Talk:Fred Saberhagen

• Dracula Sequence:
  • Dominion (1997)
  • A Matter of Taste (1990)

that's not chronological - any specific reason or can that 1997 entry be moved down (or is that 1987)? (clem 19:09, 14 May 2005 (UTC))

Berserker novels history

Berserker's Star (2003) shows up as #14 & #16.

Death

If this individual is actaully dead, as an editor indicated, a reference must be found before indicating that fact in his article. Quatloo 00:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for the tip, Quatloo. What part of "as noted on the Science Fiction Writer's Association of America Web site" did you not understand? As a member of SFWA, I've seen the announcement with my own eyes. However, to satisfy officious twitdom, I will also note reference to it on Harlan Ellison's Web site, with further comments by Ellison. Scalzi

First of all, it's not noted on the front page of that website. Second, the website may not qualify as a WP:RS. Third, why was no URL provided to the announcement, if in fact any such announcement exists? For all we know it could be some message base attached to that website, which would certainly not qualify as a reliable source. Quatloo 02:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I think I can see what you're getting at here, but I haven't, so far, found any trace of death-specific rules in the maze of pages behind the WP:RS link. In particular, I can't see why the SFWA site shouldn't be considered a valid source: it's the professional trade association for SF Writers. Your third point is good, but that's a problem of citation, not reliability. In fact, your approach seems about as good as somebody pointing to the SFWA website, and leaving the reader to dig out the actual source.Zhochaka 11:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Do what you want, Quatloo. Oddly enough, Saberhagen remains dead despite your refusal to allow Wikipedia to acknowledge it, and if you don't think Harlan Ellison is sufficiently reliable source in this particular case, you're a goddamned fool. Scalzi

A reliable source is required. Surely if someone as eminent as Saberhagen has died, a reliable source could be located. Ellison may be mistaken; he is not a reliable source by any definition. Quatloo 02:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, for God's sake. He was called by a personal friend of the Saberhagens with the news, a personal friend who is also well known in fannish circles. Your own apparently inability to grasp who is a reliable source in this case is no reason for Wikipedia not to carry accurate information. Scalzi

A "who" can never be a reliable source. Please read WP:RS. Quatloo 03:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Quatloo, do you bottle your own "pointlessly officious" juice or do you have someone else bottle it for you? Harlan Ellison, aside from being one of the most notable names in history of science fiction, says that Fred Saberhagen, his personal friend, has died. He in turn has gotten this information from someone whom the Saberhagens themselves have asked to pass along the information. Just out of curiosity, from whom do you think what you would qualify as a "reliable source" will get its information? If the Wikipedia set-up doesn't recognize these sources as reliable, it's an idiotic set-up. And as I've noted before, when we discover that Saberhagen has been dead all this time, and you've been the one holding up the informaton because you can't grasp who qualifies as a reliable source, you're going to look like a fool.Scalzi

A published source, like, oh, a newspaper. Not a person, not a blog, not a message forum. I had suggested you read WP:RS, which tells you what qualifies as a reliable source in Wikipedia. Apparently you still have not. I know exactly what qualifies as a reliable source. You have demonstrated repeately that you do not. Quatloo 03:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, Quatloo, from whom do you think the published source will get its information? Possibly from the person whom the Saberhagens have entrusted to tell people about his death? Or are you somehow under the impression that information spontaneously generates out of the thin vapor? As someone who has actually worked as a journalist, and has since 1991, I can assure you that the data we put in newspapers and magazines, and in books, comes from "whos." But I think it's cute you tried to pull rank on me on this matter. However, unless you can prove you write regularly and profitably outside this little sandbox we call Wikipedia, as I can, with years of experience to tell me who is a reliable source, allow me to suggest you try not to lecture me about sourcing. You look silly doing it. Scalzi

Once it is published in a reliable source, Wikipedia can use the information. But Wikipedia cannot be the first place to publish such information. Anyway this is a moot point now that a source is available. Quatloo 03:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia wasn't the first place to publish the information; it was published online from credible sources, regardless of your (or Wikipedia's) opinion of them. Just out of curiosity, Quatloo, are you at all curious as to where Locus Magazine got its information? Or does that simply not matter to you, because Locus qualifies as a source and you don't have to think about it anymore? Honestly, this whole exercise has been completely ridiculous. Scalzi

It doesn't matter where Locus Magazine got its information. I don't care how sausage is made. But Wikipedia cannot publish information that is not already published elsewhere in a WP:RS. And yes, the issue is no longer a concern because Locus does qualify as a source. And when put information on Wikipedia you have to play by Wikipedia's rules, not by rules you invented yourself. There have been many cases of Wikipedia falsely reporting the death of individuals who remain alive -- these rules exist for a reason. And this rule we are discussing, it is the most fundamental rule of them all. Quatloo 04:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a franky appallingly straitjacketed way to attempt to determine what is truthful and useful information. Wikipedia is flatly stupid for promulgating such an inflexible method of determining the value of information, and your "It's sourced, I don't care how" attitude makes me vomit in my mouth just a little. It suggests you don't actually care if the material is true, merely that it's sourced. As you say, these rules exist for a reason, but that reason seems to be to allow hall monitors types to have their officious fun, rather than focusing on publishing useful and credible information even if it's not from a specific and rather blithely trusted medium. If nothing else, that's not actually useful for Wikipedia. But since the information is now sourced, I guess you don't have to worry about that. Scalzi

Added reference from Locus Magazine's website. Jczorkmid 03:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. As the trade magazine of the science fiction world, it should be official enough for Wikipedia purposes. Although I will bet you large sums that Locus got its information from the same places I did. Scalzi

And yet the article remains locked. This kind of irrational rigidity is what makes me lose faith in Wikipedia as a repository of actual knowledge. Phil Urich 04:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I had an admin come by to lock it to end the edit war. Sorry if that wasn't actually helpful. Lockdowns aren't permanent - at some point it'll stop being locked again. Nerwen 04:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

A couple online sources:

• http://harlanellison.com/heboard/unca.htm
• http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/2007/07/02/fred_saberhagen_is_dead_but_no.html

Nerwen 03:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Neither message forums nor blogs qualify as sources, and the scalzi.com blog is run by someone engaged in adding unsourced information to this article. None of those can be remotely said to qualify as a WP:RS. Quatloo 03:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The point of mentioning the Scalzi.com blog was that it verifies that "Scalzi" above actually is the author John Scalzi, and therefore isn't just some random passerby. Nerwen 04:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Another one. Front page of a well-known Sci Fi magazine:

• http://www.locusmag.com/

Nerwen 03:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Protection?

Why is this article protected? What dispute is unresolved? --Chronodm 04:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The argument was over whether or not the article should note Saberhagen's death. Read above for details. Nerwen 04:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The argument was over whether his death can be noted without a reliable source. Now that there is a reliable source, the issue is moot. Quatloo 04:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Reading the argument, I think you're missing a few clues about science fiction writers. Whether you intended insult or not, you were dissing people who knew Fred Saberhagen, not some random Wikipedian sicko who might think it funny to start a false story. Yes, I know it's a Wikipedia Policy. It does make sense. But in cases such as this instance, with the emotions surrounding a death of a friend, I don't think you have the necessary social skills to enforce it without provoking offence. Zhochaka 06:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

No social skills would be sufficient to not provoke offense of those involved. When the reaction to policy is "I don't care", or worse yet, "I don't care and I'm not going to be bothered to even read the policy", there is little more that can be done. Quatloo 06:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Since as someone else here has pointed out your own reading to the policy leaves something to be desired, I'd be careful about calling pots black, there, Quatloo. More to the point, the sources noted would definitely have been perfectly cromulent in the real world of journalism and research, and also, here in Wikipedia. As far as social skills are concerned, It'd be nice if you had them but I'm rather less concerned about them than a general competence in assessing what is a credible source of information in this context; your comment that Harlan Ellison was not a credible source in this instance, for example, indicated a significant lack of knowledge about the field, which cast doubt on your ability to credibly assess the data. Which is to say occasionally others here will know more than you. Scalzi

And as far as I can tell from the history log, the dispute was already resolved at the time the article was protected. What am I missing? --Chronodm 04:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Multiple simultaneous things happening at once, basically. By the time I got hold of an admin to look into it, I guess someone else had found the Locus announcement, but I didn't know that at the time because I was trying to find a non-paid-subscription obituary from Albuquerque. Nerwen 05:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I have unprotected the article, as the edit war regarding a reliable source for Saberhagen's death is presumably moot at this point with the confirmation by Locus. As a policy matter, though, Quatloo is quite right: no matter how well someone may have known the subject of the article, and no matter how famous Harlan Ellison is, their personal accounts of events are not sufficient for Wikipedia purposes. No one was "dissed", and no one should take offense that their personal knowledge of events is not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. There are a lot of things that I know from professional contacts in law or publishing, but I wouldn't think of putting them in Wikipedia without proper attribution to a published source. That's how we do things here. --MCB 07:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, bah. The problem with the Wikipedia policy is that Harlan Ellison could have written exactly what he had written on his site, had it published on the Locus Web site, and then suddenly and magically it would be acceptable to Wikipedia. The data are the same; the author, too. The only difference is that Ellison would have to have taken the intermediary step of e-mailing the Locus Web editor. We're not talking about things we "happen to know" from other people; we're talking about a credible person credibly talking about a factual event. There's a difference between these two. Wikipedia should have the ability to utilize the latter. Scalzi

Again and again you demonstrate that you have not even read the policy you're aguing about. Yes, venue is everything. What Ellison posts in a private forum is not usable. If he writes for a qualified source, it's quite usable. Quatloo 07:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

And again and again, Quatloo, you demonstrate that you are patently incapable of understanding that I am saying Wikipedia's policy is stupidly flawed, and a blind adherence to it is foolish. Which, incidentally, is different from not having read the policy, and I wish there were some way you could be made to understand the distinction. Scalzi

Wikipedia policy may be flawed in many places, but the fact that reliable sources are required, that is no flaw -- any policy may be jettisoned except that one. Your complaint is that you couldn't wait a few hours until a proper source came around, which indeed it would if the information were true. Oh, calamity! Quatloo 07:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Quatloo, you are clearly not qualified to decide who is reliable. Are you perhaps a Vogon? As Douglas Adams once said "Of course you can’t ‘trust’ what people tell you on the web anymore than you can ‘trust’ what people tell you on megaphones, postcards or in restaurants. Working out the social politics of who you can trust and why is, quite literally, what a very large part of our brain has evolved to do. For some batty reason we turn off this natural scepticism when we see things in any medium which require a lot of work or resources to work in, or in which we can’t easily answer back – like newspapers, television or granite. Hence ‘carved in stone.’ What should concern us is not that we can’t take what we read on the internet on trust – of course you can’t, it’s just people talking – but that we ever got into the dangerous habit of believing what we read in the newspapers or saw on the TV – a mistake that no one who has met an actual journalist would ever make." Kevin Marks 08:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Quatloo, what is your interpretation of this bit of WP:PSTS? "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about." (Emphasis added.) Chronodm 08:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I point you to this sentence on the very same page, two sentences later: "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them." You are right that a person is indeed a primary source, but as such it cannot be used unless published by a reliable source. Quatloo 08:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Locus Magazine is a reliable and primary source, end of story. please use judgment, not maniacal skepticism, when considering the merit of sources. Note that publishing something does not change its reliability, nor citability. --Buridan 10:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

His argument is carried over from the time prior to Locus Magazine publishing the information in question. He wanted to know if Harlan Ellison (the physical person by himself) can be used as a source for Wikipedia, and the answer is of course, no. If a primary source is used at all, it can only be used for first-person information, and only in limited cases at that. Harlan Ellison The Individual cannot be used as a source for the death of Fred Saberhagan. Quatloo 11:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually harlan ellison was fine too, published on his blog or website, or even in personal communication, so long as it is publishable and verifiable. --Buridan 11:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

False. See WP:RS and WP:Verifiability. Quatloo 11:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

True, see wp:rs and wp:Verifiability. --Buridan 12:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you clarify? (Both this and your response to Buridan.) WP:RS is a guideline, not a policy. To the extent that Ellison is himself a primary source in the case of the death of a personal acquaintance (something that I'm not sure how or why one would dispute), Ellison's personal website would seem to be a reliable, verifiable source for statements Ellison has made, if not necessarily for information about Ellison. WP:PSTS prefers secondary to primary sources, but doesn't insist on them:

An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims.

That would seem to me to be a fair description of Scalzi's original edit. Furthermore, even if Ellison's personal statement were not considered strictly reliable, in WP:Verifiability I see: "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." This doesn't seem to fall into either category, and I don't understand why deletion was more appropriate than {{Verify}}. --Chronodm 11:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS may be guideline but WP:Verifiability is policy. "Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article." I challenged it. It therefore requires a reliable source. Not a primary source, but a reliable source. That is policy. Harlan Ellison, an individual, is not a WP:RS, by any reading of that guideline. In this case, the sentence I quoted in policy mandates that the guideline be followed in such cases. Remember also that the "source" being called "Harlan Ellison" is not actually Harlan Ellison but a private forum to which the general public does not have access. A completely unverifiable situation. I find it preposterous that otherwise intelligent individuals are arguing that a BBS posting somehow qualifies as a reliable source. Deletion is the only appropriate answer for negative information, per WP:BLP (the negative information being, of course, potentially false reporting of death.) BLP policy requires deletion any unsourced and contentious material: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles." Quatloo 12:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

my position is that ellison, if verified, is fine and it would be fine, it need not be published, and i think that conforms perfectly well with guidelines and policy. now we have ellison+locus, both verifiable, both published. the delete policy is fine and good, i support it, but I think Quatloo was a bit too strong after there were verifiable and reliable sources, which is why I chimed in. remember verifiable and reliable sources are judged as such by the consensus, not by one editor, once there were many editors on one side and Quatloo on the other, then Quatloo should have reconsidered his/her position in light of what the editors present accepted as verifiable and reliable sources. Wikipedia should not be held up to one person's standards, but it must follow wikipedia standards, but not as interpreted by only one person, but interpreted by the community. --Buridan 12:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Umm, after there was a reliable source (Locus Magazine), I made no edits whatsoever to the page. And no, consensus is not mentioned in WP:BLP and is not necessary. Poorly or unsourced contentious material must be deleted, end argument. No reliable source equals poorly sourced. These are not "one person's standards" -- sourcing is the fundamental, core policy of Wikipedia. If several editors do not understand or do not want to understand the importance of sources, it does not matter. The material may be deleted without discussion, per WP:BLP policy. Quatloo 12:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ellison is in most people's opinion a reliable source, and once there was verification of the truth of that source, the matter should have been settled. The continuing debate on standards is just egocruft as best as i can tell. I agree with the delete until there was the ellison citation, afterwhich I think there was consensus that it was reliable and verifiable.--Buridan 13:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion of whether Harlan Ellison seems like a reliable source does not matter. What matters is whether Wikipedia's requirements of what constitutes a reliable source are met, and they are clearly not. You are confusing what the words "reliable source" sound like -- what you think they ought to mean, versus what they actually mean on Wikipedia. The two are very different. Quatloo 13:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Aye, and see there's the thing because it is not my opinion, if you read above, it is a general opinion of which you are the only one asserting the 'ought to mean' in dissent. What they mean is whether it is reliable and verifiable, and it was both as clearly demonstrated by other sources. I think that there was consensus that Ellison was reliable and verifiable, you dissented and kept deleting, that is where the failure of the system happened, sometimes we just have to step away and let the consensus determination of reliability/verifiability hold because sometimes our individual construction of rules and policies might not be broadly held. reliability is a guideline, verifiability is the policy, this was verifiable. as to reliable sources: "Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.", such as Harlan Ellison, now you should turn to the principle of exceptionality, which is remedied as I note with 'verification' once you had one reliable source and a verification, the discussion should have ended. That you do not think Ellison is reliable is no reflection on him, it is merely your opinion, which then must be remedied against consensus opinion which I read as opposing yours. --Buridan 13:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Per policy, it is impossible for an individual to be a WP:RS, a reliable source. In this case, per WP:BLP the policy requires the guideline to be followed, so the guideline is policy. It is not a consensus issue. It does not matter what the consensus is. Again you're using words with what you think the meanings are and not what they specifically mean in policy. WP:BLP requires that the information be deleted unless there is a reliable source, with reliable defined in Wikipedia terms, not Buridan terms or "consensus terms." If you read WP:BLP (and I recommend you do, as you clearly have not), it does not even require a discussion, much less consensus. It says the information must be deleted. Period. Quatloo 14:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

wp:rs says it can be an author. blp says nothing about reliable sources beyond they must be verifiable. once it was verified, it was done. harlan ellison is an expert in this field, a reliable reporter of events in this field, and a person of significant reputation. if you can provide some evidence that people like him should not be considered reliable sources in blp, then i'd be happy to consider it, but as best as I can tell you are merely extending the admonition against zines and blogs beyond it's scope. you could delete it before there was a citation from an expert that was verified, heck you can still delete it, but you should not have once a reliable source. Also keep in mind that we are dealing with a fact, not a matter of opinion or libelous information, we are dealing with whether or not a person is dead. It should have been deleted up until reliable, verified sources were provided, I agree. What I disagree with is that you are constructing reliable/verifiable sources beyond the scope of the policy, and acting on your interpretation of what those terms are in regards to wp policy and guidelines. once you had reliable and verifiable or claims to that fact, you need to be careful about blp. --Buridan 14:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP says any poor or unsourced information must be removed. Information derived from a non-public BBS/forum that nobody can verify except members of that BBS, which is where this came from, is clearly poor by any definition. Any admin will concur with forums being unreliable sources. Forums are explicitly not permitted as reliable sources. There is no argument that makes a forum a reliable source. Furthermore this is a very simple application of policy -- the most simple in fact -- I am not going "beyond the scope of the policy", as you ineptly suggest. Here, a direct quote from WP:BLP policy: "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP." That is as unambiguous as it gets, and addresses Ellison's situation directly. Quatloo 14:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm right there with you until the ellison was verified by another source, then your reasoning fails. do you see why? --Buridan 16:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Quatloo, you have misquoted WP:BLP. What WP:BLP really says is "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space." Do you see how the word "contentious" is important in that sentence? Any definition which results in every unsourced statement being contentious is clearly wrong -- there would be no need to specify "contentious" in WP:BLP in that case. The word "contentious" is there to limit the application of that piece of policy to information that is being disputed.

Dd-b 16:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)