Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests

Archives
1	2	3	4	5	6
7	8	9	10	11	12
13	14	15	16	17	18
19	20	21	22	23	24

Reply to Rschen7754's comment

Statement by Rschen7754

NE2 has refused to follow consensus several times, leading to the exhausting of the patience of the U.S. Roads WikiProject. With the current issue at hand, the inclusion of auto trails and city streets within the scope of USRD, NE2 has gone against the consensus (of six editors) and has reverted mainspace[1] and project pages[2] several times. In fact, he said he is willing to ignore consensus[3]. In the Mediation Cabal started shortly thereafter, he declined mediation, fearing that it would lead to concerns about his conduct here. However, this conduct is nothing new. Three previous RFCs have been filed in regards to similar matters. In fact, with the last mediation (being carried out at WT:HWY), even though the consensus was against him, many users just gave up because they were tired of fighting. And yes, this does remind me of the WP:RFAR/HWY case, where SPUI held a similar attitude (section 7.2.3), and of the subsequent end to SRNC with a refusal to listen to consensus.

In your above comment, you said that NE2 went against the consensus of six editors. Can you tell me the names of those six editors? AL2TB Gab or Tab 04:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

See WT:USRD. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I need a clerk

Please can a clerk check this two edits: [4] and [5]? I don't know why someone changed "Comment" to "Commentbeh" and deleted the word "uninvolved". Also, the "John Gohde" case should have the name "John Gohde 2" because this is the second case about John Gohde and in the Thomas Basboil case, please add the name of "party 2". --Kaypoh (talk) 12:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not as experienced here as you Kaypoh, and I didn't realise I could ask for a clerk, but I was worried by [6] too, myself...because with the Statements undefined like that it changes the meaning of some comments, more than you might think, and confuses things. Though I am pretty sure this [7] changing "Comment" to "Commentbeh" was probably a typo from adding a comment under yours. --Zeraeph (talk) 12:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Thatcher (formerly User:Thatcher131) who did one of those edits is a clerk. See Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Clerks. There is currently no link to the clerks page from WP:ARBCOM, though there is in the red box at WP:RFARB. There should probably be a link at the top of this page. The clerks page should also make clear when it is better to contact arbitrators directly (in this case, this is the role of clerks). Carcharoth (talk) 13:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

"Commentbeh" looks like an accident. I cleaned up the section headers because really, once you get to headers like "Statement by very-slightly-involved-in-the-past-on-the-periphery" you are dealing with window dressing for its own sake. The clerks will generally look at the content of the statement and the involved parties list when opening the case to decide whether to place statements on the main or talk page, but ultimately "involvement" is determined by the Arbitrators after reviewing the evidence. The clerk page is linked in both the red "How to" box and at the bottom of the template listing active cases. Thanks for the reminder about John Ghode. Thatcher 14:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Question of community authority

Arbitrators and others may wish to comment at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Article probation. Jehochman ^Talk 15:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration

I would like to request an arbitration for the article Teofilo Ora. I can't paste the template in the arbitration page. thanks.Kapatidsadiyos (talk) 07:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please read through the Dispute resolution process. Arbitration does not hear content disputes or make rulings on proper article content. Arbitration deals mainly with serious user conduct problems that have not been resolved after good faith attempts at dispute resolution. You need to start by discussing your concerns on the article's talk page. If this does not help, try a Request for Comment or Third opinion, as described in the Dispute Resolution Process document. As far as your technical problem is concerned, the page is protected to prevent abuse by anonymous users; this method of protection also stops new accounts (less than 4 days old). Thatcher 14:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Rfar Request for Palestine-Israel conflict

Please feel free to add any informal comments here, if anyone wishes to do so. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

At this point, comments on the request for arbitration should be focused on whether the case should be accepted, that is, on whether it would be useful for the arbitration committee to consider the conduct of all involved parties and potentially issue remedies governing editing by the parties or editing of a particular article or series of articles. These comments should be placed in the relevant section of the main Requests for arbitration page. Unless I am missing something I don't see that it would be helpful to divide the discussion between the RfAr page and this talkpage. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. thanks for your comment. I understand. however, i thought that perhaps some informal discussion might be helpful, even in discussing the basic issue of whether to have this case in the first place. i thought about making a user page for these comments, but decided that this location is more neutral.

It is really not meant to anything partisan, but simply the usual opening for open discussion, the same as other pages around Wikipedia. hope that positively addresses your understandable and justifiable concerns. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm ... I haven't see things done this way before, but I guess it couldn't hurt to try, subject to what other arbitrators might think. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have a procedural question. Does it really matter who is named in the original RfArb? I think there are a lot of other people involved here, but they aren't named. Will that impact ArbCom's ability to consider their role, and warn or sanction as necessary? <eleland/talkedits> 20:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It is my understanding that the ArbCom will consider everyone's role in the dispute, even if they are not specifically named. If the ArbCom believes that they played an important part in the dispute, then they will move to add the specific user to the list of parties. Sean William @ 21:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I've jumped the gun, the Committee has not yet accepted this case. It would be nice to have confidence that the ArbCom would focus on those who have been disruptive. Judging by the participant list as of this morning, that is still not the case.

User:Mastcell has proposed a clerk keep some order on the various pages - it would be nice to think that such a person will deal with the mass of vindictive, reckless personal accusations invariably made in previous cases. We shall see. The chilling effect of this behavior has been very evident. On my previous visit to ArbCom, even my advocate was harassed - so much for any chance of due-process!

The other serious concern is that, judging by many previous such cases, there will be little concern for the truth of evidence. I don't say that a mass of lies gets entered, but we can have little confidence since, when this has happened, it appears not to be a cause for censure. Surely participation here should depend on personal integrity? You'd never guess it judging by some of what goes on! PR^talk 09:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Questions to Jaakobou

1. In your statement overleaf, you say "I also believe there is a serious need for formal mediation on Second Intifada and Israeli-Palestinian conflict". I've seen it suggested that you never agree to compromises (I cannot say, I think I once noticed you refusing to join an informal mediation at the Battle of Jenin). Please provide examples where you've done so, preferably in a new section. PR^talk 14:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
2. There was an RfC on CAMERA. Eventually (after a great deal of uncalled for participation by involved editors, into which I allowed myself to be sucked in, sorry), I summarised the conclusions as being two to none against CAMERA (or likely three to one, if we included someone who'd been only slightly involved, offering to mediate). You don't appear to have exactly rejected that conclusion (I cannot understand what you're trying to say here), but just one day later, you were encouraging other people to ignore the conclusion, eg here. I'm sure you'll understand that this could look very much like both tendentious editing (concealing the reasonably clear nature of the result at the RfC) and disruptive editing, encouraging disrespect for WP:Policy. Would you care to explain your understanding of the result of this RfC? PR^talk 14:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• It's hard to think that there will be any other result to this case (if accepted) than article probation, given ArbCom's past history with such disputes. I'm not sure analyzing everybody's behavior won't be a complete waste of time. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Given there's disruption from a hell of a lot of users in this case, article probations would look like the only feasible option (sanctioning indivdual editors would probably be far too complex for a volunteer project and unworkable). The problem is, the scope and severity of the article/topic probation.... Ryan Postlethwaite 19:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely with JPgordon. I am greatly disturbed by the tone which is already emerging here. Since no specific article is the focus here, editors are already piling on allegations and counter-allegations of various misconduct. this is sort of inevitable, since ArbCom does not address content disputes, and can only address user conduct.

I would suggest that a slightly better route might be to focus on disputed articles and on questionable editors individually, on a case by case basis. It is possible to start Arbcom cases for individual editors, as you may know. I truly don't have anyone particular in mind here. My only point is that if some here do feel that certain editors need attention, there are ways to do that, in a manner which would keep the focus much more steady, and would not result in a whole slew of counter-allegations to confuse the matter. By the way, this is no reflection on ArbCom itself; i think ArbCom actions can be of immense value and helpfulness, if they deal with specific articles and editors individually.

Going on this current route will only lead us into fuirther acrimony, and furthermore we may also find that nobody ends up with a useful resolution, because everybody is so involved in making allegations and counter-allegations. (copied and revised a comment which i also posted at main page.) --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• (Grumble grumble grumble) I would like to raise two concerns with article probation in general and jpgordon's statement in specific. First, article probation treats all affected editors equally, at least at first. While it may be difficult to determine whether or not some editors are at more fault than others, it seems like it is Arbcom's responsibility to at least try. Second, article probation shifts the responsibility of dealing with the matter from the 15 elected Arbitrators to individual admins. Either the participants will recruit admins whom they believe to be friendly to them (albeit uninvolved in the content dispute) to take action, or they will make general reports at WP:AE, which historically has attracted a very low level of admin involvement. I can tell you that the General sanctions and Editing restrictions put in place in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 have had limited success. The parties are each immovable in each's own conviction. They repeat the same arguments and disputes with no sign of listening to each other; their idea of compromise is that the other side acquiesce to the truth; and every slightest infraction reported to WP:AE results in a 5-page discourse on content questions that are far outside the remit of the board. Just my two cents of course. Thatcher 20:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, you make some excellent points. the truth is that if we had some dispute resolution group which had ArbCom's role and prominence which was willing to rule on content disputes, we might be able to resolve such problems much more easily. for example, the Armenia-Azerbajan dispute you mentioned would probably be much more resolvable if parties could get a clear resolution as to the content, instead of simply getting a ruling on their own conduct, which they can probably implement only to a limited degree. so I agree with what you say, and I agree that in the end, this also will rest again with how we resolve individual content, through processes like the one you mentioned using individual admins. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You're quite right, Thatcher. Part of the problem in this topic area is that admins have steered clear because they've found that intervening in editing disputes leads to a barrage of abuse and personal attacks from some of the participants. Mastcell, ^demon and I have all encountered this at various points, and I'm sure other admins have too. I believe a number of editors are consciously trying to intimidate admins into leaving them alone to do what they like. If we're to get this topic area under control, it's going to be necessary to take a tough line against the offending editors. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, part of the problem is that certain people use false claims of "neutrality" to put themselves in a position to try to affect content, and if they are administrators, they sometimes abuse their powers or get their administrator friends to do their dirty work for them. Then, when their abuses are pointed out, they themselves claim they are being abused and intimidated. If we're to get this topic area under control, it's going to be necessary to take a tough line against the offending editors/admins. 6SJ7 (talk) 15:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

• A content committee can only rule on general Wiki guideline issues, or else you have to become an expert on an issue. In this case of Israel/Palestine/and related issues, it would be best to have a permanent Process/Content Ombudsman Committee of volunteer long-time editors who have never edited on the issue and rotate them since over time they'll probably develop an opinion - or feel themselves pressured to do so - or be accused of having had one to start. T
• They also might have the power to start a check list of editors and every time they find an editor pulling a serious and intentional number (like deleting well sourced relevant content just cause they don't like it-one of biggest problems) they give them a black mark and over time those black mark's turn into escalating sanctions.
• Need more and perhaps formalized detective work like done by User:Timeshifter on organized pro-nationalist editing.
• There might be a general rule that anyone who does more than {__} edits on {__} articles on these topics within {__} time period should not be an administrator. It disgusts me that a couple of the worst offenders seem to be, though I know their powers are limited.
• This pro-nationalist infestation of Wikipedia has a negative effect on Wikipedia in general, demoralizing and driving away some editors who get smacked down when they dare to edit certain articles; making others more aggressive in going into more of these articles and getting involved in edit wars, just to prove that they can't be bullied into submission; and teaching some editors bad habits they bring to other articles and use on less experienced people to get their way.

Carol Moore 21:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)CarolMooreDC talk

Be careful what you wish for...

Well, it appears that this case is about to be deemed "accepted" and opened, with no restrictions on the scope of the case having been imposed by the committee. I think we are all about to get a big lesson on the Law of Unintended Consequences. 6SJ7 (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, 6SJ7, we can all use this as an opportunity for improving the status quo on these pages, rather than just perpetuating existing divisions. CJCurrie (talk) 04:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A laudable goal, CJCurrie. I will certainly be interested in reading your contributions to the evidence and workshop pages to watch you avoid perpetuation existing divisions. 6SJ7 (talk) 04:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You may not believe this, SJ, but I'm tired of the endless politicization that has dominated these articles and would very much like to see a better system come into being. While I don't believe historical (and ongoing) wrongs should be swept under the table entirely, I strongly believe that this arbitration will be most effective if it casts its gaze on the future rather than the past. CJCurrie (talk) 05:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

User:6SJ7 There is ample evidence of a few editors cheating. These editors have trashed consensus, they have committed acts of gross historical fabrication (judged against the standard of David Irving, several appear to be significantly worse), and some have engaged in hate-speech (again, several appear to be significantly worse than David Irving). Some have engaged in behavior contrary to the spirit of the project that should render their further contributions permanently tainted.

I listed the problems elsewhere as 1) illiterates who have hounded scholars out of the project. 2) straightforward cases of cheating (described above) and 3) personal attacks launched on witnesses at various "disciplinaries".

We will discover presently whether the ArbCom is willing (or indeed able) to deal with these problems. It can deal with cheats (usually), now it must deal with yahoos and yobs. PR^talk 21:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A little consensus building?

I will gladly restore any high quality freely licensed photograph on Palestinian or Israeli culture. Nonpolitical/uncontroversial subject matter, please.

With respect for the very deep divisions leading to arbitration, and the real world concerns behind them, I'll offer a good faith suggestion to do some collaborative work. The Palestinian costumes article came to my attention a few days ago. I'd be glad to help with images and copyediting if the people here would like to help raise that from B-class to GA. Best regards to all, Durova^Charge! 05:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)