Talk:Palestinians

The Roman rule and the name

It is worth to mention that after the Roman expel the Jews they changed the name from Judea to Palestine. 87.69.77.82 18:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It's in the Palestine article. It's off topic here. <<-armon->> 10:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

RS

On the current edit skirmish on the intro - a magazine article by a non-expert cannot be considered an RS for such a claim. We need another source - an academic source, that is, by an expert in the field (political science, I guess). I'm sure it won't be hard to find - it's not a very contentious claim. okedem 21:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not the author's claim, it's the claim in the book he is reviewing by Rashid Khalidi, who is extensively quoted in this article and is a reocgnized authority on the subject. Stoip deleting it. Tiamut 20:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If we're talking about the Samaritans, the situation with them is complex and they shouldn't be included as "Palestinian". A quote from the cite:

"In the West Bank, they are caught between the Israeli army and the Palestinian population. They must remain neutral in the face of Palestinian and Israeli politics, differentiating from the two sides, and also their neighbors, Jewish settlers." link

Looks like a real stretch to include them under the "Palestinian" label. The cite also says that there are Samaritan members of the PA, but that the community is also proud to serve in the IDF. <<-armon->> (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem including Samaritans if we could show that a significant portion have citizenship, since this is an issue of national identification. We shouldn't be using various rhetoric as a substitute though, something which is even clearer in the case of Druze and Jews. As far as I know, there are no Druze settlements in the West Bank, while those in Israel make a point of serving in the military. The Golan Heights have nothing to do with Palestinians, and those Druze identify with Syria. I recall that all this was discussed months ago though... Tewfik^Talk 18:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

They do hold Palestinian citizenship. I though one of the cites I provided already said that. But self-identification is sufficient here. See this and note that "A small Samaritan community still exists, especially around Nablus, and they both speak Arabic and identify with the Palestinians." Tiamut 20:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

"Most common term"

Armon, can you give me the source for the claim that "Palestinians" is the "most common term" for the subject of this article? Thanks, --G-Dett (talk) 23:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a source which states it explicitly but there is this (5,310) vs. this (17,400). I'd have to appeal to a bit of common sense on part of the editors here. <<-armon->> (talk) 00:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Only a fraction of those 17,400 hits in your Google Scholar search use the phrase "the Palestinians" in a sense synonymous/interchangeable with the subject of this article: Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine. Many (perhaps most) use it as in reference to a much smaller subset of that collective entity. Looking at the first page of search results (ten hits), for example: #1 and #8 refer only to "the Palestinians" living in Israel (i.e. Arab-Israelis); and #2, #3, #5, and #7 refer to "the Palestinians" living in the occupied territories (and/or their political leadership). Only four out of ten (#4, #6, #9, #10) refer collectively to the subject of this article.--G-Dett (talk) 16:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

OK well even 40% of 17,400 is still more than 5,310. Also, if we're slightly less strict with the sources, and search Google News, we get 2,004 vs. 11,618. <<-armon->> (talk) 19:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyway you cut it, in most instances the phrase "the Palestinians" does not refer to the subject of this article, but rather to the occupied territories as a political entity; in other words, to what we'd call "Palestine" if Palestine were a state. Hence it's usually paired with "Israel":

– Only 16 percent said their sympathies lay with the Palestinians, compared to 45 percent for Israel...
– A stalemate in negotiations may lead Israel and the Palestinians to write up separate statements detailing their political agendas ahead of the U.S.-led peace conference...
– The fate of some 3.5 million Palestinian refugees across the Arab world is one of the toughest issues in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. ...

Those are all examples from the first page of results from your Google News search. Another helpful indication that this or that instance of "the Palestinians" refers to the political entity rather than the diasporic people is when substituting one for the other yields nonsense or something at least very odd-sounding. To take another example from the first page of your Google News search: "The Palestinians have named a road after Sri Lankan President Mahinda Rajapaksa to signify his steadfast commitment to their cause over the past 30 years." Note how bizarre the substitution would sound. These just aren't synonyms.--G-Dett (talk) 20:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Even if we accept your assertion that in most instances the phrase "the Palestinians" does not refer to the subject of this article (which is I think is dubious, but for the sake of argument...) it's still by far, the most common name. <<-armon->> (talk) 20:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

No, "John Smith" is the most common name, but it's not a name for the subject of this article. "The Palestinians" sometimes is and sometimes isn't, and is in that respect ambiguous in a way "Palestinian people" isn't. If there's evidence that the former is a more common name than the latter for the subject of this article, you haven't shared it with us.--G-Dett (talk) 20:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Please spare us the proof by assertion -it's a waste of time. <<-armon->> (talk) 20:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, if there's evidence that "the Palestinians" is a more common name than "Palestinian people" for the subject of this article, you haven't shared it with us. I don't think you understand what proof by assertion is, but when you wrote "it's still by far, the most common name" in response to a request for evidence of same, that was a pretty good example.--G-Dett (talk) 21:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Evidence. Even if you can argue the toss about the use of the term 60% of the time, the remaining 40% of 17,400 is still more than for the "Palestinian people" phrase -and that's without arguing the toss regarding those results. There is also Google News, where we get 2,004 vs. 11,618. <<-armon->> (talk) 19:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Smearing Golda Meir as a racist unjustly

I have re-added the section on ARAB leaders who state that the so-called "Palestinian People" do not exist. This is necessary because the attempt to only quote Golda Meir is a transparent attempt to paint Golda Meir and the State of Israel as racist and thus violates the NPOV standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoricalReality (talk • contribs) 14:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Fictitious histories,Countries and the creation of fictitious Peoples in an effort to smear the Jewish People

This addition to the "Palestinian People" article is an attempt to discuss and determine the extent to which there is , was or will ever be any peoples known as the palestinians.