Talk:Bob Lazar

• Archive 1 - ended 2006

Media coverage

These are a list of articles that may be of use as future references or just may simply be of interest to those who want some more information on Bob Lazar (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 12:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• Ayscough, Suzan (June 11, 1993). "New Line nabs gov't UFO scientist pic". Variety (magazine). Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Zarlengo, Kristina (September 27, 1998). "Waking Up To Dreamland". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Mateja, Jim (September 11, 2004). "Hydrogen fuel-cell cars face bumps in the road". The San Diego Union-Tribune. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Pilkington, Mark (May 12, 2005). "Back to the saucers". Guardian Unlimited. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Carroll, Jon (June 2, 2006). "Jon Carroll". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Davidson, Keay (November 28, 2006). "Ex-spy's poison on the Internet". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Kindel, George (December 02, 2006). "'I Bought Nuke Poison, And You Can Too!'". Fox News. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

• Jahn, George (December 6, 2006). "Spy's Death Spotlights Radiation Risks". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Stringer, David (December 8, 2006). "London Bar Focus of Ex-Spy Death Probe". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2007-05-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Paranormal Researcher

The 'paranormal researcher' tag is an inappropriate classification tag for this subject. Encyclopedic topics remain best as such, without compartmentalizing them. Linking to related topics is fine. I'm for removing the tag. DeltaT 18:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• I replaced the paranormal researcher infobox with a more neutral biography infobox. I used the opporunity to post a better copyrighted picture (tv show still), and colour instead of black&white. DeltaT 00:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Area 19

Why does Area 19 redirect to here? I can't find any references to "Area 19" in the article. I saw that name somewhere and was trying to find out what it is or isn't claimed to be.

Purely guessing: "Area 19" might be the approximate location of Lazar's "S-4" according to old AEC zoning, the same zoning that produced "Area 51". (Renyseneb 19:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

How bout Area 52?--71.185.193.98 23:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Random assertions

I just deleted the line about him pandering for prostitution and going bankrupt as it just seems to be spuriously tagged on the end of the intro, with no references.

It is not hard to find references for both claims. A quick Google search brought up [1] and this page mentions both claims with references to newspaper articles and court documents. Nonetheless, I am not reverting your edit since his pandering charge and bankruptcy are completely out of place in the intro (and perhaps should not be included in the article). Phiwum 14:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I put it back in. They are addressed later and this is an article about Lazar not just his UFO claims. It also shows the past, which indictes fianacial and credibility issues.

I respectfully disagree with your edit and have removed it from the intro again. Maybe the fact that he has run several companies is part of his notability and should be mentioned in the intro, but I'm not so sure. The bankruptcy and pandering charge are certainly not appropriate for the introduction. These are not central enough to fit into a small summary of Lazar, which is the point of the intro. I doubt that visiting prostitutes is relevant in any case. Paying for sex is not an indication of "credibility issues". But if this information should go anywhere in the article, let's choose a more appropriate place than the intro. See also Privacy presumption, although I don't know if Lazar counts as a "public figure". I doubt it. (Also, please sign your comments with four tildes.) Phiwum 15:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and if the material does come back into the article body, then cite some sources! Phiwum 15:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the line. I have therefore reserved the right to omit the following paragraph, because
a) it is of insufficient biographical importance,
b) it is depreciative to the subject of the article:

On June 18, 1990, Lazar was convicted in Las Vegas, Nevada of pandering for an illegal prostitute, a felony. A friend of Lazar's, Gene Huff, explained that this occurred because, in a televised interview with George Knapp, Lazar had admitted developing a computerized system to increase the efficiency of the brothel.

DeltaT 20:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

More neutral & fair approach

I have edited the article with regard to the following:

• Longer intro explaining why Lazar is controversial.
• More balance in text length between claims and criticism, each now presenting six paragraphs.
• Omission of the following part, which I think is of insufficient biographical importance to the article:

  In 1995, Gene Huff, a friend of Lazar's, wrote: "At area 51, Bob had to sign a secrecy agreement and an agreement to waive his constitutional rights." Mr. Huff continued: "The clearance he was now attaining would require perpetual monitoring of his activities and would never simply be attained and forgotten about until the next review date. After some abrupt suggestions that he honor his secrecy agreement and watch his general conduct, he and Mariani boarded a bus with blacked out windows and took a 20 to 30 minute ride down a bumpy dirt/gravel road. They arrived at a base near Papoose dry lake bed known as S4."

• Omission of subjective, ill-referenced or unfounded text fragments such as:

  *"Opinions are divided as to the reliability of Lazar's claims. Some say Lazar's story could be true; they argue that his testimony should be taken seriously and that he is the victim of a cover up by the US government. Critics argue that Lazar has made unsupported statements, has a weak grasp of the scientific principles he espouses, or has produced an elaborate hoax."

  *"These areas, according to Lazar, are inhabited by the adventurous (but to date comparatively reclusive) extraterrestrial visitors who could employ it."

  *"In interviews and public appearances he appears to be well-versed in physics — at least to a non-scientific audience."

  *"(...)but there has yet to be a single alumnus of either MIT or Caltech that has backed Lazar's claims by remembering a class taken with Lazar, or having ever seen him at either campus."

• Reserved the right to omit the following paragraph, because
  a) it is of insufficient biographical importance,
  b) it is depreciative to the subject of the article:

  On June 18, 1990, Lazar was convicted in Las Vegas, Nevada of pandering for an illegal prostitute, a felony. A friend of Lazar's, Gene Huff, explained that this occurred because, in a televised interview with George Knapp, Lazar had admitted developing a computerized system to increase the efficiency of the brothel.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DeltaT (talk • contribs) 03:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

DeltaT 03:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

As of November 2006, another product available through the United Nuclear website is the radioactive isotope Polonium-210, made famous through the death of Alexander Litvinenko. However, United Nuclear is not suspected of any involvement in the case. Its web site currently has a notice aiming to deflect criticism, noting that "You would need about 15,000 of our Polonium-210 needle sources at a total cost of about $1 million - to have a toxic amount" and that "Although it obviously works, Polonium-210 is a poor choice for a poison."

(omitted for insufficient biographical importance) -- DeltaT 20:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Edward Teller

Omitted the part

"It should be noted that Dr. Teller was approached on several occasions to confirm this fact before his passing, only to reply by stating that he could not discuss such things, and would neither confirm nor deny this fact."

for non-existent reference. DeltaT 16:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Further Reading

I added a whole bunch of articles that talk about him, maybe somebody may want to use those articles as references within this article? (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 15:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Nima, I don't see how articles about Litvinenko's death are of sufficient relevance to Lazar's biography. We can't be adding all possible references on the web about Lazar to a Wikipedia article. Although I applaud your effort to expand this article with a further reading section, I have removed your list for that reason. [[DeltaT 23:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)]]

• you do not simply remove further reading articles, leave them in because they do talk about lazar and may be of interest, that is why its Further Reading (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 23:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I liked the list Nima added. Even if these articles/pages don't focus on Lazar exclusively, they made for interesting reading and give further insights into the man. I think they should be kept. But if they aren't for whatever reason, they should be worked into the article as references, where applicable. --Careax 02:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion: The links are all to reliable sources per WP:RS, and provide information that the Wikipedia article could never provide - extensive commentary from different points of view. Listing a multitude makes sure the reader is not led to a conclusion, so the links are not violating NPOV either. I see no reason not to include them per WP:EL. A formatting note, it should be made a subsection of "External links", and could perhaps be renamed to "Media coverage" or something like that. --User:Krator (t c) 17:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an online news agency. Are we to do the same to other Wiki articles then? Provide information on every name in every Wikipedia article when it pops up in some news article? This is beyond the scope of an encyclopedia. The references to this article suffice, imho. Further reading could possibly contain a bibliography with books in which Lazar is mentioned. DeltaT 19:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• is there a rule against this? (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 03:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

There's no rule against it, but it may be cumbersome to add news links to Wikipedia articles. After all, such a list couldn't be exhaustive and might therefore be considered an arbitrary selection. It's also contradictory with the timeless nature of an encyclopedia -- after all, the list you propose will be outdated in the future and you can't simply add every single news article in which Lazar's name pops up. DeltaT 21:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Nima, could you provide me with examples of other Wikipedia articles where such 'further reading' is added to the already provided External Links section? Thanks, DeltaT 23:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• I have found articles with Further links separated from external links, but not combined probably ask on wikipedia main help page (some people probably know of some over there) (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 03:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• how about this, i moved the links to the discussion page instead so people can access them here until they decide to use them as references or are just curious to read them (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 12:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

In the end, what you propose is a good solution. DeltaT 21:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Nima, why don't you present it in the same form as with Philip Corso's article? Best in a chronological order. 81.245.211.172 08:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)DeltaT 08:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• sounds good (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 12:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Nima, please repost your list in a chronological order. Older news items first. Thanks, DeltaT 02:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Alien intervention

I have removed the chapter Alien intervention with the human race for 10,000 years. This part of Lazar's story is already summarily mentioned in the Testimony section. It doesn't need a new chapter. Readers can consult more on this topic by following the given reference. DeltaT 18:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Every other day, somebody repastes this section under the article: Alien intervention with the human race for 10,000 years
(History). This time it was user Zondor. DeltaT 01:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Department of Naval Intelligence

Hi, all. I'm new to this page. I've done a few edits here and there on Wikipedia, but I've just now started an account. I wanted to get some discussion going about the Department of Naval Intelligence. A few weeks ago, I posted the following in the criticism section:

"Lazar's supposed employer, the United States Department of Naval Intelligence does not and has never existed. The real entity is called the Office of Naval Intelligence. This fact suggests that Lazar's W2 and ID card are forgeries."

At the time, my assertion was challenged, labeled vandalism, and removed. After providing some evidence, it was reposted with an edit that I did not personally agree with but was willing to accept. The edit looked like this:

"Lazar's supposed employer, the United States Department of Naval Intelligence is not listed on the Office of Naval Intelligence website." This throws the point I am trying to make into doubt--it removes the neutrality I intended.

Now, it is missing entirely from the page and the criticism section has been changed into "Arguments Pro and Con." Also, the picture of Lazar's entry badge has disappeared.

I feel that I am being short-changed on a simple and valid point. Simply put, the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) does exist and the Department of Naval Intelligence does not exist. The Office of Naval Intelligence, the US Navy's intelligence arm, was established in 1882. During World War II, it was briefly called the Department of Naval Intelligence, but it remained the ONI on all of its official literature. Since the war, it has only been known as the ONI.

Maybe I seem like a skeptic, but I want to make sure that the information provided on this website is accurate and helpful to all who may use it. As I mentioned above, I'm new to editing on Wikipedia, but I came across a fact that appears to be wrong. We all have the right to edit and that is the beauty of this medium. I just don't think it's right to stifle legitimate, factual information.

The badge was revoked because its origin is uncertain. The W2-slip mentions the Department of Naval Intelligence as an employer. This could be due to an old-fashioned ONI clerk, eg., as the slip is apparently typed by hand. This is not an argument against Lazar's credibility. The slip has been studied by accredited reporter George Knapp for its validity. Who, by the way, also performed a succesful lie detector test on mr. Lazar and has found multiple witnesses corroborating Lazar worked at Los Alamos. DeltaT 01:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It is suggested that the Department of Naval Intelligence is a front for the Office of Naval Intelligence. In this type of covert government work, it can be expected that this would be the case. Author Bob Oechsler traced the slip through the IRS, and according to Bob Lazar, this lead back to the Navy. See Bob Lazar at "The Ultimate UFO Seminar", Transcript from Conference Held at Little A-Le-Inn, Rachel, Nevada, May 1, 1993. DeltaT 02:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Crap loads of...

I've removed the line "Crap loads of" from the line "Crap loads of scientific skepticism" as it's either subtle vandalism or just bad WP writing skill. 97.82.247.200 19:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Credentials For and Against

There is currently a section of the article with this very strange title. What the heck is it supposed to mean? What is the point of the section? It appears to present a few arguments supporting Lazar's credibility or claims and a few opposing, so it's more or less a "Criticisms and Rebuttals" section (well, not quite, since some arguments are clearly "pro" rather than mere rebuttals).

In any case, the current title is pretty odd. What meaning of "credential" is used here? Phiwum 15:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmmm

Could he be Disinformation or Misinformation in some nefarious scheme? --71.185.193.98 00:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

My criticism of Delta T's Reverts

I made a number of changes to this article when I was not signed in and I regret that I did this and also that I did not further explain my changes, nevertheless DT's reverts do not make a lot of sense to me. Basically my changes consisted of putting language in the description of Lazar's claims to make it abundantly clear that his claims were just that, claims, and not proven fact. Also I put in a statement about Lazar's W-2 that indicated that most likely he was not doing scientific work for the Navy due to his low pay. When I have more time, I intend to put these changes back and perhaps DT and I can reach an agreement on what is a more acceptible article, as I do not feel that the article at present is.Chattanoogan (talk) 20:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)