Talk:Bermuda Triangle

See also: /Archive1,/Archive2, /Archive3

North versus South

---

"The Bermuda Triangle, also known as the Devil's Triangle, is a region of the northwestern Atlantic Ocean..."

^ Shouldn't that be SOUTHWESTERN? I'd change it, but this page seems to be uneditable.

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Trubru (talk • contribs) 07:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

North of the equator, which the Atlantic spans. It's only "South" in relation to some funny little country called the USA. If there's a Falklands Triangle, then that would be in the SW Atlantic. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, technically, it's "south" in relation to about a third of the Earth's surface, but your point still stands.  ;-) Rdfox 76 (talk) 11:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

"Urban Legend"?

I was wondering if teddy is awesome.it's fair to call the bermuda triangle an urban legend in the infobox at the top, seems biased to me --Xombi p (talk) 23:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC) yes it is fair wut else could it be classified--66.244.202.66 (talk) 16:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources

As this page deals with a contentious issue I think that it might be a good if somebody went through and sourced them to a book or journal etc before this page starts attracting Tag and WP:V nazi.

I'd do it myself, but I don't know enough about most of the incidents to do so accurately.

perfectblue 08:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I did as much sourcing as I could and had it listed on the Bermuda Triangle source page, as there's just no room in the article. I'm still finding stuff and adding to it. Carajou 23:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A re-make of the article

Ok, this article needs to be a FEATURED ARTICLE, with that little barnstar in the upper-right corner, so I think there's more that can be done. So, here's some suggestions:

• Since this article is about the Bermuda Triangle, the various books on the subject should be treated as primary sources and placed in first position in all subheadings. If one has any of these books, like the Berlitz version, cite it where needed.
• A rebuke should follow in second position, and that includes anything which clearly contradicts what the Triangle writers have said, like the newspapers I cited. If there is no separate article on an incident, such as the KC-135 takers, we should go into detail here about it.
• If there is a genuine mystery with any given incident (like the Witchcraft), say so. If the incident in question is found only within the Triangle books and no where else, say so. If the Coast Guard has admitted such, say so.
• Go into as much detail as you can on any subheading...here's what the Triangle says...here's what the facts say...something like that.

1% Methane Makes pistons stall? Seems quite unlikely... Methane is a hydrocarbon, somewhat similiar to avation fuel, while I'm no mechanic, I'd think that variation in the amount of hydrocarbon mix would be considered in safety specs. The only halfway germane reference I was able to come up with on Google for keywords like: piston 1% methane stall was: http://deepalivinchurkar.blogspot.com/2007/03/bermuda-triangle-mystery-of-nature.html, a rather nontechincal blog, with no links to this "phenomena". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coexist (talk • contribs) 21:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This is just a suggestion, and I'm sure someone has a better idea. Carajou 00:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

We're not near featured-article status yet, as a large number of the reports have not yet been "digested" with the original source material, as you've said before. Likewise, several WP:Paranormal writers have shared my criticism of the article being biased-POV toward skepticism of the disappearances, which ARE strange . Whether liked or not, there ARE strange events in the region...and point blank, as my own assertion, the military and Coast Guard claims of the region being just as safe as any other can't be trusted not to lie about it, if they lie with ease on other things so blatantly. In any case...a lot more work before any FA talk. Still waiting for the Pogo 22 info, btw. --Chr.K. 10:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Expect 6 to 8 months for any reports; it's that way with Flight 19 via the Naval Historical Center. I don't know what the Air Force is. But, should you or anyone decide to get one, ask for it to be placed on a CD as a PDF file, and have it uploaded to the WikiCommons, if that's possible. Carajou 21:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Credibility problem

I don't like the recent news on TV or the papers about Wikipedia's image. I don't need to repeat what happened, but it does ulimately reflect on us, the average editor, as to content in any given article. In this particlar article some of you are mad at me because I have insisted on sticking to the facts and insisting on documentation. I think the problem is partially my fault because it alters the Wikipedia policy of neutrality; it makes it lean toward one side at the expense of the other.

But the point is I want this article to be the best it can be, where there's just no questioning its credibility. I want the average student who is doing a research paper on the Triangle confident that he can use this article as a well-written source. It means also that I have to swallow some pride here, drop my own personal beliefs in the subject (I don't believe in it, by the way!), and make it better. What say you? Carajou 18:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that if someone loses their credibility, then anything they say will be tainted. Even if they cite their edits, someone could say it's a selective citation. Ultimately, they would have to leave off editing. I've steered clear of major edits on Mothman (a favourite subject of mine), after being accused of bias. I just didn't want to have to justify myself or my work every time. Incidentally my name really is Martin and I really do live in Totnes! Totnesmartin 20:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Do the edits anyway, both major and minor. If you know you have the facts, documentation, and other stuff to bolster your argument, then you can't go wrong. And the supposedly tainted stuff by a dis-credited writer...it can be used provided that we can look up the sources that may back it up. And I'm Brian, and I live in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, just a stone's throw away from the Battle of Stones River. Carajou 21:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Brian? I prefer Carajou. Perhaps you change your real name... Totnesmartin 23:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought about changing it a long time ago, but the county court where I went thought "Herbert Dinwiddie" was too laughable, so I gave up! Carajou 23:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it is very commendable that you at least try to reatain objectiveness. Though my views might be a little different (I think there's is more to this than meets the eye, to say the least.) it would be nice if you could fix at least the verbage of this article. Although you stuck to 'documented facts' (though the source itself my be tainted or biased, one way or the other) the article reads a bit too matter-of-factly. Like mentioned above, it would be great if you could mention all sources and theories and all the evidence for both, while also admitting what is true, such as what the Coast Guard says, or what scientists say, or what the Triangle Authors say etc. If you know what I'm trying to say. In this way, I think, you will nave the most information and an appearent objectivenss that will speak of itself in the future. 70.135.56.219 16:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)Theodore from California.

Oldest newspaper story with the name "Bermuda Triangle"

I went through Proquest's newspapers again, looking for the oldest newspaper report on a missing aircraft, ship, whatever, and the incident in question had to have the words "Bermuda Triangle" as part of the story. The search was limited to the New York Times (not much of a choice with Proquest...I would like to see many others), and the search was limited between the dates 01/01/1960 to 01/01/1975. All that came up were advertizements for vacations on Bermuda, as well as the Berlitz book being on the New York Times best seller list for the end of November, 1974. No incidents at all. None. Nada.

That means the oldest newspaper account in which the writer uses the words "Bermuda Triangle" to describe a disappearance has to be the SS Sylvia L. Ossa, which went down south of Bermuda in 1976. I put up references on both the Bermuda Triangle source page and SS Marine Sulphur Queen, as they were sister ships. But again, that is limited to dates I entered while searching through the New York Times alone.

The point of all that is I want to see references to the oldest Triangle writings. We have Gaddis listed here; we have George X. Sand referenced, and a few others who have made their marks in magazines. I thought it would be interesting to have the reader see the oldest use of a newspaper entry with the Triangle title directly related to a disappearence. What say you? Carajou 04:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Freak Waves

I moved the section on Freak Waves to the Natural Explanations section, as this is a natural explanation. Why it was previously under Popular Explanations, I do not know. It may be popular, but it fits better under natural phenomena. Thelastemperor 04:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I originally placed it there, possibly as it was one of the popular theories regarding the incidents...but it still works where you placed it. I also moved the related pic to go with it. Carajou 00:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)i do not agree with the freak waves being under Natural Explanations do to there is very little evidence of the waves being a contributer due to people's storys they could be lieing just to not be afriad

I saw a documentary on the history channel around a year ago (when the Poseidon movie came out) detailing the facts about rogue waves. It talked about the Bermuda triangle. It also showed data collected from a satellite that tracks rogue waves and their frequency. The Bermuda Triangle area was one of the biggest rogue wave hot spots on the Earth! A massive wave would be a good explanation for ships disappearing. They would take them down quickly and wouldn't leave much behind, and since this would happen quickly, it would reduce the likelihood of the ship's crew getting out a distress call (though the planes is another thing).Why is this theory simply refuted in this wiki article?? The two reasons above are a very plausible explanation. (4/13/08) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.76.196 (talk) 03:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Citation on methane concentration

This sentence is requesting a cite: "Methane also has the ability to cause a piston engine to stall when released into the atmosphere even at an atmospheric concentration as low as 1%[citation needed]" under Methane Hydrates. I saw it on the show Dive to Bermuda Triangle on The Science Channel. Is that a reputable cite? MDfoo 02:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

A good source is one that can be checked by others, so they don't have to rely on your say-so. Plazak 22:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not expecting others to rely on my say-so. That's why I didn't cite it in the article. I could not find an online reference for this assertion. But it seems that the original author may have got the information from the same show. imdb link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0408692/ I will continue to look for a cite. MDfoo 19:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean to jump on you. I intended "your" in the more generic sense. I should have written more precisely: "so they don't have to rely on the author's say-so." Plazak 13:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, gotcha. I assume that the writers of the show got their information from somewhere, but I cannot find it on the web anywhere. It's probably in some science journal offline. I'm going to leave this as it is. MDfoo 11:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It was a television special on the Discovery Channel. I remember watching them pump methane into an airplane engine. The special had to do with a recent discovery of some airplanes that went missing off the coast of Florida. 155.33.109.198 20:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Total numbers of ships?

There are a couple places where the article mentions how heavily trafficked the triangle area is, and that the number of incidents is small relative to the number of ships/planes/etc passing through. Does anyone have hard numbers on these? How about a brief note to the effect of:

An average amount of daily traffic for the rough triangle area is:

 * XXX commercial ships (freighters, tankers, cruises, etc)
 * YYY pleasure/private ships (yachts, sailboats, columbian drug runners, etc)
 * ZZZ aircraft

Thanks! Jeffadams78 18:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Quicksand

Hasn't it ever come to anybody's attention that the sand on the seabed of the area in the Bermuda Triangle may be quicksand, so any planes or ships which disappear may be sucked underneath the seabed

Quicksand does not suck anything down. Please see the Wikipedia article on the subject. Plazak 18:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I read in a book, although i cant remember which book, that in the Bermuda triangle, scientists have measured the ocean floor there and they said that at times, the floor would sink to a depth they never thought was possible. I don't think its quicksand, because quicksand never sinks, only the people that walk into it do. I also read something about the methane gases.--71.253.97.210 03:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The possibility of extremely murky material at the oceanfloor has been studied, and often rejected. Either way, it does not explain the instances of disappearance right off radar screens at altitudes in excess of 25,000 ft., among other things. --Chr.K. 11:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

citation / references

• we really need to cite a lot of things in this article, i cant tell if people made some of the "facts" up or if its just personal opinion or what not (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 19:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

i agree and theres no way that it could be supernatral. that is under sientiffic thery. there has to be a sientiffic explanation of the events. They say that Know-one has figured out the reasining of these events, but where this is located there are high rated tropical storms that range over this spicific aria there for there may have ben somthing of this sort that happoned to the plains... Not to mention that the radios most probabbly went out be cause of this. I mean thank about it a radio is like a CD a CD gets to close to a magnent and the magnent erases the data ,right, and in in this spacific aera if there is a numerious amount of iron , copper, or outher matallic metal it wil static out the radio.. there for the piolots or captans could not notify for help during there emergency, plain/ship went down, sunk thousands of feet down, father than any researcheers are ecwept to go. there for said to of vanished. Maby there would be some way of decteting this under the water, such as in a submarine, this way you will not sink, or have the possibality of above H2O curents forming tropical storms that will interfere withe the study. Now with all the superstitions now one capable of figering this out is willing to give it a try.... What do you think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.30.118 (talk) 01:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sign your comments and use grammar, please. There is no reason to believe that it isn't supernatural. And no one has proven or disproven any of this. I am a strong believer in the theory that it is over or near Atlantis, but seriously, there was a man who made it through the Triangle. He says he flew through a strange cloud with purple lightning surging through it. It was tough at first, but it became calm, like the eye of a hurricane. He flew straight through it, but when he got out, he was in the exact same spot as he was when he entered. Try to explain that with your scientific mumbo-jumbo. The Matyr ^{(converse with the Matyr)} 19:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

skepdic.com/bermuda.html

shouldn't this, or something to that effect be included in the article? as it stands now, this article only reinforces the erronous assumptions people have about the triangle.

If you're referring to the eroneous assumptions people make about several of the more extremely bizarre events being explainable by normal scientific rationales, I concur. Also, please identify, if you will. --Chr.K. 11:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

USS Scorpion

The sub went down about 400 miles SW of the Azores... 2200 miles from the Bermuda Triangle. See this Google map. Anynobody 01:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Quorum Sensing

I'd like to propose a theroy based on the current research into "Quorum Sensing"[1] demonstrating the properties inherent in certain waterborn algeas found in area of Bermuda[2][3][4].

see also:[5]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdailey1 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC) 

Along the same lines as other mysterious vanishings such as Amelia Earhart and the like [6] but, I think it possible the vanishing are both explainable and preventable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.41.155.8 (talk) 20:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposed stylistic correction

In the section "The Spray" there stands: "While a mystery, there is no known evidence for, or against, paranormal activity."

What would be "evidence against paranormal activity", exactly? (...If not evidence for some rational course events, which has been ruled out earlier in the paragraph, anyway.)

Someone please explain, otherwise I will go on considering it a careless (though minor) slip of bogus writing style in an otherwise very readable and well-rewritten article - thanks for all the hard-working editors. I think the word "against" should be left out and I will return to the issue if no counter-arguments occur.

Jaakko Kortesharju, Helsinki, Finland 128.214.157.168 20:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Jaakko. I agree and go ahead and make the edit, be bold. MDfoo 14:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

its very intresting —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.194.202 (talk) 01:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

When it was the last accident occured ?

--Max Mayr 10:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The most recent disappearance reported by Quasar, apparently still under investigation, involved a Berry Piper PA-46-310P, call letters N444JH, on April 10, 2007, near the Berry Islands. The most recent disappearance to be found via investigation to have "no known cause" was a Piper PA-32-300, call letters N8224C, on November 12, 2003 over the Exumas, Bahamas region ("What's New" section). --Chr.K. (talk) 11:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

My short Theory on Bermuda Triangle.

--Yourprerak1 07:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)pjshah 11/07/07

one question is left to all of us, humans, does the bermuda triangle really exist? or is it just a mith? but what of all the incidents? were they just a coincidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.6.107.93 (talk) 21:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Wherever there are planes and ships, there will be plane crashes and shipwrecks. Wherever there are more planes and ships, let's say between Bermuda, Miami, and San Juan, there will be more plane crashes and shipwrecks. It's that simple. Deltabeignet (talk) 06:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This is curious, given that in many of the cases, finding wrecks would be a welcome alternative to vanishing without trace. Literally, off of radarscopes, sometimes. --Chr.K. (talk) 11:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Omnisaur (talk) 06:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)omnisaur The 'vedas' according to the Aryan Culture in India, has it about chakras, the power points, bssically seven, known as the the 'Sapt-Rishi', 'sapt' meaning seven and 'rishi' meaning pilgrim, which implies the 'Seven Pilgrims'. The seventh chakra, or power point on the end of backbone of a human, near the tail, to basically a vertebrate is the 'Sudarshana Chakra' also known as the 'sex-chakra', which can manipulate the vibrations inside a human body and can be used for destructive purposes, an example would be the power dome to kinetic arts, jinx, ki balls, etc. The 'sudarshana chakra' have many depictions, pictorial representations out of which one is a circle with a concentric triangle which have a whirlpool shaped diagram which is similar to the 'power of universe' symbol. If the bermuda triangle is depicted to be a power point, it manipulates gigantically strong power fields which blocks metals from working because of the magnetic field created due to the power field. I have viewed it that way, and for the 'permoda box' is another which is situated at the antipode of 'bermuda triangle', collapse the two diagrams together, we would get the shape of a concentric 'hexacle' as in witch-craft inside a circle. Even in religion, the planets are believed to be dieties, and in guwahati, old 'Pragjyotishpura', there are temples for all of the nine planets. Milan KB.

I think its the government. because in the middle of the triangle there is a 1 mile by 1 mile island. So I think that the government has extraterrestral (however you spell it)life on the island. and when planes get too close or ships get too close they are shot down and the people who survive that are killed.

Query

"there is no doubt that many ships and airplanes have been lost in the area."

The rest of the article seems to be in contradiction to this statement, shouldn’t it say something on the lines of "there is no doubt that many ships and airplanes have been lost in the area but statistically no more than any other area of sea ...." or some such —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.234.250.71 (talk) 13:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It should, if that were verifiable by anything other than Official Governmental assertion. --Chr.K. (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Magnetic Section

Is the discussion of magnetic north and the geography behind it really relevent to the artice? Benjy17 02:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"Hauntings" subsection

Hi all, the "Hauntings" subsection under Popular Theories reads more like a dramatization or story. There's alot of "absolute" and loaded words, and things such as "mercilessly" and "heartlessly". It doesn't sound very objective, nor does its cited source. 18.238.6.18 (talk) 03:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Some of us who harbor not a shred of doubt as to the authenticity of some very weird reported events in the region share your distaste for the extremely non-scientific, unsourced phrasings. However, articles like this one have quite a problem with BOTH extremes, of fantasticism on the one hand ("They're HERE!!" "Who??!" "THEM!!!"), and pseudoskepticism on the other ("Don't confuse me with 'factual reports'; I know such things do not exist!"). Here's encouraging anyone to weed out the fantasticism at leisure, so long as the factual material remains. --Chr.K. (talk) 10:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Ocean Ranger

The reference to the Ocean Ranger is not accurate enough. Indeed, there was a wave that broke a porthole on one of the legs, that flooded a control room that controlled the ballasting system. The ballasting system became faulty, and several hours later the rig did list and sank. As written, however, the current text suggests a rogue wave sank the rig. It did not. The rig sank because of the failure of the ballasting system. Whether that was caused by a wave breaking the porthole or by human error was never entirely proven.

Also, the article should make it clear that the Ocean Ranger sank off Newfoundland (nowhere near the Bermuda Triangle). I know the author is merely trying to suggest that some vessels in the Triangle sank because of rogue waves, but the reference to the Ocean Ranger, as currently written, could leave some readers thinking that it sank in the Triangle.

Otherwise, a very interesting article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.197.178.2 (talk) 20:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not well-versed enough in the Ocean Ranger case to make a detailed explanation or source the material. If it in fact took place off Newfoundland, it could well be argued that it should be removed entirely. --Chr.K. (talk) 07:09, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The Bermuda Triangle & its editors

Wikipedia is about to lose out on this because people believe that it is a legend, some think it is true and we as Wikipedians need to find out which one to write about. People are blocking Wikipedia because it can be edited! They think this is fake and untrue. We need to get ourselves together before no one uses Wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ziggymarley01 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

What's going on is basically a passionate, low-level edit war over the material, between those who believe the government/agency claim that there's nothing unusual about the region, and those who believe those same agencies' complete stonewalling, when one tries to get facts of the most baffling cases, is indicative of Officialdom not being at all trustworthy (guess which one I am). In the struggle (in which rational discussion is apparently impossible, of late), the search for the facts is usually the first casualty. --Chr.K. (talk) 09:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I think people don't know excatly about Bermudas triangle it is. Every article just talk about a mysterious, not talk about the excistency of that. The question is : Is there a man that ever came out from there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.163.2.34 (talk) 08:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The question of whether "anyone's come out" of the region is somewhat of a misnomer to begin, since the vast majority of people, by far, experience nothing out of the ordinary in their transit through the northwestern Atlantic Ocean. But of those who DO experience surreal events, or those who vanish, do any ever come back? Plenty people have "lived to tell tales," ranging from taking off and, without turning, winding up some minutes or hours down the road heading right for the landing strip they originally took off from, or in turn, getting caught in weird "limbos" for a time before somehow coming free. World famous aviator Martin Cadin, since passed away, wrote a book that included several such tales, entitled Ghosts of the Air, which can be looked up on [Amazon]. Has anyone who's completely vanished ever resurfaced? I've never heard of it, so long as the disappearance was or bordered on the truly bizarre. If someone involved in drug smuggling were to vanish, that's a good reason in and of itself right there; they might've gotten mixed up in something, or they wanted to disappear. But, as well mentioned, it's the "vanishing in one pass of a radarscope along with the vessel's emergency GPS locator to boot" type that are in question. --Chr.K. (talk) 07:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there a atlantis

well i have figured that there must be some kind of ancient city in the bermuda due to the Road that was found —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.244.202.66 (talk) 16:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Statistics

Could be that I have not read the article thoroughly enough, but it doesn't seem to address this crucial question clearly: is there any statistical basis for claiming that the area defined here exhibits extraordinary characteristics that warrants its notority? Yes, ships and planes have disappeared in this area, but these things happen elsewhere as well. Relrel (talk) 20:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)