religious bias against or for religion, faith or beliefs" [Emphasis mine].
• What you said at the beginning of your comment is the evolutionist definition of "science"; the evolutionist opinion -- what you are saying is (as is usually said by evolutionists) that creationist theories do not fit within the evolutionary model (that is, YEC, at least). Nobody debates that; what is strongly debated is the idea that evolutionists alone can define what "science" is. Most creationists believe in what is known as the Scientific Method, which requires that scientists do not define rules before they look at the evidence as to what conclusions they're allowed to come to. But that is what you just did, in fact; you stated that "science" (i.e. evolutionary science) bans even considering a certain type of conclusion, regardless of the evidence. That is not consistent with the scientific method, in its purest form; that is imposing a pre-concieved belief onto science (which is why evolution is often seen simply as another religion by creationists, note).
• Now, the point is that that section is linking to an article that includes YEC scientific beliefs, as well as OEC and other religious beliefs. NPOV requires that the beliefs of those groups be reported, as a minority, and that the majority belief be reported as well. This means that that sentence would be fine, basically, if it said "According to evolutionary scientists" or the like, and then cited a source. Also, it is worded derogatorily towards the minority view; by implying that creationist scientists are not "serious".
• In other words, that is not a "true statement" but rather a statement of opinion from evolutionists (the majority view; it is true in their eyes, but keep this in mind: WP:TIGER). It should be given preference, making clear the source of the opinion and that it is an opinion, not a fact or truth universally agreed upon, and source cited, as I understand Wikipedia policy. (See WP:NPOV and WP:V. It should also use a neutral tone, which it does not. Also, please realize that in the opinions of many YECs (myself included, though to be clear, I am not a scientist myself; I'm a logician), evolutionist beliefs do not withstand serious scientific scrutiny. The examples are too numerous to count of the evidence contradicting evolution, yet evolutionists do not consider the basic concept of evolution to be subject to the normal scientific method rules; for example, this quote from the WP article: "Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy." Just two quick examples so as not to drag this out or turn it into a POV debate; the non-fossilized organic tissue recently found in a T-Rex bone, which shocked evolutionists, and of course missing links, which Darwin had predicted should have been found but have not been. (Just a few examples from Answers in Genesis; go there to learn more if you wish. I bring these up only because they are directly relevant to the dinosaur article/issues in question.) According to the scientific method, these and many other failures of the evolutionary hypothesis should cause scientists to abandon the hypothesis, but they have not.
• Anyways, here's my attempt at an improvement, for review: "However, the majority of the scientific community does not accept these religiously-inspired interpretations of dinosaurs." Agree/disagree, and please correct me if I've missed some aspect of WP policy? :-) Of course, we would still need a citation for that. Anyone have one? (BTW, someone put the line back in; for now, I'm just going to add a citation needed tag rather than risk an edit war.) --Bonesiii 19:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's going to do -- it's a little weasel-wordish. I'm going to try to find a citation for that statement as it is. Cite your sources that YEC does stand up to scientific scrutiny and we'll take it from there. -- John.Conway 19:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you; and feel free to reword. As for citing YEC standing up to scientific scrutiny, before I answer, let me make clear that I was not suggesting that anything about that be in the article. Since you requested them, though, here's a few. Beginning with AIG articles: Evolution & creation, science & religion, facts & bias, Creation: 'where's the proof?', Bias and faith, and others in this Q&A section: AIG Science Q&A. From other groups: ICR: Evolution is Religion--Not Science, and CMI: "What we believe; Statement of Faith" (Basics, number 3). Also, the RATE project is very relevant; see the AIG announcement here. I don't think these belong in the dinosaur article, though, because it's still the minority view and not directly on the subject of dinosaurs. Maybe they could be incorporated into the linked article, though... --Bonesiii 20:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they will do for this article, because they are not in peer-reviewed journals. If you can't find any in the science journals -- which I don't think you'll be ale to to do -- respected peer-reviewed philosophical journals would be fine. -- John.Conway 20:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, I am not proposing them for this article; the one linked to, however, is focusing on religious belief, for which these would qualify (but that's another article...). I don't think that amount of detail is needed in this article. Either way, peer review would only be relevant if the focus was only on the mainstream scientific community's views of this, but it is on religious belief. (Also, it's pretty common knowledge that there's an anti-creationist bias in the journals that are usually meant when described as "peer reviewed", which makes that a circular reasoning argument.) --Bonesiii 01:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the line you suggest is decent, but a bit weaselly as John Conway notes.

Second, I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the nature of science, but I do note that I've never seen a YEC who would seriously consider the biblical account being wrong. They are not trying to find the best model for data, they are trying to prove their view. If a creationist model explained the facts better than evolution, evolution would be abandoned, just as various models of the earth were abandoned in the 1960s/1970s for plate tectonics. Additionally, as far as I'm concerned, attempting to scientifically explain things like Noah's Flood is impossible, which fits a reasonable definition of a miracle and falls under faith. You either believe it happened or you don't. Frankly, I think it works better that way, too, since the spheres of science and religion are kept separate.

"Absent missing links" is a tired joke, since "evolutionists" do have missing links, only when one is found, Creationists ask about the others that are "missing", until they've managed to convince those who aren't interested in biology that there are none. Every "missing link" found just makes two more "missing links", according to so many YEC arguments I've heard, and I've never seen the missing link that YEC proponents would accept. As for the organic tissue, it's more a case of nobody having bothered to look. I'm an "evolutionist", I wasn't particularly shocked, and none of the "evolutionists" I know was, either. Schweitzer's team has been working on this for years now, and the reaction I've seen has more been "cool!", with some "could there have been contamination", and not a single "protein fragments cannot have been preserved for millions of years! Evolution must be wrong!" In baseball, everyone thought you couldn't make a living uppercutting the ball, until Babe Ruth came along. Everyone thought you couldn't drive an outside pitch, until a generation of hitters raised on aluminum bats showed the opposite. All you need to preserve anything is a lack of something to destroy it. J. Spencer 20:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

• In order: 1) Thanks--any suggestions as per the weasel words? Which words did you mean?
• Yes, YECs believe that there are no conflicts between the Bible and reality, but they do concede that there are conflicts between the Bible and current popular human ideas (this is covered in a few of the sources added above; your posting went through before that did); the idea being that since they believe God did create the world, it's not surprising that they would not find conflicts in the former respect. Also, AIG at least has stated that they are not trying to prove the view, by the way. That may apply to other YECS though, not sure. As to this statement: "If a creationist model explained the facts better than evolution, evolution would be abandoned", you forget that evolutionists, as you yourself said, ban any creationist conclusions before they even look at the evidence. I agree that some scientists have abandoned the evolutionary model for the reason you stated, but many do not. Again something clearly shown in the sources in my above response to John Conway. Your statement is understandable; it's a statement of trust in the objectivity of most scientists. In my opinion, though, it's a naive trust that has been proven false countless times (no offense; this is not about my opinion and I would not presume to tell you what to believe).
• Actually, a recent scientific model for the Flood has been proposed, and it also replaced a past one (canopy theory). See here and here for that, and see here for many other related topics. And if you just think about it--if the Flood did occur, it would be possible to see geological evidence of it. YECs believe we do see it. :-) Your belief that it can't be explained probably comes from the fact that you disagree with it already because you have, as you put it, decided not to believe it. That's fine for your opinion, of course, but that is not scientific.
• As for the missing links debate, you might want to check out here, and especially Archaeopteryx. AIG regularly deals with the alleged missing links. I could simply tell you that the idea of Archaeopteryx as a missing link is a "tired joke" as you did (it has been shown to be simply a bird), but I'm not interested in back-and-forths like that; if you're open to looking into it, you are free to study it on your own time. :-) ( Regardless of how old the argument is, the fact still stands that evolution predicts that fossils should be dispersed randomly enough that we should find as many links as we find complete species, and that has not been the case. Evolutionists are left to try to come up with increasingly faith-requiring ideas to explain this away, rather than admit that the hypothesis was wrong. By the way, you might be interested in the recent trend by evolutionists to concede that even species they once considered in "trees" are actually examples of convergent evolution, a move predicted by creationist theory. Even the famous "Lucy" has fallen to this new view, as have many other "missing links" (see here, here, and here).
• (Quote:) I'm an "evolutionist", I wasn't particularly shocked, and none of the "evolutionists" I know was, either. Schweitzer's team has been working on this for years now, and the reaction I've seen has more been "cool!", with some "could there have been contamination", and not a single "protein fragments cannot have been preserved for millions of years! Evolution must be wrong!"

See, this is exactly the point. Obviously with just one example like that, nobody's saying scientists should jump to the conclusion that evolution is wrong. But the point is that the conclusion is not even considered, because it is banned regardless of the evidence, as you said. Notice what you said over and over in the conclusion; what "everyone thought" turned out to be wrong. That's exactly the point YEC have been making; evolutionists choose to trust in what most humans think, over what God thinks (or what the Bible claims God thinks), and so often they end up being wrong, and lately almost every example of that has moved their views closer to aspects predicted by creationist models long ago.

• Anyways, this is getting to into the details as a debate, so let me again just recommend that you take the time to look into this on your own. :-) Every point you've raised has been debunked by creationists. But we are not here to debate. Here we need to focus on the article. I'm happy to answer questions like those, but I'd suggest that discussion continue elsewhere such as at my talk page perhaps, rather than here. (If someone else continues that discussion, that's what I'll do. :-))
• The standing issue: We need to improve the wording of this line, to avoid Weasel Words. Anyone have any suggestions? Perhaps "The mainsteam scientific community" or "Mainstream scientists", etc? --Bonesiii 21:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This is getting pointless, and this isn't the place to debate it. I suggest we stick with my plan and cite our sources (peer reviewed journals preferred). -- John.Conway 21:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This discussion does not even properly belong here. Further commentary can go to Religious perspectives on dinosaurs, until links to a peer-reviewed journal (on philosophy or whatever) are provided. Citations from serious rigorously-reviewed papers can certainly be considered for inclusion. Creationist propaganda from the Answers in Genesis website cannot. It was a compromise at all to include a section in this article on religious perspectives, and the section can be removed entirely if the result is that it only causes controversy on the article talk page. Firsfron of Ronchester 22:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see no need for controversy as long as the section can be changed to fit NPOV. :-) Nothing needs added to the rest of what you said, I think, except of course that "propoganda" is a POV statement as well... --Bonesiii 23:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll knock off too, since it certainly is getting tangential. J. Spencer 02:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Existence

This article should be reworded to say that dinosaurs didn't exist, and that they were actually just giant birds. Scorpionman 20:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Not all of them, just the ones people like, with teeth and claws, and the ripping and the biting and the *hurting* glayvin! :) Actually, it's the other way around. Let's rewrite birds to say they don't exist, but are just tiny dinosaurs. J. Spencer 20:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Heh. The Simpsons rule(s). Actually, obviously not even all theropods were feathered, and even though they're probably the most popular dinosaurs, I'm sure the sauropods enjoy some measure of popularity. I'm partial to the ceratopsians, personally, but no one likes them... Firsfron of Ronchester 20:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ironically, back when the first dino footprints were found, they were attributed to giant birds until their bones were found. And then, if I recall correctly, one or two scientists STILL thought they should be classified as birds. But Owen named them as a suborder of lizards, and the rest is history. The thing with cladistics is maskes the fact that the whole relationship with birds goes both ways. Birds are dinosaurs, everybody hre seems to accept that. Why they can't accept that some dinosaurs were also "birds" in the traditional sense is harder to understand. I think it's because it makes them less montrous. *Good.* They are not and were never monsters. They were sometimes big, sometimes mundane, regular animals that sometimes did boring stuff just like birds are. They weren't any more or less "fearsome" than modern bears or eagles (the former may be a bad example, because culture has a history of making them into monsters too...).

And no, the article sohuldn't be changed, because we're clearly using an arbitrary cutoff point between Dinosauria and Aves. That cutoff is based on phylogenetic taxonomy, not traditional taxonomy, and the result is that some things that would have been re-classified in the old days gets to stay in Dinosauria rather than Aves. If we knew in the 1960s what we know now, all of Maniraptora (at least) would have probably been made into one or more bird orders and removed from Dinosauria. But we live in 2007, so some dinosaurs are *also* birds. They can be both now. Which is better in a way, because it better illustrates how evolution works. Dinoguy2 02:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Not sure how serious we're being about this, but reptiles are considered a seperate group from birds by most, as I understand it, at least (speaking of the evolutionary theory; though evolutionists are divided as to the bird-reptile connection -- worth raising the question of which view is the majority). The article currently reports this view in the first paragraph, so I'd say that covers it pretty well, though it could use citation (and probably a little rewording with "known", especially since not even all evolutionists agree with the view; WP:NPOV). Thus, that view is relevant in terms of the origin of dinosaurs, but not classification of the article, since birds are not actually still reptiles according to that view. --Bonesiii 21:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

No, reptiles really aren't considered separate. In modern biology, at least since the "cladistic revolution" of the 70s, reptiles are simply treated as a grab-all collection of lineages that don't belong to anything more obviously distinct, i.e., mammals or birds, each of which quite clearly are a clade. So you end up with crocodiles, anatomically and behaviourally far more like birds than anything else, lumped with lizards simply because the both are scaly! I'm not sure any biologists defend the concept of "reptile" as it stands in the layman's perception except as a useful shorthand term. From a cladistic perspective, birds are a particular clade within the dinosaur clade, itself a clade within the archosaur clade. The archosaurs represent one major lineage from the early "reptiles" of the Permian/Triassic; mammals are another lineage, lizards, snakes, and tuataras a third, and chelonians a fourth. (I hope I got that right -- I'm an invert palaeontologist, not a vert palaeontologist!) Why we consider some archosaurs reptiles and others birds is purely subjective. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 21:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Not much to add, except scales are not the only distinction; birds are warm-blooded (like mammals) while reptiles are cold-blooded. Not that we know that for extinct dinosaurs, of course. --Bonesiii 23:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

We don't even know that fur sure in extinct birds. I've heard a few proposals that Archaeopteryx and even enantiornithes were cold blooded, or at least not as fully warm blooded as modern birds. And even some modern mammals (monotremes, sloths) are not "fully" warm-blooded, though it might be a reversal in sloths due to sedantary lifestyle. Dinoguy2 00:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It's also important to understand that the lack of something doesn't unite two taxa. In other words, while warm-bloodedness may be a characteristic that distinguishes birds from other archosaurs, cold-bloodedness doesn't unit archosaurs with, say, lizards. Cold-bloodedness is obviously the "default" position in animals, what biologists call the primitive state, and warm-bloodedness the derived state. It's derived states that are used to define groups, not primitive ones, since the primitive ones hold less (if any) information. Really, there's not much crocodiles have in common with modern reptiles that both modern reptiles and crocodiles have in common with the ancestral reptiles. And those ancestral reptiles have rise to mammals and birds (directly or indirectly) and hence such characteristics aren't unique or informative enough to define some clade Reptilia that would exclude mammals and birds. Seriously, trying to defend the Class Reptilia is a waste of time. Any clade that includes all the modern reptiles defined on objective, derived characters will also include the birds. Reptiles are the classic paraphyletic group. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 08:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-Avian dinosaurs

Would it be okay (or even accurate) to put a link at the top of the article that read to the effect:

This article discusses the Non-Avian Dinosaurs. For the Avian Dinosaurs, see Aves --Philo 03:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It might be accurate, but it's not appropriate, in my opinion. When people look outside and see a bird, they do not say, "Oh, look! A dinosaur!" Those who are searching for Bird will know what to type to get the correct page, and I cannot imagine anyone searching for "avian dinosaur" as a way of trying to reach Wikipedia's bird article. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, if they come across the term "avian dinosaur" in another article or some other source of information like (gasp!) a book, then perhaps at least having a Wiki article Avian dinosaur that disambiguates (word?) to this article and Aves makes sense, no? Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 09:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

New dinosaur novel

I noticed that the dinosaur page mentions Jurassic Park, an exciting popular adventure that is, frankly, not very informative about dinosaurs. I just read a new novel, Hell Creek, that is recommended by a lot of paleontologists and is fantastic for dinosaur enthusiasts becuase it emmerses the reader in a detailed scientifically accurate world of the late Cretaceous. This novel is a blast. I think the kind of people that would visit wikipedia to read about dinosaurs would appreciate a pointer to a great book like Hell Creek. The simplist edit would be " books and films such as Jurassic Park and Hell Creek..."