Talk:Young Turks

Flagged for cleanup

First, to the various authors of this page, there's a lot of great information in this article. However, the clarity of the article is being affected by some awkward grammar and phrasing. I attemped to address some of these issues, but the article really needs someone familiar with the topic, who is English proficient, to properly perform a cleanup. With respect --Sir E. D. W. Lynch 20:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The info on the Young Turks is pretty much included in the Ottoman Empire#Internal Collapse section, but enough pages link to Young Turks including the afforementioned section that I decided to make a separate article. Perhaps someone will add more info. Also the section mentioned also has a link to Committee of Union and Progress which is the official name of the Young Turks. I don't know which article will have to redirect to which one. Dori 06:02, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

---

I read that some of the Salonika Young Turks were Donmeh (some Daud Pasha?). How does this match with the accusations of mistreatment of minorities? How did the YT treat the Donmeh? --Error 02:07, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Be cautious reading old British Foreign Office stuff. They were convinced at the beginning that the Young Turks were being manipulated by Jews, etc etc. See A Peace to End All Peace .Wetman 02:46, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I read it in Farewell España, a divulgation of Sephardic history by a Jewish historian, but I may have misremembered the details.

--Error 01:39, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

To Coolcat: First, factual accuracy disputes must be substantiated on the talk page. Specific points, more precise than "Its full of opinions than facts", are necessary. Second, the allegation (placed at the top of the article, alas) that this is "a sub article of Armenian Genocide article" clearly demonstrates the truth of your statement that you are not knowledgeable enough to fix it. Since you admit to lacking knowledge of the subject, I ask that you refrain from editing the article until you gain that knowledge. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 23:02, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Respectfully

Do not ask me to leave.

Appears to be a sub article of Armenian Genocide article, either should be merged with it as the alligations are an international dispute. Its full of opinions than facts.

Asks someone else to fix it. -- Cat ^chi? 19:53, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(Cool Cat has replaced his tag, without any specific reference to any wording he objects to.)

Respectfully, do not add ludicrously wrongheaded assertions like the one that this is a "sub article of Armenian Genocide" that "should be merged with it", and do not add accuracy disputes without substantiating them. You only reveal that you have not the least idea what you are talking about and have, apparently, not read the article that you are attacking. If you knew anything about the Young Turks, had you even read this article, you would realize that there was far more to them than the Armenian Genocide—and look, this article discusses the Armenian Genocide in one half of one sentence, a sentence on the Young Turks' treatment of minorities within the empire. As it should.

Now, if you still have something to dispute about this article, please explain what it is. What are these assertions that you believe to be opinions rather than facts? Why do you believe that they are opinions, not facts? What are your sources for your assertions? Nobody can fix this article if you won't even say what the problem is. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 19:24, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

reformist->constitutionalist, nationalist->patriotic change

Reformists had been in the power since Tanzimat even Mahmud II. 50 years till first constitution (1876), 80 years till the second (1908). What made Young Turks different was they wanted limitation of government(Turkish: Mesrutiyet) by Basic Law (Turkish: Kanun-i Esasi).

Also, as indicated later in the article, Young Turks were a broad based coalition and first generation Young Turks, such as Mithat Pasha etc. certainly was not nationalist. There were members of minorities, liberals, anti-centralists and many others. --Calm 20:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

But the young turks were responsible for the Armenian Genocide, is this what you are disputing ?

the armenian genocide was not a genocide it was a civil war or a war of countries trying to gain indepedance. Just look at Azeri genocide and turkish genocide they were not genocide but in south east turkey there was a fight for land.These death march never existed and ottoman governemnt never exterminate armenians. My answer is no because the young Turks were fighting against armenian rebels and in the process they may have killed innocent people but during that it was common thing for innocent people to get killed. I ask wikipedia to put up the two sides because if look armenian side of so called armenian genocide they do not recognize that were four ethnic peoples of this region they are Kurds, Azerbaijanis, Turks and armenians. Both Azerbaijanis and Turks do not recognize the genocide.

POV check template added

"Their principles were admirable", "A detailed analysis of their ideas reveals", "A thorough examination of the Weltanschauung ... leaves no doubt" -- this is not the language of Wikipedia. Joriki 00:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I am adding the POV template back. Some contibutors' sole presence and contiributions are to promote their view on the alleged Armenian genocide. It does not serve justice to this interesting subject of Young Turks. Nostradamus1 08:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If you are trying to argue that Genocide did not take place, you must do that somewhere else, specifically the Armenian Genocide article. Unless you are trying to tell me that the Young Turks were completely unconnected to the events of 1915, that it did not happen under their rule, then you have no reason to remove the template. Also, you should not add a POV template when you have removed the material you find biased. The Myotis (talk) 03:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not interested in the subject of Armenian genocide and I have to prove nothing. The burden of proof is not on my shoulders. Even if there was such a proof one needs to do a better job than just trying to stick in sentences such as "The Young Turks were responsible for orchestrating the Armenian Genocide, as well as the Assyrian Genocide". Though I doubt anyone questions the tragedy of that time this still is very much a disputed subject that should be discussed elsewhere. You are implying that this is an established fact. The Young Turk movement started more than half a century before 1915 and by sticking to your little ethnic agenda you are not doing and justice to the subject. Nostradamus1 12:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You do not have to prove anything as far as this discussion goes, no, but you do have to give us a valid reason for removing a connected group. And yes, I would say that the role of the Young Turks, or at least the Three Pasha triumvirate that ruled the movement during the Calamity, is extremely well-established. As you have made it clear you do not want to discuss the actual history of the matter, I instead want an explanation as to why, exactly, you don't want the template their. Do you simply think that the event was just not significant enough to be connected to the responsible party, or that the template was just to distracting? And the Young Turk movement was only officially established 6 years before the events took place, and even the furthest inkling of its existence only go back 26 years, so don't go off on how it was just an eyeblink in the party's history.The Myotis (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm only interested in couple arguments in this discussion. I'm not in discussion of Armenian Genocide. Do not bring arguments that involves events or ideologies originated after 1914.

Some of the claims of this discussion needs proof. Was Young Turks a "party" to be claimed as the "responsible party?" It is that reason this template includes Young Turks? The template claims "Young Turks are the responsible part of killing 1.5 million Armenian" If not, why is it in the template? We agree, as a minimum point, that Young Turks were a a coalition of various groups (loosely organized) favoring reforming the administration of the Ottoman Empire. But does that mean this was as tight as Nazis? Can anyone designate Young Turks as "anti-Armenian", with a tool and ideology to "orchestrate a genocide" before the deportations of 1915-1916?. We can do it for Nazis, can't we? In the lack of corresponding structures of Nazism
-->> "Nazi organizations (Nazi Party, Sturmabteilung, Schutzstaffel, Hitler Youth"), Nazi ideology (Nazism and race, Gleichschaltung, Hitler's political beliefs, National Socialist Program, Occult aspects within Nazism, Nazi propaganda, Nazi architecture, Mein Kampf), Nazism and race (Nazism and race, Racial policy of Nazi Germany, Nazi eugenics Doctors' Trial, Nazi physicians, Nazi human experimentation, Nazism and Religion, Nuremberg Trials) <<--
Also, Nazism was anti-parliamentarism, ethnic nationalism, racism, collectivism, eugenics, antisemitism, opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism. If we look Young Turks:

Young Turks	Nazis
parliamentarism - they established the constitution.	anti-parliamentarism
Nationalism: love of the country but not based on ethnicity; Enver=Carcasian from Tajikistan, Ziya Gökalp a Kurd from Diyarbakir, Talat Pasha a Gypsy, Mehmed Cavid Bey a Jew, Yusuf Akçura (1876-1935) a Crimean Tatar...	ethnic nationalism
There ware Arabs, Asians, Anglos among them ...	racism
Except the revolution, was there anything else they were agreed on?	collectivism
??	eugenics
There were Armenians among them. There are high ranking Armenian officials during WWI ! The central bank of Ottoman Empire was manged by an Armenian.	antisemitism

I guess User:The Myotis needs to express himself a little more. His defense of including the Young Turks in the template needs more substance. Regarding the Young Turks as a homogeneous entity with the aim of extermination before 1915-1916. It is a weak assumption that the criminal intent of Young Turks originated in 1914 and executed 1.5 milion Armenians, beginning 1915. Antisemitism had centuries old history. --Born1913 14:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of unsubstantiated claims, you just made a boatload of them. First, there may have been a handful of Armenians on the Ottoman Government, but perhaps you were not aware that the same could be said about Jews in the Nazi bureaucracy. And I am not saying that the Young Turk revolution was inherently Antiarmenic, not until the Three Pasha Triumvirate took over, at least, but that certainly does not mean that the events did not happen under Young Turk rule. There is not evidence that Tallat was Roma, or that Enver was a ciricassian, or Cavid was a Jew, or for that matter that any of the above cited are the the ethnicities you claim them to be. But, really, that hardly matters, as none the Turanist/nationalist elements became apparent until much later, and was bent mainly on unifying Anatolia as a Turkish-speaking Muslim entity. No, I never claimed that the Young Turks were born into the world with a hate towards the Armenians, and it is foolish to believe that is what I meant. We must remember, however, that these things were done under Young Turk rule, even if not ideologically identical to the one of 10 or 20 years before. For example, the Young Turks were not pro-war, but it would also be completely appropriate to list them as a participating power in

Also, why did you insist on comparing the Young Turks to Nazi Germany? Does the connection have to be that direct to justify adding a template. If the Nazi party had not adopted an Antisemitic policy until immediately before WWII, would it no longer be appropriate to put a Holocaust template on the Nazi Party page? Please, 1913, the young Turks do not have to completely parallel the Nazi party in order to be designated a responsible party (even though in many cases they do). The Myotis 00:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It is hard to decipher the argument here. To claim Young Turks as a genocidal group, the motivation has to be established. The motivation ("antisemitism") for "Nazi party" and its organizations ("Racial policy of Nazi Germany") are established policies even before the WWII beyond any doubt. It is just normal to use this party as a good comparative point. If you can prove that the equivalent structures had established in this group, I would lean toward accepting the idea that the same results could be generated. Why not use them as a model? What I'm saying is this; You can not designate a group of people as a "responsible party", if there is not a "Cohesive behavior" among them, or can not establish a "motivation" beyond any doubt. Besides (a) "handful of Armenians": These Armenians occupied key positions. It is not just a list of names. It proves that the fight was not between two ethnic groups. It was based on two conflicting goals (defending one's country against a separatist movement). (b) "Turanist/nationalist": It is not a crime to love your nation. You have to establish that the nationalism is based on "hate" towards the other ethnicities (Armenians). (3) completely parallel: If you are claiming a "state based genocide" you need to come up with a functional model which the ideology in question can establish itself and find a way to channel its motivation as a behavior against other nation. These arguments are not established. My point is this; Someone can come and create an Armenian Terrorist template with a list of assassin Armenians and locate it under the page of "Armenia". I would disagree with that template, as much as I disagree with this template. It is not enough to brought one highly questionable statement "that is not even established in the article" from Armenian authors to "justify adding a template." That is defamation. That is what is happening right at this moment. Born1913 01:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes yes, the 'backstabbing Armenians' were rebelling against their 'benevolent Turkish masters' and so deserved extermination. I have heard such dogma before, but I was hoping that the discussion would not pulled down to the level of throwing around pseudohistory. Humor me and pretend that there is no real dispute that the Armenian Genocide was a state-sponsored eradication campaign (which it was, and if you believe otherwise, I suggest you instead go the the Armenian Genocide article). My argument is based on three relatively accepted facts, if you have reason to challenge them do so.

1. The Armenian Genocide was planned and conducted by the Three Pasha Triumvirate, Talat in particular. B. The Three Pashas were Turanists, who believed that Armenians could not coexist with Turks in Anatolia. C. The Three Pashas were leaders of the Young Turk party in what was known as the Young Turk government. As such, they represent the responsible party and their behavior was certainly cohesive. Thus, the Young Turks were responsible for the Armenian Genocide.

Your metaphor with Armenia and the Assassins is highly incongruous, The Young Turks were a party and a movement, not a country. A closer parallel would be putting the AG template on the 'Turkey' page, which certainly would be inappropriate. The Myotis 11:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

There are arguments which you need to consider (1) You said "Young Turks were a party"; this is not historically correct. List of parties in the Ottoman Empire gives the list of parties. The Young Turks as the name implies, are "young", lively, bold, wished to modernize the Ottoman Empire, which was also called as "TURKEY." They were members of many parties. (2) You said "backstabbing Armenians' were rebelling against" This is correct; There were around 600,000 not-backstabbing (your term) Armenians were living in the Anatolia after the war. The deportations target a specific group, which the leaders of this group before the WWI at "Armenian National Congress at Erzurum" declared that they would side with Russian Army, because they believed the (which Turned out that it was a false) promise given to the Armenians in the Russian Empire that they will have their free state in the region after the war. It think the Armenian leaders who pushed their population into this situation should perform a self critique (reflection) about their own responsibility. Building a nation, through a civil war, is a bloody process. It is double faced to be proud of Democratic Republic of Armenia (there were two other non recognized Armenian states) and blame the others for the sacrifices given for this goal. (1) You said "The Three Pashas"" If you read your response (also all the Armenian Genocide books) the famous "Three Pashas" are blamed. I'm not defending the argument that you can not locate a genocide on the "The Three Pashas" page. I'm defending Three Pashas is among Young Turks BUT Young Turks is not "The Three Pashas." These two words do not have the same meaning or can be inter-replaceable. If you can not prove the link between the rest of the "young turks" and genocide, as you build with the "Three Pashas"; The argument that "young turks are responsible party" is ***defamation****. That is what I'm arguing with you. I'm not Arguing "Three Pashas" or "Armenian Genocide." --Born1913 15:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Whether the Young Turks were a party or a party coalition, is not the point, they were a distinct group and they made up the young Turk Government. That is simply what the administration that carried out these acts was called. And the 'specific group' you speak of included not just 'rebels' but all Armenians. Unless you think that scholars, priests, teachers, the elderly, women, children under the age of 13, and newborn babies all are capable (and so deserve the death penalty for) 'rebelling'. While I have seen no evidence that 'The Armenians' declared they would side with Russia, and even assuming that was true, it would not justify a fraction of what was done. To say that the Young Turks were directly responsible is hardly defamation, any more than to say that the Nanking Massacre was executed under Hirohito's Imperial Japan, that the Republika Srpska was responsible for the Srebrenica massacre. These were the Governments that such war crimes occurred under, and so they were responsible. Unless you can convince me that the Three Pashas were not Young Turks, and that their administration was not a Young Turk administration, then you cannot expect me to believe the association is 'defamation'. The Myotis 00:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Things that are not point for you, "party or movement", generates huge difference on organizational behavior. You need an organization, to assign responsibility. The problem with Armenian historical reconstruction of the period, to fit to a specific ideology of genocide, is over simplification through elimination of the differences given the complexity of the period which involved a "REVOLUTION". It seems there are things you need to learn about the period in question, but I'm not your teacher. However, it is disturbing that after 100 years of the event. Also the recent Karabag issue. The difference between the 'rebels' and all Armenians (civilians) is not differentiated in Armenian rhetoric. That is the basic fact behind the doom of the Armenian society between 1915-1917. A group of Armenian leaders (ARF, Armenak, ...) so called nationals (generally rich Armenians, who had the luxury to be educated in Europe) effected with the epic stories of Revolution, Freedom, and Nation. (Armenian nationalism) pushed the region into a chaos. It is like IRAQ after 2003. Everyone has a "elderly, women, children under the age of 13, and newborn babies" story during that time. Like wise in IRAQ. As I told you, it is you that has to prove that a group is a genocidal group. ***The proof is the burden of the claim maker.*** Also the difference between civilian and Ֆէտայի is something you have to make peace with your own position. Born1913 (talk) 02:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The creation of the Young Turk movement

Dear All,

I would like to bring your attention to some points missed in the article, points that are crucial in understanding the logics of the events. Below are the points clearly lacking:

1) Who and when and why created the Young Turk movement? Whose initiative was to start and run it?

Here, in my opinion, the reason for such an organization would be to shake and bring the Empire to the end. It is noted in the article that YT was a secret organization... That alone does not explain anything. Facts, please, about the creation of the organization.

2) The puspose of the Young Turks.

As I mentioned, a reason would be to bring the Empire to the end. For any activities, such as propaganda, revolution, etc an organization needs an enormous material resource, and intelligence. In this respect, who was the support of the Young Turks? This point is particularly important, since for making an entire empire collapse one needs resources comparable to that of the Empire itself. Did Young Turks have a STATE support? If yes, of which state?

3) Who were the leaders of the Young Turks, meaning not just their names but the activities they were involved in before the start of the YT movement, and more general background about them. For instance, their ethnic background.

In conclusion, what is a SECRET DIPLOMACY mentioned in the article? Are there any facts and documents perhaps about Young Turks' secret diplomacy or this is just author's vision?

Thanks, Vahan Senekerimyan

128.200.19.228 19:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"Here, in my opinion, the reason for such an organization would be to shake and bring the Empire to the end"

that is quite wrong. The Young Turks were created by the reforms of Abdul Hamid and they took over because they felt that they could do a better job of maintaining the Empire than the Sultan could. The Empire was destroyed only when the Young Turks joined WW1. But if their plan was to abolish the empire then why wait that long? And did Nicholas the II, because he also joined WW1, secretly plan to destroy the Russian Empire ?

Well, in which way the Young Turks tried to preserve the Empire better than the Sultan did? By definition Empire is a multinational entity whereas the Young Turks were centered on Pan-Turanism and nationalism. As a result of their policies ethnic conflicts started in the Empire and as such massacres and deportations of the national minorities (see the Armenian case for instance). If you mean they wanted to keep the territories of the Ottomans I might agree, however it seems silly trying to keep the multinational country introducing the ideas of national dominance of a single nation within the Empire.

Vahan Senekerimyan 08:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

"Young Turk"

The statement "The term's association with the Armenian genocide, as details of the massacres eventually surfaced, has caused it to fall out of favor." was suppressed by an anonymous contributor with the edit summary "there is no evidence of this statement being true, or of the term young turks having been dropped of [sic] favour. This is merely a loaded sentence, and is slanderously false." --Wetman 16:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

New Zealand

New Zealand had a group of parliamentarians known as "Young Turks". One became Prime Minister. Robin Patterson 06:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

And Menzies_Campbell the geriatric-looking ex-leader of the British Liberal Democrats recently said much of liking being surrounded by "Young Turks" and of once being a "Young Turk" himself. Within a month, those "Young Turks" got rid of him. Served him right - clearly his understanding of history was as feeble as his understanding of leadership. Meowy 13:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Rod Stewart

I looked at the lyrics to the Rod Stewart song mentioned in the trivia section, and in no way does it even implicitly mention terrorism, never mind support a specific terrorist group. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.40.124.16 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 22 October 2006.

Thanks, I've removed the section. —Khoikhoi 23:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Young Turk???

I always thought Young Turks where the people who initiated the movement, not the movement itself. Moreover what is this Young Turk without the "s"? Cosika 02:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the "S". The movement itself also is an evolution of Tanzimat. --Oguz1 22:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

The role of the Young Turks in orchestrating the Armenian Genocide is notable but not mentioned other than in the introduction which states:

Young Turks were responsible for orchestrating the Armenian Genocide. This is disputed by most Turkish historians, along with a minority of Western historians.

Firstly, this is probably worthy of a section in the article. I would be willing to write that (complete with more references than you can poke a stick at). Secondly, it is probably relevant to the above quote regarding Turkish historians that it is infact illegal to affirm the Armenian genocide in Turkey (see Article 301 (Turkish penal code)). Just in the interest of "balance".

CUP

Committee of Union and Progress is repeatedly called "jihadist" in its article. --HanzoHattori 08:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Introduction and name in other languages

Can somebody please provide the transliteration or pronunciation guide of some kind for the Arabic. I for one cannot read Arabic and many others cannot. It would be appreciated if any Arabic speaker could do this, thanks. Evlekis 13:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Actual origin of the phrase "Young Turks"

Has it any origin in Turkey at all? It may be used there today, but was it used there a century ago? Is it actually from western Europe, late 19th century hack-journalism shorthand or something similar? Like for example the word Jugendstil, "Youth style", the German equivalent of Art Nouveau. Meowy 01:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)