Talk:Tang Soo Do

Philosophy

While we are talking about Tang Soo Do, has anyone thought to mention anything other than "lineage," say for example, combat philosophy, code of conduct, or any similar (and more relevant) topics? I cannot for the life of me see what makes Tang Soo Do different from other martial arts, so can someone please get to the meat and potatoes? This lineage stuff is boring and not very informative. --18:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)~

Time to Add a Soo Bahk Do Article

With the addition of the Yuk Rho and Chil Sun forms, it would be nice if we were to pull these out... JWLuiza 20:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, since Tang Soo Do isn't all Moo Duk Kwan, maybe we should filter out some info and create larger Kwan pages? JWLuiza 20:28 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Tang Soo Do versus Soo Bahk Do

Tang Soo Do is a general name for several styles of karate practiced in Korea in the post-war era. Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do was among the most popular. MDK TSD became Soo Bahk Do, so genealogically speaking, SBD would be an offshoot or substyle of TSD. However, the significant changes of SBD make it very dissimilar in terms of basics and forms (Chil Sun, Hwa Sun, and Yuk Ro, vs. the Shudokan/Shotokan style forms).JWLuiza 22:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)John

As far as I'm aware (but I'm only 10th Gup) Tang So Do is not officially recognized as part of the Moo Duk Kwan. Seems that Tang Soo Do is more of an offshoot than Soo Bahk Do. So shouldn't this article be called "Soo Bahk Do"? I'll check with my Sa Bom Nim, but he's at "moment with the masters" for a week, and the Kyo Sa Nim in my studio is also gone. In the meantime, can anyone comment? MrBeck 04:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC), Gup # H114182

I am a cho dan in soo bahk do, and its true Tang Soo Do is not part of the Moo Duk Kwan, Tang Soo Do is the former name of Soo Bahk Do. And it is true, it is an old offshoot of Soo Bahk Do, if you look at both arts you can see the similiar roots.

Thanks. I actually have had a chance to talk at length with one of the Dans in my studio, and I got a lot more info on the history. I think I'll get some of the books on the subject, then maybe help improve this article. MrBeck 00:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Monastaries

Are there any monastic institutions that practice tang so do (presumably they would be in korea)?? or is it mainly practiced in do jangs worldwide?

No. Monasteries do sometimes practice martial arts in Korea, but never Tangsoodo, Taekwondo, Hapkido, or any other modern martial art there. Edededed 05:27, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Tangsoodo vs. Tang Soo Do

I'm considering moving this page to Tang Soo Do, because, as far as I can tell, this is the more common spelling. I've had contact with a number of UK TSD groups, plus a US one, and I've never seen it written without the spaces. Additionally, a Google search for "tang soo do" shows up about 142,000 results, compared to only 8,490 for "tangsoodo". Please raise any objections below. (above comment by User:Meand)

Sounds good to me. -- Visviva 8 July 2005 06:17 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to sign. Thanks for adding it in for me. --me_and 9 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)

Erm, oops. I just tried to move it, and hit Enter too early. I'm going to try to fix it now, but I'm not sure if it'll let me... --me_and 20:48, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay. It's back to Tangsoodo, but it now won't let me move it to Tang Soo Do, so I've had to put in a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves. My bad. Oops. --me_and 20:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. violet/riga (t) 19:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Name

Given that "it is generally accepted that Tang Soo Do was originally a Koreanized version of Japanese Karate", my karatedo (tangsoodo in korean) reference is obviously relevant here (i.e. section titled Name) unless someone is playing Korean identity politics where every association to Japanese culture get purged. If TSD, by combining KungFu or Takeyon, later developed to become something else, good for them. FWBOarticle

Your info concerning Funakoshi, and his manipulation of the Kanji for Karate-Do (to purge chinese reference) is not relevant to this article. This is a Tang Soo Do article. Tang Soo Do would not exist without Karate, but it isn't Karate. Karate-Do has it's own entry, where if I'm not mistaken, the info you insist upon placing here, is already stated.

Hello nameless. I hope you still agree that kara te=tang hand=tang soo is relevant in the section titled "Name" given that "Tang Soo Do was originally a Koreanized version of Japanese Karate". Consequently, Tang Hand chaged to Empty Hand is relevant too. However, I will delete Zen and Japanese identity politics part. I thought it was relevant but hey, I'm fine both way. FWBOarticle

Tang So Do is exactly Karate Do, with a Korean twist. The name change by Funakoshi is very important to any discussion of Tang Soo Do history, as it places it's migration to Korea from Japan in correct time frame context. Tang Soo Do could have easily been called Kong Soo Do, the "Empty" version of Karate if Won Kuk Lee had been a later student of Funakoshi, or, trained at a different university other than Chou. Chung Do Kwan, Song Moo Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan all used "Tang Soo Do", as Jidokwan and Chang Moo Kwan used Kong Soo Do, and in that order. --Bigzilla 19:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Tang Soo Do was formerly named Hwa Soo Do, which translates to the art of the flowering hand, this name was not favored by the public very well, it didn't sound like a martial art that involved to much actual fighting. So Hwang Kee decided to change the name to Tang Soo Do, because of the chinese influence in korea he believed the name would go over with the public well. This was later changed to Soo Bahk Do in 1945 when the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji was founded. Hwang Kee changed the name to Soo Bahk Do because he wanted to create a traditional Korean martial art, and in the pages of the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji were descriptions of warriors that trained in an art called Soo Bahk Ki.

Style

The arts that give origin to Soo Bahk Do are hence; Hwang Kee learned Taekyun while in Korea, by the age of 21 he was considered by the locals of his town as a master in this style. Hwang Kee viewed the style of Taekyun as 'crude, and lacking hand technique'. As the only available forms at the time were modified Okinawan forms, he took a number of these and changed them to a more internal focus. Hwang Kee spent a fair amount of time in Manchuria after this period, and he learned Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan, Piguazhang, and Shaolin Long Fist. This, coupled with the knowledge and forms he learned from the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji, Hwang Kee had a complete technique base.

                   Where did you come up with that? Can you reference any writings or accounts of his comments on Taekkyun? Also, where did the information about the Chinese arts that Hwang Kee studied come from? It is under dispute by the Yang family that the teacher Hwang Kee trained under in Taijiquan even existed (a bit of trouble translating a name back into recognizable Chinese), but most sources assert that it is unknown what arts Hwang Kee learned in Manchuria, since he simply referred to them in Korean, with names such as "Fist Method," etc.

68.216.83.89 15:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Phil

According to every living Taekkyon practitioner in Korea, they keep excellent records and Hwang is not in them anywhere. Also, Hwang can not remember the name of his teacher, which is very weird in Korean, Japanese or Chinese martial arts as your teacher is like your father. not only do we remember our teachers FULL name, we also remember the full names of those we just took a seminar with. In addition, all the Kwan seniors despute all claims that any of the Kwan founders practiced Taekkyon. --Bigzilla 19:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hwang Kee did a dominant part of his training when it was forbidden for anyone in korea to practice martial arts, he was a very popular man in the community though so he secretly traveled to china via train routes and trained privately with a master. Hwang Kee had also worked on railroads when he was younger, so he knew many people in the business. There were also many martial arts that Hwang Kee never got a chance to train in but studied thoroughly in literature.

Tang Soo Do a koreanized version of karate?!

i thought karate was formulated in the 18th/19th century

how is this possible if tang soo do was founded in the 8th century

Is it possible that Karate is a Nipponized version of Tang Soo Do?

There are no records of the use of the Tang Soo Do name in Korea until Won Kuk Lee started using it in 1944. So so-called historians in Korea, and elsewhere attempt to use Tang Soo Do, Taekkyon, and Soo Bhak Do interchangably, when if fact there is no evidence of it at all.

This was done to give Taekwondo a seperate identity from Karate, to seperate the two during the big push to get Taekwondo in the Olympics. A common identity would have cause a huge obsticle for Taekwondo, so it needed a line from "ancient" Korean arts, like Taekkyon. This is all according to Un yong Kim's book "The Best Olympics" from Baden Baden to Seoul. --Bigzilla 19:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Bigzilla - As far as I know, Tang Soo Do is normally called "Karate" because it has in common several characteristics of Karate, such as hard style forms, dress and traditions, not because of any particular lineage. Even though Tang Soo Do is deeply influenced from China and Korea, it would be misleading to call it a form of Kung Fu, which is typically much softer, with different dress and traditions.

Most Tang Soo Do schools use the "Pyung Ahn" forms as the first set of forms leaned after basic movements are learned. These forms are nearly identical to the Peinan forms used by Shotokan Karate, with some stylistic differences. I would not say that every Karate school teaches Pyung Ahn forms, but every school that starts out with them could rightly be called a Karate school. I did read some where that you can tell which schools that taught Pyung Ahn were descended from Shotokan, and which were descended from Okinawa, by which order the first two were taught in; they are reversed. From this measure, it looks like TSD took them from Shotokan, and this makes sense. Japan occupied Korea for most of the first half of the century.

Hope this helps. Thomas (Tang Soo!) --Howethomas 15:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Current State

Hope nobody minds - I added a blurb about where Song moo kwan is at nowadays. Whistle if you want to discuss. --Dan 17:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Deleted, should create a new wiki page "Song Moo Kwan", article should remain in a netreal POV

I deleted the Song Moo Kwan blurb also/again. It needs its own article. For the reader, it arrives in the article as a complete non sequitur. If we put blurbs for every shade of Tang Soo Do in this article, it will be thousands of pages long, which would not serve a general reader.

I also removed the weasel sentence about Tang Soo Do "emerging from Tae Kwon Do's shadow" in the past two decades. This suggests that Tang Soo Do was in Tae Kwon Do's "shadow" in the first place, a claim that is simply unfounded. In terms of popularity among the general public, it may have gained in popularity east of the Mississippi, but this does not mean it was ever in another art's shadow. Such a claim is also in contradiction to the ancestral history section of the article.

Grumpy complaints 1) None of you zealous deleters signed. 2) Songmookwan is one of the 5 original kwans, so you won't have thousands of pages if you restrict the article to those five. 3) Please clarify the NPOV complaint. --Dan 22:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Link Farm

Wikipedia is not a link farm - best is 2 or 3, less than 10 definately. Can someone who knows a bit more of the subject do some triming. External links should add info rather than advertise schools.Peter Rehse 01:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted all links, except those organization that are headed by a notable grandmaster. should you see any new links, edit according to this critera,

1 - is the website an official site of established organisation

2 - Headed by a Named and notable Grandmaster, whos personal history is given

3 - Does the site offer actual information, and not just advert for an organisation/club

No weapons?

That's completely wrong.

Whens the last time you were carrying a katana when you went out to eat?

I know that we use staffs (Bohngs or however you spell it) at my Tang Soo Do school.

Staffs are a slightly different story, almost anywhere you can find a improvised staff in reach, poolstick, standing lamp, broom. And i'm not sure about tang soo do, i train in Soo Bahk Do and we start using the staff at a higher level but its not required by the federation. You have to realize that a weapon is just an extension of your hands, if your body is your primary weapon you can understand and adapt to a weapon much easier.

In the World Tang Soo Do Ass., we train with Bongs (staff), Dan Gum (knife), and Jang Gum (Sword). We have 3 official and one unofficial bong hyung (forms), one dan gum hyung, and three jang gum hyung.--Eric Dufurrena, Sam Dan

Songmookwan uses staff and manchurian broadsword, in the Chungbong form progression. --Dan 15:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

titles

Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Academic titles for the reason for removal --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 16:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok that's completely insane. We DEFINITELY use weapons. From staffs to arni sticks to sais to swords to nunchucks. However it does differ from studio to studio. Also, it depends on the training backgrounds of the instructors: if some are trained in Japanese martial arts as well, they may very well know sword. Etc....Etc.....