Talk:Quran and miracles

Un-sourced statements

Lets keep this article free from un-sourced statments. Wanna bet that it will get a AFD? --Striver 19:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that you have lost the bet. As there is not AFD even after many months. --- ابراهيم 20:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Title

Is the title of this article correct? Or maybe the text about the Qur'an being a miricle in itself has grown out of proportions and should be given an article of it's own. I was not expecting it here... I suggest a new page on The Linguistic and Literary Inimitability of the Qur'an. Info D 14:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

statistical section unclear

What do the numbers signify???
On the word counts it should be mentioned that you have to count only singular forms without any pronoun attached to obtain 365 occurences of "day" while to count "angels" 88 times you have to take any form you can find.

"unique" a meaningless word in this context

Discussion of all the ways a book imitating the Koran would have to be "unique" betray circular reasoning. To be unique means to be one of a kind. If anything imitates the Koran, it is by definition not one of a kind -- it's an imitation. But these exact criteria could be applied to, say, James Joyce. No doubt James Joyce isn't a prophet. Peccavimus 17:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

= The section Scientific Miracles contains Original Research.

The section "Scientific Miracles" states, "In Quran there is a hint of both big bang and big crunch." and then goes on. This is original research as the wording is unattributed to anyone who is a cosmologist. Yes reading the stated sura with it "We produce a new one:" would indicate a cycle of creation but who are we to describe it as such. We won't mention the illogic of the wording a "scientific miracle". The scientific method usually precludes miracles in that it precludes a supernatural origin for events. Ttiotsw 11:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Reason for tagging with cleanup.

I accidently hit this page and truthfully it's a bit messy full of original research and unattributed content. The section on Linguistic and Literary Inimitability needs a serious cull or if it's a topic in it's own right then moved to another page. As to why the rediscovery of the City of Iram is a miracle we'll never know. The reference for that is a web page and our Wikipedia page fails to highlight the numbers of people who feel it is a miracle or if it's just a few then the authority of those people. As for the "Mathematical" - this isn't maths. It is numerology at best. Ttiotsw 13:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

NEW reason to tag with cleanup and weasel wording.

The article was reverted to a 3 month old copy by someone. This has left the article even worse than before with nearly every sentence having classic weasel wording (truthfully I actually prefer ferrets but weasels will do). The numerology stuff still makes no sense even if you are pissed on this years wine and have forgotten all maths since kindergarten. Erich Von Daniken, come back, all is forgiven compared to this stuff; at least you had Aliens and spaceships and stuff. If this all makes no sense then read the article and tell me which is clearer. Ttiotsw 21:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

verses

see next last section, before the section regarding the treaty. --Striver 03:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality and wiki rules

This page has nothing to do as taking a side in the discussion if the Quran is of divine origin or it is the work of Muhammad. So, we cannot present biased arguments such as "Muhammad, who was influenced by older Jewish and Christian traditions, also included ..." as facts. There exist other wiki pages on this issue: "critism of Muhammad", "critisim of Quran", etc. The page must focus on the Quran.

We do not need to give a reference other than wiki page about the "ayat" for the sentence "verses of the book are referred to as ayat, which also means "a miracle" in the Arabic language." The mentioned wiki page states it clearly. I agree with the idea that wiki pages are not summary of a particular book.

And I see that many relevant external links are being removed for the sake of unrelated arguments.

This page has already been pruned greatly. Let us not make the same mistakes in the very beginning of the development of the page. Otherwise, I believe that a systematical vandalism is being applied for this page. (American force 21:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC))

Other wiki pages cannot serve as references (see WP:V, only "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" are acceptable). You are true that it is better to have more sources than one, but at least one reliable source is needed. I think that the proper solution is to add other reliable scholarly sources and not delete the current one. - Moreover you should know that the "systematical vandalism" saved this article from deletion not so long ago (see the AfD discussion linked above).--Ioannes Pragensis 08:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the link for the ayat stays for now. However, the statement about divinity of Quran does not add something to the content. I think the solution is not to add any controversial sentences without consensus. Also, some external links are being removed in every revison, please do not remove them. (American force 14:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC))

If you are honest to develop a good article please stop reverting. I have restored the previous references. I think a brief discussion about the origin of Quran is relevant here, it is the main point of Muslim argument to present Quran as a miracle. I do not agree with Sefringle about the low importance of this article. There are even master and PhD theses over this topic.(Freskile 17:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC))

Neutrality

When writing and editing this article, be aware that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. That means, this article is not to become an Islamist propaganda article desined to convert people to Islam. It should mention the relevant and notable so-called miracles and responses, but should not be used for propaganda.--Sefringle 05:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Quran quotes

Quoting the quran without quoting a secondary source is against wikipedia policies. See WP:NPOV#Undue weight. It says

From Jimbo Wales, paraphrased from this post from September 2003 on the mailing list:

If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;

If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

In other words, quoting the quran without a secondary source is WP:OR

See also: WP:OR#What is excluded?.

It says:

It introduces a theory or method of solution;

It introduces original ideas;

It defines new terms;

It provides or presumes new definitions of pre-existing terms;

It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position;

It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;

It introduces or uses neologisms, without attributing the neologism to a reputable source. --Sefringle 21:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

---

You are really unbelievable(!), and your arguments are not even convincing.

"If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority": There is no viewpoint here, and I hope you are not referring to Muslims as an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, that would only be funny ..

"It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument": there is a citation, also there is a reputale source.

At least read your talk page; I will quote the words of "Ioannes Pragensis" from that page -I hope he won't mind-

Regarding the Quran quotes: I think that clearly understandable quotes from acknowledged primary sources are not regarded as WP:OR. ("Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source." - And the description of miracles is probably easily understandable in the cited places of Quran.)

The primary source here is the Quran, and they are published by a reliable source 'usc.edu', even a wiki template exist for this.

So, direct quotations are allowed here. If it were not the case, the page which you presented as an example in another discussion, Miracles attributed to Jesus would be full of references. I can present here much much more examples of wiki articles diretly quoting from Bible and Quran.

Wiki pages are not for propaganda, this also means they cannot be used for an anti-Islamist propaganda. Please do not try to misuse wikirules with some biased comments. (American force 04:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC))

---

Also, there is no sense to embed so many Quranic verses into the context when they are just given as reference. The initial writer's choice was also in this way, and it is the common style of article writing.(American force 04:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC))

That doesn't change the fact that it is an extermely small minority view unless you or someone else can prove otherwise. You claim there are muslims who believe the quran has miracles. Prove it. If you can't by citing reputable sources, than it is a very small minority view.--Sefringle 04:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The discussion was about the usage of Quranic quotes. For the claim "there are muslims who believe the quran has miracles", the writer has already stated his source. (American force 04:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC))

The one and only source he mention is NOT reliable, notable, or scholarly.--Sefringle 04:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

additions by Slsm07

I removed these additions because they are cited to Ibrham, I.A. I have no evidence that this is either a scholar or even a notable person. The other thing is sourced to submission.org, which is not a reliable source.--Sefringle^Talk 18:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Sefringle. All im supposed to do was to cite the book. Here's some more info from Amazon if you need.[1] We are not given evidence here that all the other authors of the books and articles cited here are notable or scholars. These miracles do not have to be true nor do they have to be from a scholar, as long as there are widely claimed, as claimed miracles in the Quran are important in an article titled “Quran and miracles”. This is a published book, and that is the qualification I used to say that these are widely claimed. And for the Submission.org, cited for Mr.Bucaille's lecture, i cited another website which also has his lecture, although you might claim this to be a POV site too. Could you find a site, that you like, which has his lecture instead of just deleting the section?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Slsm07 (talk • contribs)

The point is who is I.A. Ibrham? Per WP:NPOV, we are not supposed to inlude fringe views. I need some evidence that this person is either notable or a scholar. Also as this is a POV topic, every view needs to ba attributed to its author, and not stated as fact.--Sefringle^Talk 02:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed most of the scientists, because most of them are not notable. We cannot have non-notable views in the article. See WP:N. I kept Bucaille, because he is the only one who is notable by wikipedia standards of notability.--Sefringle^Talk 03:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I am removing the science section because I can't figure out who is the author or how to attribute it to the author.--Sefringle^Talk 06:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

====Mountains stabilize the ground==== The Qur’an states, “And he has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you”."quoted text"^{[Quran 16:15]} The modern theory of plate tectonics does hold that mountains act as stabilizers for the earth. Furthermore, this knowledge has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.

====Prefrontal area of cerebrum==== The Qur’an describes the front of the head as being lying and sinful; “No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the front of the head, a lying and sinful front of the head!.” "quoted text"^{[Quran 96:15–16]} In the brain, the front of the head corresponds to the prefrontal area of the cerebrum, where the foresight to plan and initiate movements occur. It is also the functional center of aggression. Scientists have discovered these functions of the prefrontal area in the last sixty years.

====Seas and Rivers==== The Qur’an states, “He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.”"quoted text"^{[Quran 55:19–20]} When two different seas meet there is a barrier between them so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity and density. For example, when the Mediterranean meets the Atlantic they do not mix, although there may be large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas. When fresh water and salt water meet there is a partition, which has a marked discontinuity in salinity. This zone of separation has a different salinity from both the fresh and sea water. The Qur’an speaks differently about the fresh and salt water; “He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.”"quoted text"^{[Quran 25:53]}

====Deep seas and internal waves====

The Qur’an states, “Or the unbeliever’s state is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it”."quoted text"^{[Quran 24:40]} At depths below 1000 meters in deep seas there is no light at all. Human beings are not able to dive more than forty meters without the aid of submarines or special equipment and cannot survive unaided in the deep dark part of the oceans, such as at a depth of 200 meters. Scientists have recently discovered this darkness by means of special equipment and submarines that have enabled them to dive into the depths of the oceans.

This verse also mentions “waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds”. Surface waves never arise above one another. Clearly, the latter waves mentioned are the visible surface waves since above these surface waves are clouds. However, the first set of waves are argued to describe internal waves, which occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities. These waves can break and act like surface waves, however, they cannot be seen by the human eye.

====Cloud formation==== The Qur’an states, “Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it .”"quoted text"^{[Quran 24:43]} A common type of rain cloud, the cumulonimbus cloud, follows this description. These clouds are formed when the wind pushes some small pieces of clouds, cumulus clouds, to an area where these clouds join together, forming a larger cloud. When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase, causing the cloud body to grow vertically. This vertical growth, in turn, causes the cloud to stretch into cooler regions where water droplets and hail form, eventually becoming too heavy to be supported by the updraft and falls as precipitation.

====Lightening==== The Qur’an speaks about “hail” and “its lightening”; “And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightening nearly blinds the sight.” "quoted text"^{[Quran 24:43]} In the formation of lightening, a cloud becomes electrified as hail collides with liquid droplets, which then freeze and release latent heat, keeping the surface of the hailstones warmer than the surrounding ice crystals. When the hailstone comes into contact with an ice crystal, electrons flow from the colder object toward the warmer object and the negative charge is then discharged as lightening. Hail is thus argued as a major factor in lightening.

I am putting back these edits because the objection to them - that these edits are not notable- is invalid. See WP:N. The Wikipedia guidelines of notibility "give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles". Miracles of the Qur'an are very relevant and needed in an article titled "Qur'an and miracles". Slsm07 04:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

They are not reliable sources. Relevance is important, but reliability is more important, and I.A. Ibrhim is not a reliable source. Yahel Guhan 04:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

scientific miracles of quran

it makes sense to list the scientific miracles of quran as it is very relevant to the title of the article, i added some scientific miracles and they were deleted twice, what i have listed is: notable,relevant, referenced, and does not apply as original research (Imad marie (talk) 06:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC))

Saying that "The verse is compatible with the commonly accepted big bang theory." is your own opinion. If you can say that, that means, I should also be able to say "Quran is not compatible with modern science". Thats where's OR comes in. Please read up on the policy: WP:OR. If a famous Islamic person/scholar says that, then you can put it in the article and even then, you must attribute the line to who said it. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 00:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What I did, is list the similarities between the Quran verses and the scientific facts, and then it's for the reader to decide weather the verses are really related or no, if your objection is to the word "compatible" it can be changed.

About the famous Islamic scholar, I can list a number of scholars that admits the relation, but how do u define "famous" ? (Imad marie (talk) 09:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC))

Famous is notable and plus, a reliable source must mention that this scholar has said this. For example, BBC can report a certain Islamic scholar saying that. This sentence: "The verse is compatible with the commonly accepted big bang theory" is not you leaving the reader to decide whether its a miracle or not, alright. You're telling the reader that its a miracle and it follows science. You cant make these deductions yourself. If you want to mention a Quranic verse, thats all you can do. You can quote it. You cant make deductions or conclusions about it with regards to its 'miraculous' nature. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 12:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The scholar (Dr.Zaghloul Elnaggar) you used is not famous or notable. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 13:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

how can you judge that Dr. Zaghloul is not famous? because you do not know him?

Dr. Zaghlool El-Naggar is a Fellow of the Islamic Academy of Sciences. Member of the Geological Society of London, the Geological Society of Egypt and the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Fellow of the Institute of Petroleum, London. Prof. Naggar is the author/co-author of many books and more than 40 research papers in the field of Islamic Thought, Geology, General Science and Education. He was awarded by the Ministry of Education in Egypt the top “Secondary Education Award” as well as the seventh Arab Petroleum Congress Best Papers Award in 1970. Elected a member of the IAS Council (1994 and 1999), Prof. Naggar is currently working at the Arab Development Institute.

and IslamOnline site is headed by Dr. Yusuf Qardawi, a well known Islamic scholar. You not hearing of them, does not make them "not famous" (Imad marie (talk) 15:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC))

Wikipedia has specific criteria on which it establishes the notability of individuals. Whether or not Dr. El-Naggar satisfies the requirements is debatable, but I can tell you that the information you've presented above is not as satisfactory as you may believe. I don't commonly deal with notability issues, so I have no comment on this case, but I will take a look at it if time warrants.--C.Logan (talk) 18:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)