Talk:Lamb and mutton

WikiCookBook

I put a redirect into Wiki Cookbook, sending 'Lamb (food)' to 'Lamb'. Unfortunately there are not yet any recipes for this delicious little animal. Can someone more culinarily capable than I please fix this? :)

The Wiki Cookbook link at the bottom of the page points to Cookbook:Lamb (food). <Syntax?> It should point to Cookbook:Lamb. Can someone more wikicapable than I please fix this?

Who knew something so cute was so tasty? ^_^--Dangerous-Boy 07:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Definition of mutton

Should "Female (ewe) and castrated male (wether) " read "Female (ewe) OR castrated male (wether)" ? Hope someone can help. Lambyuk 10:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I think I did that edit which I've now fixed. Thanks. -- I@n ≡ talk 07:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Separate page needed for "mutton"

I disagree with the redirect of "mutton" to Lamb (food), because "mutton" has at least one other definition -- in South and Southeast Asia, "mutton" is used generally to refer to red meat, and specifically to goat's meat. I tried to figure out a way to work in a mention of this definition here, but it doesn't make sense to give an alternative definition of "mutton" when the title of the article is "Lamb (food)." Acsenray 14:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The same thought had crossed my mind. Why not have a separate Mutton article? -- I@n 14:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I added a similar thought to the Mutton discussion page. --Paul Moloney 13:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Extra link

Is the muttonbird link at the end really appropriate? It doesn't really relate to lambs. If we need some kind of disambiguation, shouldn't that be done at Mutton? 130.240.98.187 16:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

United Kingdom & Eire

I think this should be added to the list of places where lamb is an important/predominant part of national and/or traditional cuisine. It is! Plutonium27 23:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Spelling

I can't find a dictionary that spells "Hoggett" so, but "Hogget" is an accepted spelling. Could we have a definitive answer?

81.174.151.35 23:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Seinfeld

Something should be mentioned about the episode where Jerry is on a diet and is forced to eat mutton by a date of his. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.231.86 (talk • contribs)

I definitely agree! I tried to add this and wikipedia immediately deleted it, saying that it wasn't relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.75.87.60 (talk • contribs)

Sheepmeat is not a word?

Someone forgot to tell the Sheepmeat Council of Australia, Ireland's Beef and Sheepmeat Fund and the USDA. Ewlyahoocom 06:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I have looked in several dictionaries and none have the word "sheepmeat". Please find me one dictionary with this word to verify that it in fact exists officially in the English language. Robbie098 07:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I was rather surprised to learn that such a word exists, but I think even if it is not a word found in the dictionary, the fact that various agencies around the world lends credence to the usage of the word -- and having a WP article named as such. Chensiyuan 07:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions:

Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Obviously "sheepmeat" is not what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize. I also had never heard of this word before. As far as linking goes, there are barely any articles that even mention this word, and none that link to it directly. So it is basically a direct contradiction to policy. Robbie098 09:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

What is your suggestion for what the article should be called? Chensiyuan 12:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that though "sheepmeat" may be in bureaucratic use, it is not the common English name. How about "Lamb and mutton (meat)" (hoggett is a rather specialized and uncommon term)? --Macrakis 16:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I think it might be better to choose between the two (maybe Lamb (meat) vs Mutton). I am leaning slightly toward Lamb (meat), I think "lamb" is the most common name and "meat" is probably the best disambiguation word (much better than "food"). Robbie098 18:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Would Sheep meat (with a space in the middle) be more acceptable to you? Ewlyahoocom 19:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The thing is that naming conventions are that Wikipedia articles should be named according to what English speakers recognize and use most often. I have never heard anyone refer to lamb/mutton as "sheep meat". Like Macrakis said, this is simply not the common name for it. I believe that "lamb" is the word most people use, so that should be the name of the article. I agree that the original name of Lamb (food) was not very appropriate, so I support a move to Lamb (meat). Robbie098 21:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I was proposing "Lamb or mutton (meat)" because I thought that there might be areas where "mutton" was as common as "lamb". But the Google searches for lamb/mutton recipe on site:uk, site:au, etc. (e.g. [lamb recipe site:uk]) show that even in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand, the term "lamb" in cooking contexts is much more common (6x) than "mutton"; "hogget", in turn is much rarer than "mutton". So I would support "Lamb (meat)". The opening paragraph, though, should definitely mention mutton and probably hogget. --Macrakis 21:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep, agreed. The text of the article should mention all names, but the title should be the most commonly used one. So, any opposition to moving this to Lamb (meat)? Robbie098 01:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I oppose on the basis that it is imprecise. Ewlyahoocom 01:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Titles are bound to be imprecise, and in any case Wikipedia policy (cited above) leans towards familiarity rather than pedantic precision in titles. Sheepmeat is a useful term for bureaucrats and industry associations, but unknown to the general public. --Macrakis 15:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Another possibility is Lamb and mutton -- mutton unambiguously refers to meat, so the qualifier (meat) probably isn't necessary. --Macrakis 15:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, like you said before, "lamb" is really the most used word. In everyday spoken English I would say it is used even more than 6 times as much as "mutton" is. I think even the most liberal interpretation of WP:NC justifies this move. Robbie098 02:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to reiterate: I oppose on the basis that it is imprecise. Please refer to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). And while the word "sheepmeat" may be unfamiliar to some, anyone that sees it immediately understands its meaning. Ewlyahoocom 02:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Some? This word is unfamiliar to most if not all. When I searched for "lamb" and found the page was named this I was utterly confused and did not "immediately understand" why it would be called a name I had never heard. And I understand what your argument is. Macrakis responded to it above: "Titles are bound to be imprecise, and in any case Wikipedia policy (cited above) leans towards familiarity rather than pedantic precision in titles". The very page you just linked to furthers our argument, since this word is not in any dictionary. And even if it was: "If a consensus is impossible to reach on precision, go with the rule of thumb, and use the more popular phrase." Robbie098 02:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED to Lamb and mutton, per discussion below. There were about six different titles on the table, of which the two most popular seemed to be Sheep meat and Lamb and mutton. The argument against Lamb and mutton is that it's a bit awkward, while the argument against sheep meat is that it's not common in English. It was a close call, and I decided to go with the more common name. If you have any questions, please let me know. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

---

Sheepmeat → Lamb (meat) — article covers lamb, hoggett and mutton, disagreement about what the article should be called —Ewlyahoocom 02:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support sheep meat (cf. dog meat or goat meat [a redirect]). Oppose the current title as it is evidently unknown to a number of English speakers. Oppose lamb (meat) or mutton because these terms are subsets of the whole topic. Oppose lamb and mutton as awkward. Oppose sheep (meat) because meat is not a disambiguator in this case; the topic is the meat of sheep. — AjaxSmack 19:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose if it doesn't come from the lamb, a stage in sheep development, it shouldn't be called "lamb (meat)". That would be like referring to beef as veal. 132.205.99.122 19:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
• sheep meat per Ajax. Gets the whole set of lamb, mutton, etc. sheepmeat is odd. sheep (meat) implies disambig. I don't have any better options myself. Martijn Hoekstra 00:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support Lamb (meat) or Lamb and mutton. "Sheepmeat" in English is limited to bureaucrats and industry associations. "Sheep meat" is unidiomatic and uncommon. --Macrakis 15:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support Sheep meat, an excellent suggestion. Ewlyahoocom 09:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support Lamb and mutton per Macrakis. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support Sheep meat, an excellent suggestion. Also support Sheep (meat) as that does dab from Sheep. -- quota (talk) 20:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support on the basis that Wikipedia does't use technical or scientific names as the title of an article when they're more unfamiliar than the common name, even when the common name is less accurate (i.e. Domestic sheep rather than Ovis aries). Rinkuhero (talk) 05:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support Lamb and mutton per Macrakis and Septentrionalis, but not Lamb (meat) on its own. – Axman (☏) 05:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

How about: 'Sheep (meat)'? 'Sheepmeat' seems unnecessarily obfuscatory. quota 17:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

That should probably exist as a redirect to wherever this ends up. 132.205.99.122 19:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.