Talk:Tony Blair

Too pro blair

This point doesn't seem to go anywhere else inc. under "NPOV" heading. The article has a lot of info but reads as far too pro-blair to me as a Briton.

You get the same sort of thing with Churchill. Yahdeyah great war leader who kinda set up orders for troops to fire on strikers and to gas Kurds a long time before Saddam got around to it. We all *know* he is a POS, but this is very difficult to put in NPOV context.

I feel like I'm reading a party pol. promotion for blair. Also:"The referendum is expected to be held in early 2006." this should be change. Expected by who? It's too POV and pro Newlabour.WikiUser 21:13, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's very difficult to deal with a vague statement like "I feel like I'm reading ...". You really need something a bit more specific: point out where the article fails to give balance, or does not include a critical analysis to balance a positive one. As for the referendum, the government has said that it will be in 2006: see here for the briefing. The reason is that the government wants Parliament to assess the constitution and does not want to hold the referendum during the British presidency (July-December 2005); the deadline for decision is autumn 2006. Dbiv 21:34, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think what WikiUser is trying to say (it's a point he's made before) is that the referendum will only take place if Labour wins, and in his view it's impermissibly POV to assume that they will win. -- ChrisO 22:20, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"point out where the article fails to give balance, or does not include a critical analysis to balance a positive one."-That's what I did when I said:"I feel like I'm reading a party pol. promotion for blair." In general it reads like blair wrote it. He can't avoid mentioning some of the bad things but it reads in general like the people that wrote it are strong supporters of blair. "The reason is that the government wants Parliament to assess the constitution and does not want to hold the referendum during the British presidency" Again the same. Better to say the government claims. "government wants Parliament to assess the constitution". This gov.t wants to scrap parliament.WikiUser 17:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with the article. No-one can deal with "in general it reads like ..."; what we need are specific quotes from the article and your argument as to why they lack NPOV. Wikipedia policies allow people who are strong advocates of a cause to write articles, but they are (like everyone) bound by NPOV. The problem with scattergun complaints of lack of NPOV is that they too often just demonstrate that the complainant has a POV which they want included in the article. Please cite parts of the article which you think lack NPOV.

Your point about the government wanting to scrap Parliament is bollocks. Dbiv 19:40, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Proposed article split

At 45KB this article is overweight and needs to be split into 2 articles in order to guarantee editorial freedom. Please put your proposals of how to do so here. I have put a note at the top of the article so readers can contribute. I hope to split the article based on a consensus reached here on Sunday. Squiquifox 21:05, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Does it really need splitting? Don't see why. The warning about splitting above 32K is just a standard thing because older browsers have trouble, but it's not policy to insist on a split and there are many articles above 32K. I say leave it as it is. Dbiv 21:58, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it is necessary. However, if the consensus is that a split is required, the cabinet changes could be moved to a separate article, but I doubt that it would save much space. Alternatively, or in addition, the two "terms" of government could each be moved to a separate article and summarised here. However, to repeat, I don't think it is necessary. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:03, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary either. There are large numbers of articles which are larger than 32K and very few browsers nowadays have problems with them. -- Arwel 13:08, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I see no reason to split it, at the moment. But, on the other hand, short of someone shooting Blair, this article is only going to get bigger--so it might have to get split at some point. But what does size have to do with guaranteeing editorial freedom? Freedom from what? Monk Bretton 00:49, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sometimes very large articles on a sprawling subject become hard to edit simply because of their labryinthine nature. Not the case here. Pcb21| Pete 11:53, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, no need to split.

James F. (talk) 16:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Internet Explorer for Mac (including the most recent version) has a hard limit of 32K on text fields. So if someone edits the article and saves it using IE for Mac, half of the article will disappear. There to guarantee editorial freedom for Mac users we must split the article. I am not trying to get consensus on whether to split the article, but on how to do so. If you don't like the 32KB warning try and get the policy changed. How do we split this article?--Squiquifox 21:06, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Anyone who has first, the good sense to buy a Mac, and then the lunacy to use Internet Explorer as their browser of choice, really needs their head examined. Use Safari! No problems there. Dbiv 23:12, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Umm, you are about two years behind the curve here sir. Edit sections were specifically introduced to allow users of these browsers to edit an article that's longer than 32k, as many articles, including this one, deserve to be. Pcb21| Pete 11:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A Mac with IE does sound an unlikely combination but I do feel we should respect the warning, which actually gives us the discretion to remedy an overheavy article. This is taken very seriously in some sites. See George W. Bush and Talk:Yasser Arafat. There may well be a case to get the policy changed on this issue, but that seems to me the only real way to avoid a split to many articles.--Squiquifox 00:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have brought the issue of whether articles should be split/slimmed or not to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy).Squiquifox 02:48, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article badly needs to be split. No article should be 53K. Articles that are that long are being split.

• There are still large numbers of people using browsers that cannot go beyond 32K. The 'edit' boxes are in many contexts useless for people with that problem. If they find themselves in an edit conflict, the page reverts to full size. So if they save their work, the wipe out everything over 32K. But if they don't they lose all the work they have been doing. In addition, the opening paragraph doesn't have an edit box, so once an article goes over 32K, millions of net users can no longer edit the first paragraph.
• The general view is that articles over 40K simply are too reader-unfriendly and need summarising with secondary linked articles containing more detail. Long articles tend to be very complex with too much information packed in, information that could be used more effectively in linked articles.

Long articles as a result are being broken up all over the place. This one is going to be, either by people already on the page, or in the future by people who find the page, see the size, and slash the text to following Wikipedia guidelines.

Whatever about going over 32K, which is unwise, going over 40K is simply crazy. Having an article that is 53K is plain madness. FearÉIREANNFile:Ireland flag large.png\^(talk) 02:03, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article has a "featured article" template which says it represents best practice. Obviously it doesn't need to be split and your idea of "plain madness" is out of step with the reality, which is in itself a sign of madness. Pete 11:40, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the Cabinet info into Tony Blair's Cabinets. It isn't really necessary here and easily stands by itself as a separate article. It may need to be better linked to from this article, and appropriate categories (etc.) added to the new one. It's helped reduce the size of this article by about 10k. violet/riga (t) 10:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

longest serving?

The article mentions twice that Blair is Britain's longest-serving labour PM. Once it says that he broke the record in 2005, once the date is given as 2003. What is right?--Doric Loon 18:20, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Harold Wilson had two spells in office, so Blair first surpassed Wilson's longest continuous period in office, then surpassed his total length of service. If you read it again you will see that it makes this distinction. --rbrwr^± 19:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Aha! Thanks. --Doric Loon 10:02, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Spelling

Much amused to see BDD changing British spelling to American. I always assumed we accept a colo(u)rful mix. --Doric Loon 18:47, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Joke

Sorry, but it's POV to include an anti-Blair joke (which is not notable nor has it become 'an important sociological part of the effects of the political system on popular culture'). Hence revert of 20:50, March 5, 2005. Dbiv 21:54, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Blair News

Blair is an adopted child so that his family tree is not publically known.

Erm, not even correct if you are talking about Leo Blair (born 1923), the father of Tony. He was adopted by the Blair family; he was the son of Charles Parsons (professional name Jimmy Lynton), and Celia Ridgeway. Dbiv 20:33, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Medal

Blair receiving the Congressional Medal ogf Honor was recommended to Bush by 3rd party who at same time recommended to Blair that Bush get the KCBE Medal from Queen Elizabeth II - a medals swap between two ars kissers.

Question

When is Blair going to come up for reelection?

See UK general election, 2005/6. Pcb21| Pete 16:13, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

He's just called an election for May 5 2005. ugen64 02:39, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Education, education, education

This is a common misquote [1] - I've corrected it

Closing British Election/Politician pages during election period

Shouldn't British Government leader and party pages be locked to editing due to the on going situation of the election, i.e. radio phone-ins are not allowed to mention elections, shouldn't wiki be the same? Or is Wiki a different situation ?

Certainly not. We don't lock-down US political pages during their elections, we just keep an enhanced alert for vandalism. If you think UK radio phone-ins aren't allowed to mention elections then you certainly haven't been listening to BBC Radio Five Live between 9am and noon Monday to Friday for the last two weeks! In any case, none of Wikipedias' servers are located in the UK, so whatever UK law says about the matter is profoundly irrelevant. There are supposed to be over 300 parties contesting these elections, though most will only pick up a handful of votes, and I don't think we have entries for more than about 15% of them - perhaps we ought to have a concerted attempt to document them. -- Arwel 17:05, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't quite see why you need to start your answer in "Certainly not", a respectable "not necessary" would have sufficed. I was simply asking a question, not making demands!! As for day time phone-ins, i am not able to listen to them as i am not at home during those times, which i would like to be, as BBC Radio Five is usualy quite good, but you will find that certian laws forbid biased oppions to be aired on radio during times of election; simliar laws also apply to court cases being discussed on radio. Though i do agree with your idea of having a concerted attempt to document parties not mentioned on Wikipedia. --

Certainly political pages are magnets for vandalism generally and especially during election periods, but George Bush and John Kerry were only briefly protected during the US elections.

Be careful about your definition of 'parties', and certainly do not adopt the Press Association list of candidates and their 'parties' as definitive. The fact that someone has paid out to the Electoral Commission to register a party name does not mean that it is a party in any more general sense of the term, and certainly doesn't make it notable for an article in Wikipedia. I would set out several criteria for inclusion of parties:

• Obtaining a significant vote in one or more constituencies
• An open membership - not 'one man and his dog'
• Evidence that candidates have been selected as opposed to nominated
• Publication of a set of policies which go beyond a single issue

If any party meets all four of these then it is worthy of inclusion; if it only meets one of them it probably isn't. Dbiv 21:17, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Born May 5th, 2005?

Vandalism, --SqueakBox 16:37, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

september dossier

Dbiv, do you have a problem with me describing the september dossier in this artical? it is a fact that the dossier claimed that iraq had weapons of mass destruction. The dossier also claimed that these weapons could be used within 45mins. The dossier led people to beleive that the uk was under iminent threat. the sun published a headline "Brits 45 mins from doom".--80.41.123.227 14:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

The article is a biography of Tony Blair and so it is not the place to go into great detail about the dossier and subsequent political disputes, which is handled in the article entitled September Dossier. Anything must accord with the Neutral Point of View policy which presents all points of view as valid. Blair wrote neither the dossier nor the Sun headline, so they are largely irrelevant to his biography; in any respect, the dossier did not make a claim that the UK was under an imminent threat and was specifically written so as not to say that (as was disclosed during the Hutton inquiry). The article at present does mention the dossier within the context of the lead-up to the Iraq war and Blair's attempts to persuade people domestically and internationally to support government policy. For more details, readers could go to September Dossier or Hutton Inquiry or David Kelly or several other articles. That is, I think, the proper way of treating the subject. Dbiv 14:52, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Time to lose the prefix style

A survey was conducted, with the upshot that the majority of WP voters do not support the use of prefixed formal styles at the start of biographic articles. No other specific MoS recommendation reached consensu of 75%, but the style prefix was less than 50%.

Moreover, Blair is just about alone among world leaders in having an article with such a prefixed style. For example, Bush, Chávez, Castro, Chirac, Fahd, Howard, Fox, Koizumi, Martin, Mbeki, Obasanjo, and Putin are all national political leaders whose bios do not have prefixed styles (even though all of them formally have such styles). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:35, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

"Just about alone"? Don't make me laugh. Try looking at the other articles in Category:Members of the Privy Council. Proteus (Talk) 20:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

In response to your edit: Paul Martin, Helen Clark, Beatrix of the Netherlands, Akihito, etc. (Also, it's generally considered rather rude to change a statement that someone has already replied to.) Proteus (Talk) 21:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the survey - perhaps you could let us know where it was conducted. In the meantime keep the article as currently formulated with 'The Right Honourable'; this is community consensus among editors of this article. Dbiv 22:00, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)/Survey on Style-Prefixed Honorary Titles

Time for some facts. A convention existed, based on a consensus, to use styles. A group of people, of which Lulu was the main leader, scrambled around Wikipedia removing styles contrary to the consensus. Whig called a vote. He used a ridiculous voting system that confused everyone. No consensus existed, so with ingenious twisting of the facts, Whig ruled that that meant that people had replaced the current consensus with one his vote said was the new consensus, based on a 53% support level. Normal wikipedia policy is based on replacing one consensus by another consensus, not replacing one consensus by something voted on by 53%!!! To make matters worse, before Whig's latest vote, his so-called 'ratification' of his non-existent consensus, he and Lulu unilaterally went around implementing a non-ratified non-existent consensus. People are no angry now that users are voting against the ratification on the non-existent consensus in protest at that they see as highjacking of the process by Whig to push his agenda. Some people are even changing votes in protest. Standard wikipedia policy is to replace one consensus with another, not interpret a confusing vote as creating a new consensus based on 53% and implementing it before the process agreed to has even been finished, or to rule that a consensus is abolished without agreeing a replacement. FearÉIREANNFile:Ireland flag large.png\^(talk) 22:24, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

No. A policy lacking consensus was (unilaterally) written into the MoS a few months back. If there had every been a consensus at some earlier time, this whole thing would have been very different. No matter how many times Jtdirl bald-facedly lies about it, there was no prior consensus. Once a vote was conducted, the lack of consensus for that policy became even more clear. I can't honestly claim "leadership" on conducting the vote, but I did vote; and also make comments in the discussion page. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:51, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

Picture

Is it a conscious decision to keep with an 11 year old picture of Our Glorious Leader </sarcasm>, or should we be using something more up to date? Proto 15:23, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's been changed a few times and reverted. The problem is that it's an appropriate pose (head on) whereas all the others are not, and also it's got suitable copyright permission. If anyone can find an up to date photo which is high definition and GFDL-licensable then please replace it. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 15:31, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Out of curiosity

User:Dbiv just removed this line ... which peaked when Blair was taken ill during an award ceremony on the village green at Linton, West Yorkshire. Nonetheless ... from the second paragraph of health problems. That sentence was initially added by an IP user, but it looked right to me. Dbiv, is there a reason you removed this? Proto 15:51, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC) moved to Dbiv's talk page Proto 15:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unsourced claims by 212.248.232.34

If anyone else has any information regarding Tony Blair and a visit to Linton, West Yorkshire some time in 2004 can they please identify themselves? 212.248.232.34 persists in adding an unreferenced claim to the article and I would like to know whether it is true. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 13:18, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

David, unless I am very much mistaken this was the "day trip from hell" - guaranteed you will not find a press reference to this but you will not have to ask around very far amongst your press associates or friendly members before you find someone who knows the full story. Very much an off the record event, as we call them. Alan Johnson 13:50, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

An odd subject for your first ever edit to Wikipedia. Sorry, but I am getting suspicious. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 14:00, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unless there is a source for it, it arguably counts as original research and cant go in the encyclopedia. Iain 14:10, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I have already discussed with you dbiv I was there that day, 21st August 2004, check it out for yourself instead of blindly removing the information and then later 'getting suspicious'. I hope you don't have a gun! Anyway, this is hardly 'original research' it is a simple fact. 212.248.232.34

On August 21, 2004 Tony Blair was provably in San Gimignano, Tuscany, Italy on holiday (which lasted from August 12 to August 25). I now think your claim is completely without foundation. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 14:28, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He was not in Tuscany on the afternoon of the 21st August that is for sure. I don't know how you define provably, but I can testify from being with him elsewhere, that he was not there. I have several other contacts that can do the same. What is your proof that he was in Tuscany that afternoon? I do not believe you have any, because I know he was not there. 212.248.232.34

Good grief David, what do you mean by treating me with suspicion? I think you have some wires crossed - since I have never edited Wikipedia, the subject of my first ever edit remains to be seen. In fact, it will never happen, as I am here strictly in a monitoring capacity. Anyway, summer 2004 is right for the incident I was referring to, and this ties in with your anonymous correspondent, though I am not sure about 21st August myself. I will ask around this evening, somebody will remember the date. Alan Johnson 14:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My mistake, August 21st is correct. Quite a buzz about this around here, we had all forgotten and put it to one side. Probably for the best really. Alan Johnson 14:37, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Both of you (if indeed you are different people, which I doubt) have led us quite a merry dance on this. Nice practical joke, but this is a factual encyclopaedia. The Prime Minister's itinerary was leaked and widely reported before the holiday; Downing Street stated on Monday August 23 that it was ongoing ("Asked if the Prime Minister was back from his holiday the PMS said that she would not comment on the details of the Prime Minister's travel arrangements but we would let people know when he was back"); and there were plenty of reports from journalists at San Gimignano during the stay. Please do not continue to vandalize Wikipedia like this. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 14:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry dbiv I am only going to re-iterate that I was there on the 21st August, as was Tony Blair. You second-hand quoting someone refusing to comment on the details of the PM's travel arrangements is not going to have much effect on my very firm memory is it? Still, I have carefully looked at the links you provide above, and NOTHING there contradicts what I am saying, indeed a couple of items confirm my memories. As for practical jokes (what is the joke?), vandalism, merry dancing and split personalities, please stick to the facts rather than making these accusations and insinuations. I understand why you are trying to beat me with the 'this is a factual encyclopaedia' stick, but it looks to me like you are poking yourself in the eye with it. Thanks. 212.248.232.34

The fact that Tony Blair was in Italy the whole time doesn't contradict your assertion that he was in Yorkshire? I'd say it fairly obviously does. You are either a fraud or labouring under a massive misapprehension. If you want your claim in the article, produce a reference from a reputable source. Otherwise, please feel free to contribute accurate and relevant information to other articles, but do not vandalize articles. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 15:18, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tony Blair was certainly not in Italy the whole time, I suggest your read your references again, as you are now making yourself look foolish. If you wish to persist in this claim that he was not in Linton on that afternoon, provide some evidence to back it up, since otherwise you are simply calling me a liar without being able to back the claim up.

David, for goodness sake, his itinerary was "leaked"? You of all people should know enough to want to have a little think about that. If you want my advice, bow out of this bickering and examine the facts - I am surprised you have not made the connection yet. Alan Johnson 15:28, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We need to source that he was in Linton that day. We do not need to source that he wasn't in Linton that day. The onus is on the people claiming he was there that day to prove it, otherwise it should definitely not be in the encyclopedia, SqueakBox 15:36, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

dralan, you seem to know something about this, were you there too? If not can you provide a reference for this please 212.248.232.34

As I already said above you will not find anything in the press about this. Even if I could provide something directly, I wouldn't do so. This subject is not one that needs documenting here or anywhere else, as I suspect you know very well. Alan Johnson

Fine, we dont want it here, SqueakBox 14:55, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

SqueakBox, are you talking to me? As I say, I can't help him/her/it/212.248.232.34. What "dont" (sic) you want? Alan Johnson

I am saying to everyone that we don't want unsourced claims that he was in Linton in 2004; see 1st paragraph of this section, as this is what we are talking about here, SqueakBox 16:32, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)