Talk:Cheerleading

Cheerleading also catches links from Cheerleader, so if anyone's editing this page, they can include information about the actual people who cheerlead.

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Archive through 24 September 2007

Sport & POV

According to the Wikipedia article on Sport, Cheer qualifies. What we DO NOT need is a threatening comment in the article. This has the same effect as trolling (and attracts trolls). Yes, there is controversy about the sport-status of cheer. By and large, it is considered a sport, as referenced, and as per Wiki's own definitions. Think about it, too; Poker is now on ESPN...

I archived the extremely long talk page.

That's enough WikiDragoning and Being Bold for me for now.

VigilancePrime 16:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"...most quintessential of American sports"?

Now come on... I agree that Cheer is a sport. I (assistant) coached Cheer. Cheer is great. But much of this article sounds like it was written by a middle school squad through text messages. This page has a lot of good information, but needs a total rewrite to remove POV, better arrange reference locations (referencing paragraphs instead of words), and I don't think the photos are quite right either. While the VAST majority of Cheerers are from schools, only one photo is arguably a school cheer team (and the photo info says nothing about that).

This article is good, don't get me wrong, but needs a huge overhaul and, at a very start, toning down the POV-like statements.

VigilancePrime 18:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I reverted an edit that italicized the word "sport." It is edits like this that make Cheerleaders and Cheer supporters look childish and un-sport-like. It gives a "whiney" appearance to Cheerers and Cheer itself. It reinforces the stereotype. That's the same reason I took out the threatening commented-out notation of "DO NOT CHANGE FROM 'SPORT' as proper citation which meets WP:RS has been provided. Violations will be considered deliberate vandalism."

In order for others to take Cheer seriously and professionally, we - everyone and anyone pushing for it to be taken seriously and professionally - must act serious and professional. Threats, extreme-POV, POV-pushing, and all the like do not help the cause, they hurt it instead. It's just like any other stereotype about race, gender, region, accent, etc. If you act like the stereotype, you justify it in the minds of people who see you doing it. The only way to effectively combat a stereotype is to prove it wrong in action; words do not work.

I'm not trying to be on a soapbox here, but please take to heart these words so we can make this article better, more informative, and more professional in look, phrasing, and tone. VigilancePrime 02:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it again. Please stop. If you're a proponent of Cheer, you're hurting the cause you support. If you're a vandal, I'll mark you as such. Either way, please stop. VigilancePrime 21:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

"...most quintessential of American sports" is a DIRECT QUOTE used in the correct context from the cited Newsweek Source [6]. I have copy edited the sentence in a manner that hopefully expresses WP:NPOV better, while still maintaining the main idea of the article that this is take from. MsDivagin 03:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

That's much better. If we're quoting (especially an opinion or a subjective observation/assessment), we need to indicate so, and you did that perfectly. That's much better now and I/we thank you. VigilancePrime 21:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent edit by 75.137.121.165: "Cheerleading is now officially considered a sport."

By whom? The status is hotly contested and a statement like this requires a credible 'official' reference. Also that sentence, if backed up, was ill-placed ruining the accuracy and flow of the history section. Cheerleading definitely wasn't a sport at its beginnings in the 19th Century and only began approaching becoming one in the last few decades.Thinkbui 00:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

cheerleading isn't in the Olympics thus it anti a sport. Since wiki is international it would have to be considered a sport by more than americans —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.111.9 (talk) 19:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

That's an incredibly weak argument. For starters, one sport that isn't an Olympic sport is American football. Secondly, it's not just in the U.S. that people consider cheerleading a sport. Take the U.K. for example.Thinkbui 09:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I think most people in the UK would scoff at the idea of cheerleading as a sport. Goldbringer (talk) 00:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Photos

First of all, to MsDivagin, I wanted to explain why I swapped the images (and if you disagree, let me know and we can work this; it's minor difference): Seeing as how youth cheer presents the vast number of cheerleaders (and skews the gender statistics depending on the 18-year-old line... 50%-ish of cheerers above and 98%-ish below being female IIRC), I felt that the lead photo would best be of a youth-aged group. Whether from a school, public organization's cheer group (as that image is), Pop Warner, etc., makes less of a difference. The intent in moving the college photo to the schools section was so that eventually that section could be further subdivided into a MS, HS, College section set and that photo used as the prime example of college. I'm moving them back with that reasoning in mind, and because, as a side note, I feel that the general first thought when one hears "Cheerleading" is of high school and that age-era rather than college and professional (which is only arguably cheer sometimes and places). [Side note, I think your work and edits are great! Don't think anything else of my comments or edits! You are a great, great help/contributor to this page and I/we thank you!!!]

On a wholly separate note, the TO-DO list for this page mentions photos. Are we serious editors (of vandal opinions I/we am/are not concerned) wanting more photos, better photos, or specific photos? If the latter of the three, specifically what do we want? I have a couple and have worked recently at Wiki on getting/producing photos (see my talk page for examples). With perhaps better discussions (and hence this section on this talk page) we can get those things accomplished and drastically upgrade this article!

VigilancePrime 05:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Thanks for the compliment, cheerleading is my job, my love, my life and my passion...

2. I am a cheerleading industry insider...coached youth rec. league, high school, and allstars; judge nationally; teams competed at worlds and final destination-won there 4 times; am personally acquainted with the people and teams you see on ESPN and in American Cheerleader (some of them are on my speed dial!) So the perception of cheerleading as a whole is very important to me. But, as a Wikipedian, I do want to present a fair, accurate and unbiased portrayal of the topic.

3. The reason that I switched the photos is the way cheerleading as a whole is being represented in the Youth Cheer photo. Although the image of young girls with pom pons in hand cheering on there team is what may pop in to the general public's mind when thinking of cheerleading (the stereotype), in the current cheer world as a whole, it is far from the reality. The reality of cheerleading is that with more than 1.8 million all star cheerleaders out of a an estimated 3.8 million cheerleaders world wide, they are currently the largest segment of cheerleading and also the fastest growing in terms of number of participants worldwide. With the inclusion of extreme stunts and tosses, elite level tumbling skills and precision dancing all common place now, competitive cheerleadings' athleticism is the new face of cheerleading, and the driving force behind its gradual recognition as a sport. This athleticism has in turn trickled down to the sidelines of your local school or youth league. It is now common place to see some of these same stunts, tosses and tumbling on the sidelines at your local football game. I feel that the first image on the page needs to appropriately reflect this level of skill and athleticism, the age & type of team being show really don't matter as much to me. I don't want the first image that someone sees, who may have no background information on cheerleading at all, to reinforce the stereotype that the cheerleading community has fought so hard to separate itself from.
(In short...give me a lead-off picture of a bunch of girls showing athleticism i.e. stunting, tossing or tumbling and I'm there!) MsDivagin 00:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree! What we need is a good photo of youth cheerleaders in a formation or in action stunting. Something more than a cellphone camera or a Kodak disposable. A nice photo of youth cheerleaders in motion. I don't think the one necessarily reinforces negative aspects of cheer stereotypes, but I understand how a better, more active photo would be preferred. I don't have nearly the background or impetus to the be involved in the subject, but was put into the interest far more subtly. Anyway, the whole article has a long developmental road ahead of it as it stands now. VigilancePrime 01:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Popular Culture

why no mention of the cheerleader from Heroes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.111.9 (talk) 19:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. Season 1 of Heroes was heavily billed under the tagline "Save the cheerleader, save the world," but the show really isn't about her being a cheerleader and more about her being one of a hand full having special powers and her background only happens to include cheerleading. At the same time, you could make the argument that because of that popular tagline and the identification of her being a cheerleader makes her worthy of a mention.Thinkbui 09:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bringitonmovieposter.jpg

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BetacommandBot 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Cheerleading vs. Stripping

What about "sexiness" in cheerleading? At the very least in popular culture, but also in general the amount of clothing, and the type of moves, have become more sexually suggestive. Haven't they? See: The Replacements (film) --Dwarf Kirlston 16:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

As we all (hopefully) know, TV is not reality. Not by a long shot.

NFHS has very specific rules about cheerleading clothing and how much skin is and is not allowed. No strippers in high school cheer. While All-Star programs are generally free to do what they wish, they still must have a program in which parents willingly let their children participate.

Colleges have rules but also more freedom, but comparing even college cheerers to strippers I think is highly argumentative and (intentionally?) inflammatory.

Now whether or not "professional" cheerleaders really even qualify as cheerleading is up for debate anyway. I don't think a comparison of "pro cheer" to strippers is warranted either even if you do consider pro sport sideline and dance teams to be cheerleaders.

But please don't compare real-life cheer to movies... especially something like that (whereas the Bring it On movies are at least somewhat realistic...somewhat).

VigilancePrime 19:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

TV and Reality are different articles, that is a fact.

pro sport sideline and dance teams - is there a wikipedia article on those? There should at least be a link to them.--Dwarf Kirlston 20:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

let me quote: "The cheerleaders release an annual swimsuit calendar." - from NFL Cheerleading - seems that the two, Cheerleading and "Sensual Dancing" are somewhat related, that some sexualization of cheerleading has happened - right?
I tried to find a mention of pro dance teams but was unable to. Could someone help me?
What about cheerleading in NBA? I found no mention of it in the NBA article
--Kiyarrllston 01:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

NFL Cheerleading

Regarding GMSbabe73's addition concerning the New England Colts cheerleading, I can not find any reference material that says the Colts program was ever located in New England, so I've commented the addition out. If it is true and you have a source to verify it, please add the reference.Thinkbui 23:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Found something. Baltimore Colts, not NE Colts.Thinkbui 23:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Cheerleading World Championships

Is this a big event? There is no mention about this competition in the article. -Lapinmies 14:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)