Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mzoli's Meats: Difference between revisions

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Mzoli's Meats

Contested prod. My prodding reason was: Non-notable restaurant with minor press coverage. We are not the white pages and we are not a travel guide. ^demon^{[omg plz]} 17:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Apparently a notable restaurant, cites a few sources, remember that it is in South Africa and thus probably doesn't have lots of coverage on the internet. I'm sure we can find more sources for this with a little research, the article was only created today. See also Jimbo's comment. Melsaran (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment If any other editor had created that article and made that comment, the response would (or should) have been "so what? - give me notability and reliable sources". ELIMINATORJR 17:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True, but I think that Jimbo understands our notability guidelines and that he would not create an advertising article :) just an idea. Melsaran (talk) 18:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, people are trying to give Jimbo some god-like status and put him above the rules. ^demon^{[omg plz]} 18:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That the article was created by Jimbo may be irrelevant but the fact it was created by a long standing contributor familiar with our policies is significant. This article was not created by someone new to Wikipedia or with an agenda to promote the subject. Might have been worth giving this one a bit more time to be sourced before deleting/AfDing it. WjBscribe 18:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

South Africa is probaly the country in africa that sources can be found the most. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} ^Sports! 01:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - it is undoubtedly a notable South African restaurant. Whether it is notable internationally is less clear. But then there are restaurants in the USA that I have never heard of that have articles, so why not one in South Africa that I have never heard of? Carcharoth 17:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Wasn't Jimbo the one who said we need to stop using {{fact}} and either source it or remove it? As it stands, we've got a non-notable restaurant with almost no sourcing, and the only reason people are scrambling to keep it is because Jimbo authored the original. ^demon^{[omg plz]} 18:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom; in spite of Jimbo's rave reiviews (j/k), I don't know just how notable it is. It definitely needs build-up, which I dont see the sources for. Could someone search the Afrikaaner edition maybe??? - CobaltBlueTony 17:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I'm the author of this version, Jimbo Wales of the original version. The place is clearly one of the more notable establishments in Capetown, South Africa, the subject of considerable coverage. It is a famous place (as per the source, which keeps getting deleted) that is known thorughout South Africa and attracts important politicians and well-known entertainers. It is also a gathering place for the city and nation, and an important example of a black-owned busines that is part of South Africa's new economic development programs. The primary source, "Youth Radio", is a reliable source even if the reporters are in their late teens - does Wikipedida have a bias against young people? It's an internationally syndicated radio program that practices serious journalism and is broadcast on NPR stations, among others. The original version of the article, which I have not seen, was deleted almost instantly. In the past few minutes since this completely new article was created it has been proposed for speedy deletion ~~twice~~ three times as spam, blatant advertising, attacked as non-notable, had its sources challenged, etc. This is a real article about a real, notable business that has received international press. It's sourced. If it's deficient it can be expanded and improved. I've never seen a neutral, informative article under such fierce attack so quickly. I can only surmise that this has something to do with Jimbo Wales being the one who created the first version, and perhaps some lack of understanding about South Africa. A comparable establishment in the United States would not be proposed for deletion. In that case, all of these challenges suffer from WP:POINT. Wikidemo 17:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
week delete - if there is only one reliable secondary media coverage (this article) then I lean to deletion. Yall can't just claim it's notable... we need to see the evidence that it's notable. 1 article doesn't cut it. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. There's more news coverage, concerning the restaurant owner's family (daughter kidnapped, son killed), but also about a big police raid at the restaurant. Perhaps some of this could/should be incorporated into the article. —David Eppstein 18:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's more local; stuff like that happens everyewhere. Is there an international spin on these events? - CobaltBlueTony 18:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Must every Wikipedia article be internationally notable? Marco Borsato is arguably the most popular singer in the Netherlands, but he is not known at all in other countries. Melsaran (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not very comfortable about sourcing an article about a business to news coverage of a tragedy involving the family that run it. WjBscribe 18:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, for now. Jimbo has mentioned looking for sources, and per WP:RUBBISH, this is a surmountable problem. He has already mentioned a desire to fix; why not give him a chance to do so? We can revisit this AfD in time if it isn't fixed. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 18:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm the one that contested the prod, saying that we should give it a bit more than a few hours before pushing for its deletion. *shrug* At least now we've got seven days... EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Mzoli's is notable, and "becoming an international legend." [1] --Aude (talk) 19:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Travel guides aren't really reliable sources Jaranda ^{wat's sup} ^Sports! 01:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Give the article a chance, don't pounce within a few hours of creation. Timrollpickering 20:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - nominating something for deletion just two hours after it was created by a respected Wikipedian (who clearly stated that more content would be forthcoming) is plain rude. I've half a mind to snowball keep this. Even worse - you speedied it?! Seriously?! violet/riga (t) 20:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I don't see the speedy deletion as shocking in any way. Speedy deletion of articles in the state that it was speedied, so soon after creation, with a comment from the creator saying more is coming, happens routinely and is necessary to prevent Wikipedia from filling with cruft. The only thing that makes this case unusual in that respect is the article's creator. If you don't want your new article deleted, you should assert and source some notability from the start, which the speedied version didn't. But anyway, we should be debating the article as it exists now or as it could be improved, not as it was when it was speedied. —David Eppstein 20:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - It was rude and far too hasty. violet/riga (t) 21:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Notable retraunt, not to mention Jimbo is watching... Cheers,Je t Lover (Report a mistake) 21:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The fact that Jimbo wrote it is irrelevant. Jimbo holds just as much authority as any other editor (or administrator, at best) in pretty much any situation (including this one), with the exception of very specific instances. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The point isn't that it was Jimbo, the point is that it was someone who knows the rules. They aren't just adding their favorite restaurant to the Wiki, they're adding an article that they're honestly planning to source later. Most of the CSD tags are by editors who don't have such plans. We need to give our trusted editors a chance to source something they've added; otherwise, it becomes a race to see who can type the fastest, the prodder or the sourcer. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 23:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Preaching to the choir, my friend; I'm all for keeping the article (I wouldn't have removed the prod if I wasn't). I'm just trying to de-mystify the fact that Jimbo did it. I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment that Jimbo is, in this case, no more important than you or I. "Wiki regular" is the exact "pedestal" he should be on right now, but I don't think everyone is treating him as such. EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, my apologies for the misunderstanding. I agree; there is no cabal. And no king, either. He gets no special treatment, but that goes in the positive and negative direction. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 23:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This is unfortunately not eligible for a WP:SNOWBALL keep but I think we can manage to give the article some time to improve. Burntsauce 23:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. If Jimmy Wales has evidence of this establishment receiving non-trivial coverage by independent, reliable sources, it would be greatly appreciated if he could cite such coverage. Right now the only mention by a RELIABLE source is in passing, and the remaining references are very, very weak. I suggest this be re-listed for deletion in a few weeks time if there isn't any traction made in this regard. Thanks! Burntsauce 23:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The blog doesn't look like a RS but you are saying the youth radio station isn't either? Wikidemo thinks it is. Kappa 23:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Notable enough for me. For those seeking additional sources, there is an article available at Newsbank which may be of interest:

Sasha Planting. "A taste of ekasi. Mzoli's Butchery". Financial Mail (South Africa). 15 September 2006. 20. Zagalejo^^^ 01:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC) (It's also available here: [2].)[reply]

Delete I'm pretty sure that all the keep votes were because Jimbo created the article, there is only one independent, reliable source found in the debate so far, not really enough. The remainiding references are either blogs, travel guides and local reviews, which I don't see why these references are "independent". WP:BIAS doesn't apply nither as if it was an average american resterant, it would have been speedied, and if it wasn't created by Jimbo, speedied, or at least flooded with delete votes. If wikipedia keeps articles on every resterant that ever had a review in a newspager or travel guide and consider them "reliable sources", then we would have millions of articles. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} ^Sports! 01:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Did you read the other votes? Don't assume we're all Jimbo sycophants. I'd do the same for any reasonably established and trusted editor. You included. Conversely, if this were obvious cruft written by Jimbo, my vote would've been delete. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 01:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Frankly, I would have loved to vote delete, just to put Jimbo in his place. But the sources, though scant in number, do suggest that this place is a major part of Cape Town culture. It's not a neighborhood pizza joint we're talking about here. Zagalejo^^^ 01:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We do have millions of articles! Carcharoth 01:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I mean million of articles on non-notable resterants, the issue is that it seems like if it was a normal user editing the article, it would be flooded with delete votes right now. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} ^Sports! 02:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Obviously a unique establishment worth an article. Fred Bauder 01:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, looks like 2 RS's (Youth Radio and Financial Mail). Also the Cape Times quote shows it's not just a random restaurant. Kappa 02:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 ::'''Comment''' Frankly, I would have loved to vote delete, just to put Jimbo in his place. But the sources, though scant in number, do suggest that this place is a major part of Cape Town culture. It's not a neighborhood pizza joint we're talking about here. [[User:Zagalejo|Zagalejo]]'''<font color="#008080">[[User talk:Zagalejo|^]]</font><font color="#FF0000">[[Special:Contributions/Zagalejo|^]]</font><font color="#808000">[[Main Page|^]]</font>''' 01:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 ::We ''do'' have millions of articles! [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 01:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
+::: I mean million of articles on non-notable resterants, the issue is that it seems like if it was a normal user editing the article, it would be flooded with delete votes right now. [[User:Jaranda|Jaranda]] [[User_talk:Jaranda|<sup>wat's sup</sup>]] [[Wikipedia:Notabilty (sports)|<sup>Sports!</sup>]] 02:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 *'''Keep''' Obviously a unique establishment worth an article. [[User:Fred Bauder|Fred Bauder]] 01:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 *'''Keep''', looks like 2 RS's (Youth Radio and Financial Mail). Also the Cape Times quote shows it's not just a random restaurant. [[User:Kappa|Kappa]] 02:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)