Talk:Topal Osman

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WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Bias

this info is just a bunch of bias and prejudice. Firt of all, he joined the kemalist forces after world war 1 not 2, learn how to write romanl numbers. Secondly he was a true turkish officer that is awarded an independence medal,be more respectful Memoalper 13:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If you have any acceptable evidence, you may cite it and add to the article. The article already cites information from a Turkish national source, so it is assumedly not debated that he killed an officer and was hunted down by his own goverment. No document, other than the cited one, has records of him in the period before that. The WWI-WWII change was made by El Hombre de haha, and I probably should have caught it. Please do not remove references because you disagree with them, instead find new ones to add.The Myotis 14:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry but I had to revert. Zoryan Institute is scarcely a neutral or reliable source. Which Turkish national source? Dadrian isn't one, and Zoryan Institute definitely isn't, so which one? The fact that they claim to cite a TR source is also streaking on thin ice, is there such a link to the TR govt website? Baristarim 14:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The only source left, obviously. It states directly that Topal Osman killed a deputy and was, in turn killed by his own goverment. If you have credible sources on his history prior to then, please cite them. Otherwise, I will re-add Dadrian. I also might be able to find sources relating to the Pontian genocide. The Myotis 17:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to cite Dadrian and Zoryan, please attribute it correctly as is the usage with such controversial bios: "Dadrian claimed that X" or "According to the Zoryan Institute, Z was Y" - I am sorry but presenting their word as if it is the word of God and saying "he is infamously tied to the AG" is not correct. Nobody is saying remove the sources at this stage, but please include in who is making those claims. But, I am still not sure here, ZoryanInstitute or GreekNewsOnline are scarcely reliable or neutral third-party sources for claims as grave as these. I might simply revert altogether: Blaming a guy for two genocides on the words of GNE and ZI is a bit over the top, no? Baristarim 18:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have mentioned in my most recent edit that this is only what he has been reported of Topal, and that his responsibility for those events is disputed (I hope that is satisfactory). The Zoyan institute was only one of several sources that published the Dadrian article. I believe he has also been mentioned by Taner Akcam in one of his books, and I may cite that as well if I can find it. It is a pity that more information is not available. The Myotis 23:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Not quite.. The lead hasn't changed, and the disputed part comes at the very end. Dadrian, Zoryan Institute, doesn't matter: There needs to be more solid third-party and neutral sources before a guy can be blamed for two genocide, not even one!! Plus the issue of proper attribution also needs to be addressed. "infamously tied to the AG" in the lead is weasel as well. According to who? On what basis? Who considers him so "tied"? I had to revert again - the question is not Taner or someone else either: there needs to be actual third-party and clear sources on what the allegations are, and they need to be properly attributed, that's all. Baristarim 19:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

First off, I would consider Taner to be a neutral source, second, if you will search up on him, all English references directly relate to his role in one or the other Genocide. There are several PFDs that mention him in context (most which will not give you actual text unless you pay for it) such as [1], which mentions his role in the Greek -Turkic population exchange. This website [2] gives a neutral-source seminar that describes him as being the head of a death-squad in the AG. I think that his connection to these events is relatively well-established, and I have yet to find any similarly neutral information to challenge it. The Myotis 01:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Now you are being unreasonable, Bar, you asked for a neutral source and I gave you one. You asked me to state it neutrally and I did. I stated that he is connected and that his connection is debatable. Clearly many Greeks believe this and I can verify it, so what is wrong with mentioning it? Any article can mention what a person believes, as long as it is presented as just an opinion. And as you can see, the article says "Even heads of death squads such as the notorious ceteba?? Topal Osman are held in high respect in recent Turkey." So your label is taking it out of context, and a missing comma hardly disqualifies a (translated) source as being NPOV. And you have yet to give a single opposing source, even a biased one. And I can’t imagine why you got protection for an article with only two editors. Why you are going to such lengths to protect such a backwater article I cannot imagine, but I need you to explain your actions and your reasoning now. The Myotis 19:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The ones who object to each source reckoning acts perpetrated by Topal Osman must bring their own sources, which display the "heroic" deeds of Topal Osman. Behemoth 08:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

editprotected

"Ankaraduring" to "Ankara during" Deniz^T_C 12:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. —dgies^t_c 23:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Osman and the Armenian Genocide

I'm surprised that this article makes no mention of Osman's involvement in the Armenian Genocide. -- Aivazovsky 14:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

It did mention it, not to mention the Pontic greek one, but Baristarim started an edit war and requested protecion before leaving wikipedia. I haven't gotten around to re-adding it yet, but you will see it all in the edit logs.The Myotis 00:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Did Baris leave wikipedia? Myotis, please be reasonable and at least don't have things like 'infamously tied'. If one makes controversial/weird edits, than s/he should expect some opposition. The Greek news online website does not have any sources. The text is not actual news (which would be reliable), it is a historical text. So where did those informations come from, wikipedia, their guts? Please have better sources, this one is not reliable. Who knew that "On May 19, 1919, chief butcher Kemal himself disembarked at Samsous to begin organizing the final phase of the Pontian genocide. Assisted by his German advisers, and surrounded by his own band of killers -- monsters like Topal Osman, Refet Bey, Ismet Inonu, and Talaat Pasha -- the founder of "modern" Turkey applied himself to the destruction of the Pontian Greeks." Really, do you want to use that sentence as a reference? Deniz^T_C 15:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, CGS source has this: "Not to be cited or quoted without permission of the auther" Deniz^T_C 15:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that much about the Pontian Greek Genocide, but I do know that Osman was involved in the AG. -- Aivazovsky 15:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Zoryan ref already mentions that. Aivazovsky please check the comment I put there, I will soon remove CGS ref. Deniz^T_C 16:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see it now. Thanks! -- Aivazovsky 17:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Aivazovsky, I checked your recent edits on this talk page now. Let me tell you that, Topal Osman is not known much in Turkey, he is certainly not 'placed among the great political leaders of Republican Turkey's early history like Atatürk and İnönü', neither is he seen as a big hero by people other than the likes of Veli Küçük of Susurluk Scandal fame. Deniz^T_C 17:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I see. I wasn't sure about that comment earlier so I ended up removing it. My whole thought on that was that he shouldn't be placed among Atatürk and İnönü. -- Aivazovsky 17:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Source removed. "He is tied to the Armenian Genocide,The following reference has this: "Not to be cited or quoted without permission of the auther" Please provide the permission."Must.^{T C} 12:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm readding the source from the Zoryan Institute. Only the first source (from http://www.cgs.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/) cannot be cited without permission of the author. Fortunately, I have Taner Akçam's book, "A Shameful Act" which confirms Osman's misdeeds. -- Aivazovsky 13:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Denizz for readding the Zoryan source. I'll add the Akçam reference shortly. -- Aivazovsky 13:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Article is very incoherent

Was he fighting armed men or 'murdering' the innocent or both?Was he a national hero or an insurgent or both?--Doktor Gonzo 16:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The latter to the first question, the former to the second.The Myotis (talk) 18:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty sure he fought against Armenian and Pontic Greek militias too.--Doktor Gonzo 20:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

And I suppose you have NPOV sources to back that up? Or that such militias even existed? The Myotis (talk) 21:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Considering the amount of Turcophobia in the West, especially in the early 20th century, neutrality of sources is irrelevant. My main source of information regarding post-WWI Turkey is Nutuk. I think it is fit to hear from the man who fought the thrust of history instead of from the people who wrote it.--Doktor Gonzo 21:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)