Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)

Itachi

Does anyone notice in this section involving Itachi Uchiha that it says Main article: Itachi Uchiha but the the links just directs us to Itachi's Akatsuki page and not his main page with the plot overviw and stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.121.42.181 (talk) 00:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The page was merged due to not satisfying WP:FICT. The link to that page has been removed from this article. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

merged my ass, you just deleted the page--Mhart54com 01:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

All the relevant information is already there. Anything else is extraneous plot or in-universe details that don't need to be included. In any case, read WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL before you decide to write a comment like that. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 01:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

why do you think your above me?--Mhart54com 01:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Why are you trying to deflect the issue to a matter of personal opinion? Address the problem or don't bother replying. It helps no one when you throw unfounded accusations. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If it makes you feel any better, Mhart, I think I'm above you. It has something to do with you thinking that Madara cannot possibly be Tobi and that "you're right and we're all wrong". Speak Qwerty 07:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm so glad you can assume good faith with other editors. In any case, until someone satisfies WP:FICT, the article is not going to be restored. There's really no way around it; ergo, spend less time arguing here and more time searching for relevant information. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 07:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That was a joke, didnt you see the giant star i gave TheUltimate3. I did it too see if admins could revert more then 3 times. since no dam admins would tell me. you sound tough for someone who has only been here for 2 days. dont start with me!--Mhart54com 10:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Get over yourself, Mhart. I've been here for longer than two days, I just haven't made an account until recently. Besides, as evident with you, time is clearly not an indicator of maturity. Speak Qwerty 16:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Calm down before you say something you shouldn't. The two of you are both Wikipedians, correct? If so then you should show each other some respect.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You didn't merge it, you deleted it and kept little info. And no one, except the admins, is above anyone else. Jazz Band Member 21:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Sephiroth can't delete things, so the article's history and talk page still exist. That qualifies as a merge. ~SnapperTo 22:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

And not even admins are above anyone please read the page on adimins and read what Jimbo has to say about them.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 22:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest something be put in about how it almost seems that Itachi still likes his brother as seen in chapter 146 and after Kisame thinks Sasuke is dead he describes Itachi as looking like hes crying about it in issue 364. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OOMYK007 (talk • contribs) 04:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok first of all, will everybody stop the personal attacks, I dont think we should add the thing about Itachi crying and we don't know is he was--Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 07:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

How about adding to his article about how pretty much everything Itachi has done has been the driving force behind almost all of Sauske's actions in the show. Or his encounter with Orochimaru which caused Orochimaru's defection and in turn desire for Sauske's sharingan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Orochimaru left Akatsuki before the events of naruto, and I think the itachi thing is on the sasuke's page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue eyes gold dragon (talk • contribs) 16:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Nah Orochimaru left Akatsuki because he tried to take over Itachi's body while they were both in Akatsuki and Itachi took his hand for it it's been explained in the manga and even the show. I also don't think someone should have to by happenstance be forced to read about something intimate between 2 separate characters via 1 characters info/page/view —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Also the relationship between Sauske and Itachi is highly relevant to the manga/show their characters and the characters around sauske in particular. Itachi is a very important character with plenty of information regarding him and his actions thus far to downplay his importance in a manner to insinuate that he doesn't need and is undeserving of his own page is sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

He failed to meet WP:FICT and all that info was out of universe and therefore he could not have his own article. the disscussion is closed and a concensus was reached so until kishimoto releases some charachter creation info or he does soemthing like die.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Grammar edit to Hidan, please.

Part of Hidan's section reads "buries the, still speaking, remains". This should obviously read "buries the still-speaking remains". Can someone with the ability to edit please take care of that? Moghendhim 13:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

truthfully the sentence can go either way but it's fine the way it is right now. Thanks for pointing that out and I hope that soon you will be able to edit this page as well.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. The way it was really wasn't correct grammatically. The Splendiferous Gegiford 21:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If you say so. i thought it was alright after eading it a couple of times.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 22:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It actually is correct grammar. If you take out the "still speaking", it would read "buries the remains". "still speaking" is describing the remains. It would be better without the commas, but it still is correct. Jazz Band Member 23:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

thanks for pointing that out I knew my teacher said something about that last year then again I hate english litature.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 00:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

New Akatsuki members?

In ch. 369, it shows Pein going to sleep, opening six giant canisters, and waking up again. After that, you see six people emerge from the canisters, but you can't see their faces. The pictures were a little blurry, but I think those six people were wearing Akatsuki cloaks! It was a cloak that looked exactly like Akatsuki cloaks (yes, they were black). I'm not positive if it had red clouds on it or not, but it looked like it. Anyway, it's got something covering those cloaks. Even though I couldn't see the faces, I think one of them was Kakuzu. Who knows? Therefore, Pein is either recruiting new Akatsuki members, resurrecting deceased Akatsuki members (Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Orochimaru, and an unknown), or he could just be using completely new ninja to do his bidding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 22:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait until tommorrow and we'll go from there although i doubt we will have any info to go on.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 23:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I was told by a reliable source that those six guys where more Peins. Who knows.--TheUltimate3 23:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

He could also be using a cloning jutsu similar to the one he used on Itachi and Kiname(sp).74.74.83.251 00:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I saw that too. To me it appeared to be new members in Akatsuki cloaks. Tho one DID resemble Kakuzu...and was it just me or did that pic have Pein open his eyes and them appear to be like Shukakus (Spl?)? Chipmonk328 7 September 2007

His eyes were normal. I noticed the one parallel to Pein was rather large and I remember there being an unnamed, large Akatsuki during the first meeting in Part I. So, I would bet he's doing something with their deceased bodies, some Shang Tsung theatrics perhaps. Regardless, that's all speculation so there isn't much that can be put in an article for now. Intellect Ninja 00:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

On Pein's section, it says that Pein is switching into six different bodies. Is this true? no right now alll we know is that akatsuki is doing sumtin with bodies one looked odly like kakuzu and the other big one cold be deidara since he did explode he might be just deflating or sumtin but we have to wait till next week to find out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.197.82 (talk) 03:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone tell the meaning of the words in front of the bodies? Enoch08 05:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well they aren't the sysmbols on their rings, but I think those are the 6 remaining Akatsuki members. ChristianC September 8 2007

I apologise for that. Now I see it is just normal eyes. It was cuz it was the leaked version and hadn't been cleaned up yet. Now that I have the cleaned up version, I have this to say. No, one did not resemble Deidara. I thot one looked like Kakuzu, but thats Pain. SO, I belive it to be as follows. Pain, Sasori (note the big body), Zetsu (he IS still alive after all..), Konan, Kisame (note that hes not with Itachi, who is going to fight sasuke and said to come alone.), and I'm not sure of the last one. It couldn't be Tobi, IMO becuase, if the theory is correct, He'll be going to the shrine as well to meet Sasuke and Itachi to ressurect Tengu. But then, would they also need Kakashi due to his Mangekyo sharingan? (Note that Sasuke got his in the valley of the end battle http://saiyanisland.com/naruto/?naruto=info/Sharinganin ) and what of Naruto? He has a key part of unlocking Tengu, the nine tailed fox. (Sorry for going off topic, but its an intersting thought to think about.)---Chipmonk328 9 September 2007

There is still no information about the bodies. You're going to have to wait another week. I think it's worthy to mention though, that the eyes were NOT normal. Pein went to sleep, and presumably woke up in another body, but he still had the spiral eyes. There is nobody left in Akatsuki that matches those bodies, either. Zetsu's body only gets bigger around the neck, not the gut, and Sasori doesn't even look human in puppet form. It's just a collection of bodies (probably of legendary ninja, but maybe not). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.152.121.199 (talk) 04:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No Sasuke DOES NOT have mangekyou sharingan, go read the manga or watch the anime again. I made a post about this on a forum, and after extensive answers, it's been confirmed that he DOES NOT possess it. Period. Note that the section on his three-bladed sharingan has been removed from your linked website; check it out. It was probably a blurred picture or a deluded anime watcher, but it probably stayed on the website because no one monitored that page. Anyway, the bodies seem to just be multiple bodies for Pein to use himself, meaning that they are NOT akatsuki members (until pein enters them i guess. Just because they were wearing the cloaks doesn't mean they were any of the members we knew. Its just so he has his normal clothes on for everyday purposes. We should just give them a mention and wait for further information as to what they really are.60.52.125.108 07:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein

Can someone add that Pein shares a remarkable resemblence to Naruto?

Maybe he's a ressurected Nawaki or Naruto's long lost brother of some sort. just some suggestions

Original research. They don't even look remotely alike in any case. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't play ignorant. They definitely have a similar design. Nevertheless, Wikipedia is not for speculations and opinions. Intellect Ninja 02:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Intellect Ninja, they DO have a resemblance, but that information isnt up to Wikipedia Standards.-- Chipmonk328 7 September 2007

i have to admit they do have a similar body structure similar build hair style but many people do have naruto's hairstyle an remember in the latest chapter he's belived to be a fuuma or something so he cant be nawaki or related to nauto --209.159.197.82 03:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

This is Shonen Manga. There's no such thing as "can't". If Kishimoto wants them to be related, they will be related. Like I said before though, Wikipedia is not for speculation and opinions. Intellect Ninja 16:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Even so, in the manga that just came out, they said that kyuubi charkra was divided into halves of good and evil. maybe good is in Naruto and evil is in pein. I know wikipedia isn't for speculation but it is just something to think about.

Deletion review

OK - the deletion review endorsed the deletion of the original list of Akatsuki members. This means that all the information in this article that isn't sourced properly (and that means not to a primary source - i.e. the game itself) is subject to deletion at any time. I'm not going to decimate the article now, I'll give the editors here a week to source the article correctly in line with Wikipedia guidelines. So - it's your choice, folks - instead of arguing about trivia, let's get this article into a state where it deserves to stay on Wikipedia. ELIMINATORJR 01:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

You just want this article merged, don'tcha? Nothing here is unreferenced, and the series and databooks are third party references. Delete it and I'll bring it back, despite whatever complaints the admins make. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The series and databooks are not third party references - they are primary sources from which the subject material is derived, and thus do not meet WP:FICT's requirements. In any case, saving the articles is perfectly fine as long as you do not recreate them, which as Eliminator pointed out below, makes it subject to deletion under CSD G4. Also note that if you do recreate the pages, you may be subject to a block. Furthermore, please assume good faith with Eliminator. He is as willing as anyone here to keep this article; however, WP:FICT does need to be upheld, and it is our job to attempt to ensure that it is. If we cannot keep this article, then deal with it. Recreate the article when such sources are discovered. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 21:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah while I don't like what Eliminator is doing, he is so far one of the FEW admins who've actually spoken to us like equals, I.E. Given us a chance to figure out just what the fudge we have to do to save the article, not show up with a AfD and say "This isn't a place for you Fanbois go to the Naruto Wiki!" (I made the last part up. A little pick me up.) so everyone lets lay off the messenger.--TheUltimate3 21:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, assume good faith. The AfD brought up a valid concern over the notability of the article under WP:FICT, which was then endorsed at deletion review. The material merged here was preferable in any case. As per Jimbo's statements, admins are not "higher" than you, and your statements give the impression that you are providing a blanket assumption of bad faith to all administrators, which is definitely not warranted. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 23:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I was assuming good faith with Eliminator. However I can argue that admins are "higher" than me (and a few others as well) by the mere fact that they have Policy to back them up, while all I have is gut feeling. Policy trumps Gut Feeling thus they are higher than me. I will B and Moan but thats the honest truth that I have to live with. Though while the "Fanbois" statement was ment to make the obvious bleak situation more bareable before as we lose one day to the seemingly "Nothing can stop the envitable" deletion of the Akatsuki page I do remember a while back someone did actually say in the midst of the Deletion Chronicles "Go to the Naruto wiki" so thats where the joke came from.--TheUltimate3 23:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If anyone had policy backing them on a decision, then they would generally be on the winning side of the argument, unless following policy in such a case would be nonsensical to the point where WP:IAR would apply. Being an administrator has nothing to do with it. The only difference is that administrators tend to have a greater grasp of policy and its application than non-administrators do, as per the exacting standards at WP:RFA. And if this article is deleted, then we'll deal with it, and possibly fix List of Naruto villains to incorporate elements of this page, possibly stripping many of the utterly minor and redundant characters out in the process. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 23:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this page needs to be deleted - it's certainly got some notability as a stand-alone article, it just needs tidying up, spurious detail stripping out, and (of course) sourcing properly. ELIMINATORJR 14:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Discussion got carried away too far to the point where I lost the original intent of your message. My bad. In any case, there's no reason my suggestions below shouldn't be implemented, and the stripping of in-universe details wouldn't be a bad thing. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 17:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

And toss the info of the Akatsuki Organization, like their goal, the rings and the like?--TheUltimate3 23:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

There needs to be nothing more than a short review. It's a large mess of in-universe information that can be reduced. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 01:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

So what you are suggesting,is that we have a list of villains that,bear with me here,says almost nothing about who they are,what they do,or why they're considered villains in the first place.Just a list saying they're villains.That about it?Lastbetrayal 02:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how that information cannot be condensed into a paragraph or two. If you cut out the extraneous details, then it's fine. In any case, that is a final resort should we be unable to add sources relating third party coverage of this topic, and is suitable given the circumstances. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 03:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Ummm.... I just noticed, you called this a game. Akatsuki is a fictional organization in the manga and anime series Naruto. I don't think that fictional book series (manga and comics and others count) and all sub-pages (which this is, to the Naruto article) can't use the series itself as a source. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 14:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I never called Akatsuki a game. I also never said that primary sources could not be used. I'm merely pointing to the fact that only primary sources do not satisfy WP:FICT. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 17:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Which is why the policy "Ignore All Rules" exists,and the phrase "occasional exception" is included in the guideline explanation.Also he was refering to EliminatorJr with the games comment.And on a side note,virtually every subject in the world could condensed into a paragraph or two.That however,does not mean that they should be.Lastbetrayal 20:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:IAR is only implemented in the strictest of circumstances, where there exists almost overwhelming consensus to ignore rules in order to improve the encyclopedia. This isn't really the case. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 20:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

He's right, everything can be put in two-paragraphs, (one-sentence, actually), but that doesn't mean they should. And we don't have only primary sources, only "just about everyone of them is a primary source but we still have other sources so it doesn't count". Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The Countdown Begins

We have one week. One week to figure out what we could possibly use as a "secondary source" or the article goes bye-bye. Guidelines are simple: No fansites, so a good 70% of places would probably fall under this category. And before people even start here it is Primary Sources Suck: Very simple to understand and should not be argued; To Wikipedia, Primary Sources suck. If it ain't worth a college professor writing a 900 word essay comparing it to Nazi Germany, it ain't important (apparently).

• Without pointing out all the errors in this message, I did not say the article would be deleted. I said that unsourced material may be removed. ELIMINATORJR 12:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

With all this in mind, and ignoring Other Crap Exists, our biggest concern shouldn't be updating the info rather than sourcing it. Anyone got any ideas?--TheUltimate3 02:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Snapper2 already added in a few sources from IGN. And I thought it was said the "third-party source" thing "doesn't apply to a fiction article unless it contains unreffed out of universe info". The Splendiferous Gegiford 04:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Note that sourcing in-universe details with third party websites is pretty irrelevant. You would need something along the lines of:

• Merchandise on the characters. Toys, memorabilia, facsimiles, etc. from a verifiable third party source.
• Actual reception on the characters. For instance, a third party source criticizing or praising a character's design, development, or other features. The big problem is that most of this stuff has not been released in English. Ergo, you will need someone who can read Japanese to fish through Japanese websites, magazines, newspapers, or whatever for such reception.
• Comments by Kishimoto in an interview or something on the design of the characters, his opinions on them, or anything really. Again, a person who can read Japanese would help.
• Presence in other media. List appearances in the TCG, video games, and any other information related to that. Notes from the developers of the video games would be nice also.

And that's some things we can do. As most of us likely do not read Japanese to that degree of fluency, I would recommend acquiring the services of someone who does. Also note that if this does work, and all of the above is added, we could actually get this article to GA status, a rather ironic twist on the situation. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 04:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• and no-one would be more pleased than me if that happened. ELIMINATORJR 12:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Finding third party sources that cover primary source facts has some relevance, as Wikipeida guidelines like it better when CNN tells you that grass is green, not grass itself telling you what color it is. I've found a website with character information that does not qualify as a Naruto fansite, but its information is reliant on the Japanese anime and thus it does not cover much of this article's contents yet.

As for out-of-universe stuff for each character, there does not necessarily need to be a high level of it. To use Characters of Final Fantasy VIII for structural reference, only the major characters have any level of conception/reception/what have you information, and even then it is relatively minimal in comparison to in-universe info. Only the primary topic (in this case Akatsuki) needs any substantial coverage, not that that's going to be any easier. ~SnapperTo 18:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry I only know one person who MAY speak Japanese, and he's one of my teachers. I can't possibly ask him to go through Japanese websites for Akatsuki stuff with the busy work days he has.--TheUltimate3 10:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we delay this deletion of sources until Naruto Shippuden's anime has reached the English speaking nations and there will be third-party reliable sources provided? σмgнgσмg 12:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That will be like in 2012. Way too far in the future for keeping the article to be justified. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 19:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I know the admins are just doing their jobs but this is ridiculous, a week, ha that's a good one we need more like 2 weeks to find a Japanese speaking wikipedian with lots of time on his/her hands. But maybe it can be done in a week I'll start looking for some Japanese speaking wikipedians with a lot of time on their hands.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Just forget it, I've saved every Naruto article we have on my Microsoft Word and I update the collection dayly. If one gets deleted, it'll be easy for it to be put back. Nothing here goes unreferenced. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• Er, no. If an article gets deleted through AfD, just putting it back is grounds for speedy deletion WP:CSD#G4. Unless of course, it is greatly improved from the deleted version. ELIMINATORJR 21:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait, I made that before finding out you wouldn't delete it. Sorry. ^_^ Still, I'd only do so if it was a case of power-abuse, like the members article. If one presented actual reasons (although I still prefer merge over deletion) or if it was merged, then I'd just forget about that article. Anyway, as said, little if not none of the things mentioned go unreferenced. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And as I mentioned above, all the references (save the IGN references, which are still only sourcing in-universe details), are primary sources, and are not grounds for keeping the article under WP:FICT. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 21:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I think someone put a link in a past discussion to Kishimoto saying Konan was quite strong. I'll search for it. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I checked with my teacher whom I thought spoke Japanese. Turns out not fluently, well not enough to help translate a website. So thats out and I haven't an idea on where to look next.--TheUltimate3 17:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=2654068&postcount=20 Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

listen to this

Itachi once mentiond during his confrontation with Jiraiya that [as ordered by our superiors], doesnt this signify that there is a heirarchy in Akatsuki?

And another, there are a total of nine tailed - beasts, if each member has a target, then what about the other member during the time when Akatsuki has 10 members? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.53.229.168 (talk) 06:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Good eyes. I'd have to say its, as dumb as this sounds, is due to the fact that Uchiha Madara doesnt need a "Tailed beast" becuase of his already high level of strength. Although if we are patient, perhaps they will shed light on this later. Perhaps not. We'll have to wait and see. --Chipmonk328 7 September 2007

zetsu is a hunter-nin he does look out and is the taxi for the dead body —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.197.82 (talk) 04:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

There was never a time when there were ten members at once, so that explains it. Orochimaru left before Deidara, Tobi, and Hidan joined. Sasori, Kakuzu, Deidara and (to an extent) Hidan are dead. Tobi faked his death as part of his "master plan" (evil laughter). Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Akatsuki's numbers have shifted somewhat over time. It's impossible to tell exactly what happened, but I highly doubt they had less than 10 members at the beginning. They talked about Orochimaru's absence slowing down the ritual as if they were used to having the full 10 members. And apparently it's not that hard to come up with a lower-level S-class criminal. And BTW, going by the latest chapter, Uchiha Madara actually controlled the Ninetails (which would explain putting an Uchiha for that bijuu with a backup who can absorb chakra) and still couldn't even beat the 1st Hokage, so I think people have been heavily overrating his personal strength. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.152.121.199 (talk) 04:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein, a father

Should we say how he was once a father and a husnad, also those clone like things? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 21:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

How's Pein a father or a husband? And to who?

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/narutochapter369english.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=44796 Here is the exact saying killed wife, children ect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 03:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

He killed the leader of Amegakure's family (Hanzou the Salamander), not his own. σмgнgσмg 03:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

ok, but are all those clones different except those eyes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 03:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC) it's stated he killed is wife and kids (servering all ties with his village) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.197.82 (talk) 04:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

And what's the text on the bottom of the capsules? One looks like the Hokage symbol. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The info about Pein really needs to be tweaked. He didn't lead a faction in the civil war, that's misinformation that Jiraiya picked up while spying. The reason Pein is seen as a god is because he defeated the entire village by himself. It's right there on page 9 of chapter 369. The so-called faction below him was just a bunch of ninja he collected and brought to the village. They didn't actually help in the fight. And the ruthlessness is just another example of Pein's "godlike" actions. Beating Hanzo alone and wiping out his family is only part of what he did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.7.225 (talk) 05:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

When said like that, yes in a way, he DID lead a faction, he also, however, managed to win single handedly, without their help. They wear the headband with a scar through it, why wouldn't they be from the village? Why else would they wear Rain ninja headbands unless that was where they were from? Sovenjers? I think not! But, put into wiki perspective, we can't say for certain that he didnt, so it shouldn't be changed. Chipmonk328 10 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Fuuma Pein/Pein Fuuma?

Yes, yes, bad time in the middle of this deletion debate, but, it seems the latest chapter confirmed or atleast hinted at Pein's surname being 'Fuuma'. Now, I'm not sure if this is the same as the anime Fuuma, but, it's worth a mention. DarkRyan75 22:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

See? This is why anime and other non-canon information should be omitted entirely from the Naruto articles. Kishimoto occasionally contradicts the information in the anime and I'm more willing to go off what he says than what some third-party writers say. 214.13.209.200 11:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

We should wait on that. It may be one and the same Fuuma or it may not. We should wait and find out.Chipmonk328 8 September 2007

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I've heard that Fuuma of Pein's clan is written with different kanji than the Fuuma clan of the Filler Arc. SwiftTheBaron 03:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The clones

maybe those clone things are the 5 former members plus one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.129.200 (talk) 01:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

NOTE!: DON'T leave a space before you're comment, as it will only stretch the page. Anyway, he also stepped in the capsule things, too. And we should avoid anything on it until the next chapter comes out. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Pain or Pein?

what is the spelling of his name? Pain or Pein, in manga chapter 369 they use Pain, but in the rest they use Pein, does anyone know?....this is such a pain, sorry just had to say that--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 08:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It's Pein. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

thanks, it looks like pein/pain/payne are all correct its just the way you translate it--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 09:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it has to be Pein, we are following the direct translation. σмgнgσмg 09:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

pein sounds better anyway--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 09:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Page is looking good

Just needs a small image for the active members now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.62.159 (talk) 10:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't even understand what was the point of taking them off in the first place. Yxgtree 11:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Basically "Blah Blah blah too many". Pein should have an image, though, and chapter 369 has a very good pic of him without balloons or anything. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

you mean page 14, when he says "it was judgment"?--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 13:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the usefulness of having the images there greatly exceeds the 5 or so seconds time that can be shaved off them for loading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.62.159 (talk) 14:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

All of them are in the spread except Sasori. Pein's face wasn't seen, so he's a keep too. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

well someone else will have to revert my revert as i have reverted 2 times today--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 15:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

They're all in the spread. If you continue, it's possible we might not have images at all. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

A way to hide the long Ref list?

Didn't we find a way to while keeping the Reflist, making it smaller by hiding most of it. Just curious because I thought we finnally found one.--TheUltimate3 18:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It made references not work. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Words on Pein's Capsules

One of the Japanese characters on one of the capsules means one (The one Pein entered). Another says six (across from Pein's capsule). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 21:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Template

Ummm, there's a discussion here about changing the character template. Since no one will likely ever look there, I thought it should've been mentioned here, the most commonly edited talk page, so it'll be more than three people. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Tobi's Identity

The Akatsuki page states that Tobi is Madara Uchiha, while Tobi simply states in Chapter 364, page 18 that his power and Madara's are one and the same, i.e. "My power, Madara's power". It is a strong possibility that Tobi may simply be working for Madara or acting as a conduit for him, but regardless there is no conclusive evidence that the two characters are one and the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays (talk • contribs) 19:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC) Traditional Japanese speach commonly speaks in the third person in which case, Tobi was referring to himself and Uchiha Madara. that and kishimoto wanted to reveal his identity with crazy climax and that was how he chose to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.111.232.107 (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC) --Blue-EyesGold Dragon 03:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, im going to add aswell. according to the most recent chapter at this present time in which this message was posted, Uchiha Madara was just shown in a picture as an older looking Sasuke (like in his 20's) It was also said that he was the founder of the Uchiha Clan, and was defeated by the fourth due to a discrepency. Tobi is then seen standing on a statue of Madara laughing.

Where to begin. First of all, he looks nothing like an older-looking Sasuke to me. He looks, if anything, somewhat-similar to Curse-Seal Stage 2 Sasuke. It never said he was defeated by the fourth. It said he was defeated by the FIRST. There was no mention of any discrepancy, and there was no laughing when he was standing on the statue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.127.210 (talk) 23:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

            -blubbernuget, i dunoo how to do teh `````21:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)` tidl whatever thing.

the manga states that madara uchiha was DEFEATED not killed by the first hokage. Also if people dont believe that tobi is madara, 1. itachi wiped out all known uchiha members, 2. kakuzu was able to fight the 1st hokage and lived so why cant someone else. My friend says that it could possibly be obito uchiha, because: 1. obito gave kakashi his left eye, while tobi's mask only reveals his right eye. 2.the pins in tobi's arms could be medical pins to heal his crushed arms. 3. obito and tobi (the names) look similar. 4. obito was like naruto as a kid and still retains his goofiness. -tavaresiroc

Pein is from the Fuuma clan

it was said that in chapter 369 page 7 that Pein's blood was from the Fuuma clan. I just wanted to let you know that and that Remnants of the former Amegakure were searching for Pein and trying to kill him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Temari y (talk • contribs) 22:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we say his name is then Pein Fuma, isn't it his clans name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 13:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The guy only said it was rumored... he never said it was a fact. Jazz Band Member 20:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Stupid little detail people

Um...on Sasori's dscription of his poison, it says that it kills unless a truly great medical-nin is there. Shouldn't you say that Sakura is the only person who ever figured out the antidote due to it's very difficult recipe? just a thought 209.137.230.93 22:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)(is that what i was supposed to do?)

Well, we don't know for sure if Sakura is the only person to figure out the recipe. Given that she underwent training for only two years, it's doubtful that she'll be making great strides in the medical field. It could be possible, but since Wikipedia centers on verifiability, and we have no way to check that fact thoroughly enough, it's best to stay with what we currently have. I'm not so sure about what you mean by your parenthetical statement, but you didn't seem to do anything wrong. Thank you for your questions. Regards, You Can't Review Me!!! 22:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I just thought I'd mention it. My statement was because i wasn't sure what those tildes did and i wasn't sure if i put em' in the right place. Kakashi The Mirror Ninja 22:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. She trained under Tsunade. Meaning her training was anything but average for a medical Nin. And Chiyo baa-sama saw that in Sakura. She could very likely HAVE learned that much in such a short time. As odd as that sounds, that is what I belive. If you look at it, you might see what I mean. Chipmonk328 13 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 12:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

References

glad to see some third-party references appearing now. BTW, if you need references from Japanese sources, it might be worth visiting WikiProject Japan, you might find someone willing to help out. ELIMINATORJR 15:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Image Amendments

First of all, do not yell at me for bringing this discussion up. I am simply an editor - and reader - who has some concerns about this article. I remained out of the image dispute earlier because I knew something like this would happen.

Anywho. Here's what I propose:

1. Add a facial picture of only Pein and Konan, because they cannot be seen clearly in the group picture.
2. Add a picture for Sasori because he isn't even in the group picture.

And might I add that three (small) extra pictures - especially on an article this large - discussing the topic at hand that are not portrayed anywhere else would not in any way be a gallery, for those who would try to throw that in my face. Of course, feel free to disagree with me, or agree if you are inclined to. I am simply attempting to improve this article. --~|ET|~(^{Talk|Contribs}) 21:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'll certainly disagree with you, not on the suggested changes, but your claim of abuse. No-one was abusing their power as admins - they were complying with Wikipedia policy. ELIMINATORJR 22:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It is but how I view things. Just as I am entitled to my opinion, so are you. Perhaps I just shouldn't have said it. But, that is not what I want to be discussed here, so the comment has since been removed. --~|ET|~(^{Talk|Contribs}) 22:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Curious do you use some kind of Gem loop or binoculars when you look at that Akatsuki group picture because Kakuzu's face is barely visable as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 03:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Ch. 370

In this chapter, Jiraiya reveals to one of his frogs that the Nine-tailed Fox was released by Madara Uchiha himself (The clan's founder), to attack the Leaf Village. The frog says that's crazy, as Madara was around during the time of the village's foundation. Madara was supposedly killed by the Fist Hokage at the Valley of the End. A statue of Madara was built there (shown during Naruto vs. Sasuke). Despite the frog saying it's crazy that Madara is still alive, Jiraiya says that he has a bad feeling about this (Jiraiya is supposedly gonna go fight Pein). Elsewhere, we see Tobi staring down at the image of Madara! His sharingan eye then begins to glow. Now, we know what Madara looks like. I'm not sure if this further reinforces that Tobi is Madara or not. Anyway, more secrets are revealed in chapter 370. I just wanted to mention Akatsuki-related stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 01:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Then get your spoilers straight. He speculates that someone may have summoned the Kyuubi on Konoha and mentions that Madara had summoned the Kyuubi on a prior occasion. –Gunslinger47 01:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 02:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't which dumbasses decided Tobi was Madara, considering even the best translations show that he says he has Madara's power, not the he is Madara. Also, he said that the only person able to summon the Kyuubi was Madara, so it would only make sense if the Kyuubi summoning at Naruto's birth was a result of Tobi using his power to do so. All text declaring that Tobi is Madara should be edited and kept that way. --

71.237.88.74 21:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No, the best translations say that he is calling himself Madara. You're not reading the best translations. The Splendiferous Gegiford 23:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Erm... it never said Madara had summoned the Kyuubi on a previous occasion. Jiraiya simply said that he "might have been capable of it."

Translation Error

暁 is pronounced "akatsuki," but it does not mean red moon -- it means "the break of dawn." Red Moon, which is also pronounced akatsuki, would be written as such 赤月. Konamaiki 01:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. That was actual either a misinformed editor, or a vandal who thought nobody would catch it. I'll be changing it now. Thanks! EDIT: Someone beat me to it. But it was changed.--TheUltimate3 01:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That "misinformed editor" would be me. If you look up Akatsuki, it says that it means "Red Moon". But if you look up Akatsuki (naruto) it says that it means "Dawn". Funny, ain't it?--Cathy

A Good Boy

It has said already that Tobi is refered to as "a good boy" and It says that it implies he is relitively young. However on Uchiha Madara's page, it says that he is Tobi AND battled the first hokage. Thus, he cannot be young at all. is that correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.155.127.246 (talk) 20:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Who the fudge knows man. Its clear that Zetsu called him a good boy making him young, yet it's also true that he battled the First.--TheUltimate3 20:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not clear that Tobi fought the first. Uchiha Madara fought the first, not Tobi. There is no proof that Tobi is Madara.--71.237.88.74 21:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've had problem with that whole "good boy" thing I think that just because Zetsu said "Good boy" doesn't make him young alot of people say good boy and that doesn't mean they're young. I think we should wait for conformation on his age.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 21:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

@ 71.237.88.74, Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Boom. No logic has yet to beat this, and two: Read the latest chapter. Pretty much sums it all up.--TheUltimate3 21:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Kohan

Should we put what the side says for kohan http://saiyanisland.com/370/?a=view&id=&image=1