Talk:Anonymous (hacker group)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 22:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The idea of "Anonymous" as an individual or organization is a joke popular on various imageboards, particularly 4chan. It would be much more correct to describe both the "Anonymous" concept and the activities listed in the article as being part of imageboard culture.

Attributing activities to "Anonymous," as the article does now, is at best meaningless and at worst defamatory. Those in the know realize Anonymous is a joke, while among those poor souls who take it seriously, there is no consensus whatsoever about which group of people are the "true Anonymous." In contrast, there is no such dispute over what an imageboard is.

While it is true that Project Chanology has expanded beyond the *chans, this article as it stands is about various things that have been planned on imageboards, not about Project Chanology exclusively. Furthermore, it is quite common for memes originating on the imageboards to spread to the Internet at large. That said, I would estimate that the majority of Chanology participants are still 4chan users.

The news reporters and Scientology lawyers who discuss "Anonymous" as if it were serious business have been trolled, and they are now the laughingstock of the Internet. Don't let it happen to Wikipedia. Jim E. Black (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

ok, the perpose of wikipedia is to make an on-line encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone. Since "peer review by experts in the field" is impossable for an open encyclopedia (which is how newspapers, encyclopedias, journals, perioticals, established publishers choose what to print and what not to print), we have rules that establish varafiablity in order to prevent total chaos and keep "endurance trolling" from becoming established inclusion tecquneqes. when it comes to current events or popular culture, news agencys are one of the best sources. this article is under dispute by "members of Anonymous" who see a different side of the orgonization (much like the Scientology article is under dispute by members of that orgonization...Alcoholics Anonymous...Mormonism...Jewish...feminism..etc.) but this article does accuratly portray how Anonymous is percieved by the culture at large baced on what is disiminated to the public and on how Anonymous has functioned in the public eye. If the media didn't latch on to a particular "raid" or report a spacific "aspect" of anonymous then those things are probably only important to a small group, rather than the population at large. additionaly the ambiguitous nature of Anonymous makes it FREAKING IMPOSSABLE for everyone to come to agreement on any aspect of the orgonization. The only truly accurate page would say "Anonymous is an internet handel used whenever someone or a group of people want to be seen as working from a larger collective" other than that everything elce is in despute. so to sum up, the perpose of this article isn't to report on every single nuaunce of an internet culture, it isn't to portray anyones agenda or personal observations, it is to show how Anonymous is portrayed in public culture (or the Public sphere if you will). we don't care about what people individualy or collectivly do in private. I don't care about your donky kong score, your wow caricter, or your various posts to internet image boards. "those things don't consern me" (tylor durden, Fight Club) what does consern me is what Anonymous is doing to affect the public at large, and how that public perseves Anonymous. If they didn't see it...well it didn't really happen, it was just an occurance in an isolated community with little or no affect in general. If you don't like this article, bring reliable sources that will change it. I am really sick of people crying their little eyes out about inclusion rules. those same rules keep scientologists from posting that Anonymous is made up of a bunch of criminals who exchange child pornography (read the talk page and archives) so don't get all uppity about how those rules shouldn't apply.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I lost my point in the rant. in short if you want to make an article about image board culture, go ahead, however this article isn't supposed to adress image board culture, but rather the public image of the "internet group Anonymous".Coffeepusher (talk) 20:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

We have good sources that explain why "Anonymous (group)" and "imageboard culture" are the same topic. For example, the City Paper article says that "Anonymous became the name for the users of the site [4chan] as a whole--a sort of hive mind of popular opinion." I'm just pushing for a title that is (a) neutral and (b) not a joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim E. Black (talk • contribs) 01:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

yes, but the media and all the sources are reporting on "Anonymous" (in what they percieve as actions that are occuring both IRL and in cyberspace by a "group" of that name) not "imageboard culture" as a whole. your statement "Attributing activities to "Anonymous," as the article does now, is at best meaningless and at worst defamatory" is interesting, because all the sources are atributing those activities to Anonymous because the people doing them are identifying themselves as Anonymous, not people from imageboards. If "Anonymous" dosn't want to be labled in the media as "Anonymous" or they are sick of people using the Joke "Anonymous" and taking it seriously then they should stop using the title "Anonymous" when doing raids IRL. We don't have an article for "the longcat is looooong" because it is an inside joke with no relivance to real life...the same goes for "The cake is a lie"..."Habebit"..."Wild rose song (non-internet inside joke)"..."Red ass (again)"..."ax handel" but "anonymous" not only has been taken out of the realm of imageboard culture as an inside joke, and now has been reapropriated to acctivities that are seperate from that culture. It is no wonder that the imageboards want the name back, but it is seperate now, and has a cultural significance that is unrelated to its origional form.Coffeepusher (talk) 02:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You write "all the sources are atributing those activities to Anonymous because the people doing them are identifying themselves as Anonymous," but this is not correct; the epilepsy raiders identified themselves as being from Ebaumsworld. It was attributed to Anonymous because posts planning the raid were found on 7chan, an imageboard.

Also, this is hilarious, 50,000 offensive emails: http://anonymous-exposed.org/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.240.241.3 (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Memes such as Longcat, etc., are just as much activities of Anonymous as raiding is, and should be mentioned briefly in the article for a balanced perspective. There is at least one source that mentions these things -- "Das Trollparadies" in the German magazine "c't." If this article is to exist at all, it should be about the group of people who call themselves "Anonymous" (i.e. users of certain imageboards) and not just about things that got large amounts of media coverage. If we apply the latter standard, this article should not exist at all, but should redirect to Project Chanology. Jim E. Black (talk) 05:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The reason we created this page was because people wanted to put the other media stuff referancing anonymous into the project chanology page...and it was getting messy. waaaaayyyyy to much disconjoined information. so this page was created. if you have a WP:RS for memes, by all means put them in. the people on those image boards identified themselves as anonymous...so I fail to see your point about ebamsCoffeepusher (talk) 09:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose exactly how is SLASHDOT an imageboard? Considering that anonymous is used in webboards that are _not_ imageboards means that the request is fundametally flawed. 70.55.85.225 (talk) 04:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Replace this with a copy of the Wikichan page

This page: [1] Is much more established and supported by many anonymous, and should replace this current page, which if I may add, is full of FAIL and AIDS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.252.16.220 (talk) 20:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

     I support this 
               -Anonymous
     I support this too :3
               -Anonymous
     I approve as well
               -Anonymous  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.35.245.106 (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC) 
     Fking signed!
               -Anonymous  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.226.71.254 (talk) 20:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC) 

    As Wikichan is edited by anonymous who don't care to frequent Wiki (and that's probably a lot, this is a better fix. I approve 
               -Anonymous  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.87.30 (talk) 23:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC) 

hummm...according to the page you guys referanced;

"IT ARE FACT: Anyone claiming to be part of anonymous is not part of anonymous. Anyone claiming they are anonymous, they are not anonymous. Anyone claiming that anonymous is a group, they know nothing about anonymous. Anyone who calls themselves anon/anonymous or uses anon/anonymous usernames (ie: anon553 ) is not part of anonymous. And most likely, YOU are not part of anonymous, so stop saying you are. Anonymous is anonymous and that is all."

So you guys must be poser scifags who are full of anti-lulz.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The replace will never happen. This place has different standards from Wikichan. Might be better, might be worse. Anon031408 (talk) 11:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Group?

Anonymous is not a group. Lurk moar. Groups have leaders and define membership. Anonymous does not. Groups have people who identify themselves as being part of that group, and are also recognised unanimously in the group to have membership. This is not the case with anonymous. You may be part of Anonymous without even knowing it. If you claim to be a part of anonymous, you are not truly anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.55.229 (talk) 11:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this sentiment fully. ALL groups have leadership and hierarchy. Just the other day, I went to the grocery store and saw a group of apples Sieg Heil a Golden Delicious. (By the way, even if Anonymous were to be described an organization, not all organized groups have official membership or leadership either. Group is still the best term to use.)--Cast (talk) 15:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Look, in order to have the article we have to call Anonymous something. Group is as good a word as any. Unless you can think of a more acurate word, then stop complaining already. 86.70.151.70 (talk) 14:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

collective? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.55.229 (talk) 01:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If consensus can be established, I would be in favour of renaming. I know this has been discussed previously, but the recent attacks to the epilepsy forum have resurfaced the problem. What Anonymous lacks (which other groups don't) is a definition of its (collective) identity beyond the meaning of its root word, anonymous. As a weak analogy, compare it with the "group" of homosexual people. One doesn't call them gays (group); one refers to them as the gay culture. What makes the case of Anonymous even more inaccurate is that individuals identifying themselves with Anonymous have widely differing interpretations of what their Anonymous is. There is an article on GlossLip, Fact From Fiction: Not All Members Of Anonymous Are Created Equal, which discusses this problem elaborately, pointing out three distinct groupings of Anonymous: “Anti-Scientology” Anonymous, “In It For the Lulz” Anonymous, and the “bad” Anonymous. Members of the first grouping generally would strongly deny that they are affiliated with members of the last grouping, and vice versa, destroying the notion of a "group" in the traditional sense.

I would like to hear your opinions and recommendations. How about "cultural phenomenon"? Ayla (talk) 11:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

How about no. Even those 3 groups in the GlossLip article are not truly seperate; the lines are blurred and many people have been involved in all 3 "groups" the article lists. Anonymous has it's own definition of what it is; most of this article is flagrantly ignoring them, but the group does have definitions. 68.101.12.47 (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. "Your" Anonymous might have its own definition of what it is, but there is no globally accepted definition, and no authority to impose one. The reason you say that the article is "flagrantly ignoring" the definition is because, due to the verifiability policy, Wikipedia articles are constrained to cite only reliable sources, which often give a definition different from the one held by the original members of the subculture. And I find it hard to accept that (using the GlossLip article's groupings) the “Anti-Scientology” Anonymous is not distinct from the “bad” Anonymous, for obvious reasons. Ayla (talk) 06:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

ITT: Newfags and non-anons argue about who/what is Anonymous. We are what we are, and we have no division. There are no separate groups within Anonymous, only Anonymous. --81.99.58.0 (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Sites

The article says that Anon uses sites like Facebook and Youtube. This is untrue. These sites are regular enemies of Anonymous and users of them are shunned. Another thing is that the Chanology protests are becoming independent of Anonymous. Although it is unfair to say that the early raids were not Anonymous. The same people who did the early protests are the SAME Anonymous that raided the Epilepsy forums. I should know, I participated in the Epilepsy raids. The announcement on 7chan that Scientology did it, is in fact a troll, something the 7chan staff does regularly. Back to that Chanology thing. Many Anonymous are becoming dissatisfied with the recent events in Project Chanology. It is said that the more recent protesters are doing it in the name of righteousness, rather than lulz, the only thing Anonymous cares about. Another fact is that Chanology is becoming polluted with the participation of "Gaiafags" (users of the forum, Gaia, a notable enemy of Anonymous that is currently being raided) and other sorts of unwanted types. The epilepsy raids were a show of power. To show the world that Anonymous is not the internet vigilante that the media wants to romticize it as. It is a cruel "internet hate machine". But the internet hate machine is not a group, it is just another name for Anonymous.

4chan.org - No mention?

Anonymous today may be a collective of people indiscriminately brought together from various websites, but the group firmly originated on 4chan's /b/ board before later spreading out to other 4chan offshoots and alternatives, and finally encompassing sites without any 4chan affiliations. I feel that a section on the group's origins may be appropriate, but I lack the citations to support writing a section on it. Just throwing it out there as something that this article needs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.69.196 (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree. Anon is def. 4chan in origin. To mention slashdot, youtube, and facebook is a slap in the face to the original anonymous. slashdot, youtube, and facebook are the sorts of things that WE WOULD RAID before all of this chanology nonsense. - David —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.177.114 (talk) 00:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

inb4 r.1+2 The website in question is no longer the hub of Anonymous, but much rather a hellhole slum decayed from a once glorious city.--Samwu22128 (talk) 07:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Said the "newfags the lot of you" guy. 4chan is still the hub of anonymous. Sid (talk) 09:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

4chan is anonymous is 4chan. anonymous= user of 4chan. The fact 4chan is not mentioned makes this article a bit pointless.

The people who frequented *chan boards called themselves "Anonymous" for YEARS only as an inside joke. (i.e. Anonymous is really only 3 people with A.D.D.) Outside of the *chan boards they were more likely to call them selves /b/tards or a 4chaner or an /i/nsurgent depending on the situation because noone really considered themselves part of a group as much as as someone who was partaking in an event or using a website. The name Anonymous changed from a joke to a semi official name only with the Scientology protests because it sounded like serious business. Anonymous was born and raised on 4chan. I agree this article is pointless without the mention of 4chan. (Even though i moved to 7chan on /b/day.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.226.71.254 (talk) 21:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Reliable source...anyone...Again I mention that these rules are what keeps critics from posting that Anonymous is a bunch of pediphile terrorists nazi commies (actuall information that was placed inside the article and cut because of WP:RS regulations) so please understand that if you don't have what wikipedia considers a reliable source, the information can't be placed inside the article, no matter how true it appears to be to you. if you want to work with wikipedia, then you have to work within the regulations just like everyone elce (the scientologists complain about their article about as much as the chaners complain about theirs).Coffeepusher (talk) 01:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Meme creation and other features

Section created for 'lolcats' 'o rly owl' 'tay zonday' and 'rickroll' would be nice.

also, need a section on yellow v&... and loli... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haiguyzzzz (talk • contribs) 21:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I also think that it would be nice for it to at least mention that stuff like caturday and rickrolls were started by Anonymous. 165.155.192.65 (talk) 12:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

stuff like that is already mentioned in detail at "the site that shall not be named" which has different rules for inclusion and is better equipted to deal with obscure unsourced phenomina. wikipedia's inclusion guidelines require a secondary source, so if you have a WP:RS by all means include it inside the article.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

it are a fact, that whoever wrote this article knows almost absolutely nothing about anonymous.24.150.235.28 (talk)

Symbols & Motifs

Shouldn't there be a section on this? Just a brief mention of the empty suit and the adoption of V's Guy Fawkes mask?

And while I'm here, does anyone else think that Anonymous should link to Odysseus? When he blinded Poseidons son, the cyclopes Polyphemus, he was asked his name and replied "Metis", meaning "No-one". That's pretty hardcore for a griefer. 80.7.26.80 (talk) 17:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

• sigh* Reliable source and it can be included.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Article shouldn't exist

It's POV forking at best and recentism at worst. The meme belongs at the project chanology and 4chan articles. It's also pinning them on the chans(unnotable outside of 4chan) when the raids were largely done by ebaumsworld. If the article deserves to be here there's needs to be a section on the criticism of the protester by the people responsible for the internet attacks.YVNP (talk) 17:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, you go find a reliable source of criticism of the protesters by the "people responsible for the internet attacks".DigitalC (talk) 05:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

would 4chanarchive count? It is pretty evident. Also there is a meme referred to as the cancer that is killing /b/. It is very prevalent and I can show plenty of archive threads in which it is used. And that only if this can be proven to anything more than a recentist synthesis taking a non serious event to seriously. Also I've notice no one can tell me why this should not reduced to a mention in the 4chan artcile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.128.182 (talk) 04:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

No, 4chanarchive is not a reliable source, nor is it a secondary source. Anonymous is more than 4chan, and that is why it should not be reduced to a mention in the 4chan article. DigitalC (talk) 23:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

How are sites like 7chan and 420chan notable? These are the only other sites that played a role. Only ebaumsworld and 4chan played huge roles. Moot(the moderator) of 4chan has criticized the internet attacks as it is clear 4chan played a role. That would be criticism. There is a meme known as "THE CANCER KILLING /B/". It refers tocriticisms of the raid. In short your right anonymous is more than 4chan but it's still mostly just 4chan and ebaumsworld. These two sites have a relationship with each other. Even then the chanology article is more than worthy of a merge with this

Anonymous has not been more than a 4chan meme for at least 3 years until a few months ago and the 4chan archive can prove that. How is it not a reliable source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.195.195.7 (talk) 14:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Olympic Torch Relay

Anonymous is trying to put out the olympic torch on its run across the world. I can cite sources and all but every time I edit this page it gets reverted by someone who thinks anonymous is a joke and doesn't deserve an accurate article. So some admin with "pull" should look into it. Anon was behind the paris attacks with fire extinguishers. But don't listen to me, do some research and find out for yourself before mindlessly declaring someone else to be wrong.Dragonnas (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I am really confused about your claim that you keep getting reverted. unless you have been editing the page from an IP, you havn't touched this page at all. and none of the IP edits have had anything to do with the olimpic torch relay.Coffeepusher (talk) 16:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Put the links to the sources here. If you can't get it onto the page, someone else will. I have seen no evidence to suggest Anonymous was involved in the Olympic Torch protests. DigitalC (talk) 23:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

that's just a threat. It isn't an actual event.75.6.134.164 (talk) 10:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous isn't trying to do anything. Anon is not a discrete group of people with a single goal in mind. A few people on a couple boards are talking about putting out the torch. Big deal. Things like that happen all the time, usually nothing comes of them. Stop crystal-balling. Ziggy Sawdust —Preceding comment was added at 18:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I know that but people here take the group to be a serious threat75.6.152.84 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous "Slogan"

The Anonymous Slogan is "We are anonymous, We do not forgive, we do not forget, we are legion"
As to after the chanology project started the last part was dropped for moral reason, being as anonymous has no "morals" and does it for the lulz I have changed it. If you wish to know that this is the truth please post a thread on 711chan.org(where the only oldfags on the internet are left) they will know what I am speaking about.Butthax (talk) 23:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Source needed. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 02:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting source

Pickard, Anna (2008-04-27). "ROFLCon final session: Cult leaders: The man ultimately responsible for the rick roll meets his audience". Guardian Unlimited: Technology. Guardian News and Media Limited. Retrieved 2008-04-27.

Possible source to use in this article. Cirt (talk) 17:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Why do you keep reverting when I try to remove this? Any random blog can be used as a source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deadliner1 (talk • contribs) 08:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

It's a talk page for discussion. It's not in the main article. Anybody can post messages here as long as they are related to the article. You cannot simply remove somebody else's message. Dekisugi (talk) 08:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

It also isn't a "random blog". It is published by the guardian. DigitalC (talk) 04:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous Leader Now Well Known

• Sawyer, Rick (April 29, 2008). "Anonymous Leader Now Well Known". Bostonist. Gothamist LLC. Retrieved 2008-04-29. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Useful info for this article. Cirt (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

More recently in 2008, specific actions were undertaken by specific group, groups, or organizations, also self-named as "Anonymous", and often associated with websites and chat systems on the internet.

Since there is only one single group called anonymous (4chan and it's extensions), wouldn't it be better to state that Anonymous is a group, and not a group of groups. Personally, I think the best way to describe Anonymous would be with the term hive mind