Talk:Pacifism

Concerns with Nov. 2007 Version

I've been reviewing this article and its talk page for a while now, trying to decide where to begin. I have three main problems with the article as it currently stands:

1. Unencyclopaedic (Insufficient Scope)
2. Unclear Editing/NPOV
3. Overlap w/ Nonviolence, Nonviolent Resistance

ρ∈∧⊂∈ ∴ Heelan Coo (Talk) 17:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Unencyclopaedic/Insufficient Scope

As the article currently stands, it is both misleading and unencyclopaedic. It devotes almost no attention to non-religious forms of pacifism, and up until the 'Criticisms' section, makes no reference to the available philosophical literature on pacifism. The lead-in paragraph needs to be edited for clarity, and is probably in need of expert attention. ρ∈∧⊂∈ ∴ Heelan Coo (Talk) 17:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In addition, there are many religious positions on war that are not mentioned at all, such as those held in Judaism and Islam, which are of great interest in the world today. Paulsnx2 (talk) 14:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Like I say below, it was a real mess before I cleaned up what was there, but right now that's all I have time for. Please add what your think needs adding with sources. (I'm even more into them now than was when did this in my earlier editing days :-)

Carol Moore 21:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

Unclear Editing/NPOV

The lead-in paragraph as well as the 'Criticisms' and 'Quotations' section lack clear form and structure. The lead-in paragraph is far from an exhaustive summary on the types of pacifism available, and has further problems such as the suggestion that consequentialism is not a moral position, which I think is ridiculous. The section on criticisms is a complete mess, and the quotes section could stand to be expanded, if not clearly divided into pro-pacifism and anti-pacifism quotes. ρ∈∧⊂∈ ∴ Heelan Coo (Talk) 17:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Analysis of Current Lead-in

Pacifism is the opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes or gaining advantage. Pacifism covers a spectrum of views ranging from the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved; to calls for the abolition of the institutions of the military and war; to opposition to any organization of society through governmental force (anarchist or libertarian pacifism); to rejection of the use of physical violence to obtain political, economic or social goals; to opposition to violence under any circumstance, including defense of self and others.

I wonder if this is the best way to set about defining pacifism. The term is quite broad, and resists an all-encompassing definition. This should be clear from the outset, which it currently is not. Furthermore, this list of things that pacifism "covers" is misleading: for example, a conscientious objector wouldn't fit neatly in any of the categories; additionally, some pacifists might fit more than one category. Rather than give random examples of things a pacifist might believe, woudln't it be better to launch right in to the different ways of dividing up pacifists? (e.g. religious/nonreligious, deontological/consequentialist, absolute/contingent, etc.)

Pacifism may be based on moral principles (a deontological view) or pragmatism (a consequentialist view). Principled pacifism holds that at some point along the spectrum from war to interpersonal physical violence, such violence becomes morally wrong. Pragmatic pacifism holds that the costs of war and inter-personal violence are so substantial that better ways of resolving disputes must be found. Pacifists in general reject theories of Just War.

This section is one of the worst in the lead-in paragraph. First of all, consequentialism IS a moral principle, so the first sentence is making a weird claim. Secondly, pacifism isn't necessarily about deciding where 'along the spectrum' of violence it 'becomes wrong'. A pacifist might hold that there are mitigating circumstances that make violence right or wrong at any level of this 'spectrum', so this is just an oversimplification. As for the last sentence, there is a whole branch of pacifism called just war pacifism that adheres to the definition of just war, but denies that modern wars fit it. It might be argued that this is a minority view, but that would need to be a verifiable statement. To just say that "in general" pacifists do this or that is far from the level of content demanded by an encyclopaedic article.

Pacifists follow principles of nonviolence, believing that non-violent action is morally superior and/or pragmatically most effective. Some pacifists, however, support physical violence for emergency defense of self or others. Others support destruction of property in such emergencies or for conducting symbolic acts of resistance like pouring red paint to represent blood on the outside of military recruiting offices or entering air force bases and hammering on military aircraft. However, part of the pacifist belief system is taking responsibility for one's actions by submitting to arrest and using a trial to publicize opposition to war and other forms of violence.

I can't think of any other way to put this, so forgive my shocking statement: What the hell? What are these "principles of nonviolence" that (all?) "[p]acifists follow"? And this nonsense about "some pacifists" doing violent things is rubbish and a clear violation of NPOV. To me, this would be analogous to having a statement like "Some Christians gossip behind their neighbour's back, despite the fact that Jesus said, 'Love thy neighbour'." in the article on Christianity. What some protestors do in the name of pacifism has nothing to do with pacifism as a whole, and this statement is just an ad-hominem that should be removed.

Dove or dovish are informal terms used, especially in politics, for people who prefer to avoid war or prefer war as a last resort. The terms refer to the story of Noah's Ark in which the dove came to symbolize the hope of salvation and peace. Similarly, in common parlance, the opposite of a dove is a hawk or war hawk.

As I understand it, this is not the correct usage of this term. 'Dove' refers to the members of a political movement that occurs in response to a war-mongering faction. Thus, most 'doves' are not traditional pacifists, and that makes this sentence poorly defined at best and misleading at worst.

ρ∈∧⊂∈ ∴ Heelan Coo (Talk) 18:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I made a bunch of changes to this page a few months ago when it was REALLY a mess - and I was a much less experienced editor. It was a lot of work just re-organizing it and sourcing obviously controversial issues. I may have missed a few fine points. I have been keeping tabs on it for anything too untoward being added.

At the time I thought spectrum was a good way of describing the hodgepodge of definitions that was there - including a couple saying defacto "I'm a pacifist against govt wars but not when it comes to smashing windows." Perhaps it needs to note that the spectrum is NOT all inclusive; as a separate listing of each also should do. I encourage people to make the changes they think should be made, within wiki guidelines and sourced when possible, and if it's not too POV, unsourced, or generally outrageous, I don't think you'll get a big argument :-)

Carol Moore 20:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

Overlap w/ Nonviolence, Nonviolent Resistance

Right now, there are three articles with significant overlap: pacifism, nonviolence, and nonviolent resistance. The nonviolent resistance article looks to me like it would be more appropriately titled history of nonviolent resistance, and even then it overlaps considerably with at least nonviolence (if not pacifism, also). ρ∈∧⊂∈ ∴ Heelan Coo (Talk) 17:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

That should be discussed on those pages, not here :-)

Carol Moore 18:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

Where's the Archive gone??

/User:The_Giant_Puffin just deleted?? the archives?? Aren't they supposed to be linked up top somewhere?? Sorry article didn't make it as a feature since I cleaned it up a lot last summer, but as others have noted it was NOT perfect. Carol Moore 18:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

My mistake. I just added {{archivebox|auto=yes}} - • The Giant Puffin • 23:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Quotes Section

In the Quotes section there is a somewhat less than compelling quote by Jacob Borer. I have searched but couldn't find any scholarly references to Jacob Borer or the quote. Remove?

go for it! :-)

Carol Moore 02:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)CarolMooreDC talk

Minor (possible) technical issue

I did a search on 'pacifist' in searching for the Mac OS tool and was redirected here. Probably for good reason, however, I noticed there is a disambiguous page for the term: Pacifist (disambiguation). Maybe the current way is correct, I don't know. Just thought I'd point it out. Thanks. 66.191.19.217 (talk) 04:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I added the link. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 00:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. 68.113.47.11 (talk) 17:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

propose to add love your enemies online book archive to external links

http://loveyourenemies.wordpress.com/category/online-books/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.113.241 (talk) 12:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The following sentance is unsupported and presents what is clearly an opinion as fact:

"The Spanish Civil War proved a major test for international pacifism, and the heroic work of pacifist organisations and individuals in that arena has been largely ignored or forgotten by historians, overshadowed by the memory of the International Brigades and other militaristic interventions."