User talk:Orderinchaos: Difference between revisions
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::::The trouble with the current mode-of-behaviour at the John Howard article, is that it locks a lot of people out. Reading some of the recent words from the reverting editor, it looks like he believes it's best if I'm (and others) are locked out. He appears to believe that such reverting is within Wikipedia rules. OiC, some of your recent comments appear to me to reinforce the belief that it's within Wiki rules. the way I read it, there are no rules to back up such behaviour. The BLP excuse which was given barely provides a fig leaf to hide behind. So quite a number of people are currently locked out of the John Howard article, not because of a ban or an official hearing into the matter, but purely because a small number (in fact, mainly one) editor is hostile towards them and reverts them. A revert is not a compromise, it's all or nothing. It therefore destroys consensus. This is why tensions build up and explode. Is my take on this incorrect? What then is the answer? Should all those "locked out" editors turn around and walk away? If we ignore the current dysfunction on JH related pages, it's going to get worse.--'''[[User:Lester|<span style="color:green">Lester</span>]]''' 23:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC) |
::::The trouble with the current mode-of-behaviour at the John Howard article, is that it locks a lot of people out. Reading some of the recent words from the reverting editor, it looks like he believes it's best if I'm (and others) are locked out. He appears to believe that such reverting is within Wikipedia rules. OiC, some of your recent comments appear to me to reinforce the belief that it's within Wiki rules. the way I read it, there are no rules to back up such behaviour. The BLP excuse which was given barely provides a fig leaf to hide behind. So quite a number of people are currently locked out of the John Howard article, not because of a ban or an official hearing into the matter, but purely because a small number (in fact, mainly one) editor is hostile towards them and reverts them. A revert is not a compromise, it's all or nothing. It therefore destroys consensus. This is why tensions build up and explode. Is my take on this incorrect? What then is the answer? Should all those "locked out" editors turn around and walk away? If we ignore the current dysfunction on JH related pages, it's going to get worse.--'''[[User:Lester|<span style="color:green">Lester</span>]]''' 23:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:I don't have time to comment extensively at the moment, but I believe Lester's comments have much value and veracity. I have been completely discouraged from participating in certain articles because of constant reverting and the reluctance of the community to enforce the guidelines and policies regarding reverting. I note that the [[David Hicks]] article has stagnated over the last few months and it is of a very poor standard, several of the basic facts are not stated explicitly and must be inferred by the reader from convoluted prose; the narrative is buried by a very poor article structure. I agree that the subject is a difficult one, but collaborative editing of the article is effectively prohibited by the behaviour of some users. |
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:I haven't attempted to contribute for several months because I see as completely pointless to participate in endless circular discussions that effectively mean that article content is developed by a process of attrition rather than consensus. Indeed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Howard&diff=192888697&oldid=192888232 Skyring actually boasts about his apparent succesful attrition of other editors]. While a I may yet return to attempting to edit some of these articles, basically, as Lester says, I feel that the consensus process is almost completely dysfunctional in certain situations. [[User:Wm|Wm]] ([[User talk:Wm|talk]]) 01:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 01:43, 14 August 2008
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Due to the announcement of the Western Australian election, and offline business related to studies, family commitments, etc, I am restricting all Wikipedia activities for the month of August to Western Australian politics. I will only be able to participate in other debates and issues as time permits. Orderinchaos 05:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Thankyou from Kambalda West!Thanks for your input and suggestions. I am going to concentrate on teaching how to encode and reference properly before I get carried away on the Kambalda page (baby steps!) I was just wondering, as a teacher, is there a good way of avoiding blatant plagarism (in the context of a high school)? I just know they're all going to try to just cut and paste stuff from other sites... I don't mean to invade your privacy, but I am very curious as to who you are and how you became a Wiki administrator. I am a second year teacher myself, but to be honest there aren't many other teachers around here who do this sort of thing. Perhaps you should be running PD's??? I would come! -I have just read your userpage and I have to say I am surprised at how much we have in common! Once again, keep up your great work, you seem like a very valuable person to know! Dan C —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kambaldawdhs (talk • contribs) 13:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Kambalda West DHS deletionThankyou for for explaining the deletion of my subpages in a way which was much less rude than the other guy. I will keep my page names anonymous from now on. I probably will encourage students to create their own usernames, but as I am just beginning to teach this to them, I felt that I would have a tighter reign on things by starting work on a single user profile. From the terseness of Gnangarra's message, I am unsure about whether students' practice pages count as acceptable use. Are they? I was planning to produce the kambalda article, that is why I have signed up. Thanks for the Bridgetown link, I will check it out. Did you use local publications as references? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kambaldawdhs (talk • contribs) 14:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC) NedlandsHey, great job on the rewrite. Seems like there's a bit of a gap in the history, though: would be interesting to know the story of the independent that served between Keenan and the elder Court. Any chance that you could expand that a bit? Rebecca (talk) 11:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Your opinion at Talk:Western Australian state election, 2008 is most welcomeTimeshift (talk) 05:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC) Block of anon IPYour block of User talk:203.122.240.136 "for edit warring" seems a bit heavy handed since s/he wasn't given a prior warning. Peter Ballard (talk) 07:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding John Howard talk pageDear Orderinchaos, I noticed that you mentioned about a questionable history about some editors in the AN. I was not sure whom you were referring to. If you were referring to me, I would like to have a copy of that history myself. I do not entertain vague language which might intend to implicate me and discredit my presence here. I feel that especially because I stumbled onto John Howard article recently. I just thought I would clear things up and would expect a solid answer from you. Thanks. DockuHi 16:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Misrepresentation of my positionI notice that you have misrepresented me in the Administrator noticeboard here and here. For the record, you yourself have agreed that it does not violate BLP. See it here. Did it even occur to you that I may even agree with you on some other policy concerns. What you didnt do was discuss with me about the policy concerns. Without having had the time to do that, you rather chose to misrepresent my position all over. Now, as an administrator I should not have had to remind you that consensus could change. Reading How consensus emerges during the editing process section in WP:Consensus may be a good start (if you have forgotten this). I am willing to discuss with you about the policies WP:BLP, WP:UNDUE, WP:RS, WP:SYN and WP:FRINGE or any other policy you want to discuss related to the content. Therefore, without involving in a discussion with me and without really knowing what my real opinions and positions of these policies in relation to the disputed content are, I would strongly discourage you from badmouthing and misrepresenting my position all over wikipedia. Instead of doing all of the above (may be you are restricted in time by your wikibreak due to personal problems), accusing me of wikilawyering and gaming the system is not what is expected of an administrator. So, let me make it clear to you, if you are ready to talk to me about wikipedia policies, engage me here or in my talk page (therefore you will ahve a chance to know where I stand on wikipedia policies in relation to the disputed content), or if you dont have time (which I absolutely understand) stop badmouthing about me and start acting like an administrator. DockuHi 17:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Deletion review for Image:DunstanAndRann.jpgA deletion review of Image:DunstanAndRann.jpg has been requested. Since you were involved in the IfD for it, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 09:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC) ExtraDryIs there any way to check? Their MOs are very similar. JRG (talk) 07:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC) re your commetn at usertalk Sarah
In response, (1) there is no way I am implying a breach of policy on the part of Sarah. I am rather surprised that you in this instance take the view that One party got blocked, the other didn't. Yes, the other's behaviour was not behaviour to be encouraged. When you criticised me for reporting what was a clear breach - no policy was breached in that report or by the blocking admin - how does your response reconcile? (I think you criticised me and I am not going to go and try and find the diff - if I have this wrong apologies but your comment to Skyring, Skyring's RfC , Gnangarra's endorsement, your partial endorsement, comments you have made since, ... lead me to think that you criticised me on this without searching for your exact words) . (1a) - probably belongs on Sarah's page but ... She saidI disagree it is silly to report sepearately on 3RR and act from that page, firstly the format of the report provides for the provision of diffs and the structure of the report ensures, warnings have been given, allows for easy checking of history and so on. It also provides (often) for a response by the reported party due to timing issues. At that point MMN could have made his plea that he had in the meantime added a source - I think that changes it slightly from his reversion of you. Not entirely ... and I agree he was very very unwise (and unhelpful) to persist in reverting and the block was not a breach of policy. (1b) Given that Skyring has gone on and on about my edit warring for less reversions than he did in this instance ... Gnangarra has endorsed his views formally ... well you knew I was bitter and twisted. (1c) Sarah said It was reported to RPP so of course there was reason for administrators to be aware. - they wouldn't be following up on a RPP that has been dealt with - in dealing with it [1] she marked it as protected; did not report other actions she had taken in relation to the report. The report was moved to completed by a bot some hours later without further comment [2] - why would another admin revisit to follow up say on the other edit warring party being blocked too? I can't see it would even be appropriate. (1d) I note in passing that Sarah does not it seem normally action such reports (this is the only edit she has made in the last 1000 diffs to the page). By actioning a report when she doesn't normally action such reports, she interfered with other uninvolved (really uninvolved) admins reviewing the situation. (2) OTRS and you don't see the problem - Sarah saidMy reply was I would be absolutely appalled that you could consider violating OTRS and I would suggest that even mentioning that there may be a Wikipedia:OTRS case or cases is in fact improper. I don't know what she is referring to. If she is referring to the fact that I have written to OTRS and had no reply - as you said - that is no secretand I don't know then why she is mentioning it - how it fits into the context - since it doesn't I have assumed that she means something else - what not sure. Perhaps she will explain - it makes no sense to me right now. My OTRS request both by email subject header and from my email address (not least as it is complete with dot au suffix) would have been obvious to any Australian OTRS volunteer. (2a) She thinks I have a unique definition of uninvolved but perhaps she needs to explain point 1d above. I seriously think this exercise would benfit from uninvolved admins - this does not mean I am trying to change what uninvolved means often and ordinarily but some srious distance and review would help. No off-wiki chat ... That being said when on finally does get an uninvolved admin - they confuse me and MickMacNamee (see his talk page) :-( !!! (2b) Meta:Rule of diminishing replies may be the answer to waht Sarah was referring to - I don't know. I don't think it is the answer for me in my view of me right now as must be apparent. (3) With ref to I'm not entirely sure to this point what went wrong. I think some thoroughly silly things have been done and said by several parties (and I do not exclude myself from this), it's probably coming a time soon where we should draw a line under it and move on Motwithstanding 2b - drawing a line is not working for me - I am upset and angry and stressed. I am sick of the unacknowledged by the community personal attacks - not just at me but at others - and not just by Skyring but by others including you. I am sick of the apparent collusion (apparent by occasional reference to off-wiki conversations plus actual actions) whereby some are acting together and against others which includes not just me. You yourself have inferred that editors are working together, are sockpuppets, are ... it goes on and on. Drawing the line and never saying sorry is ... in my view not appropriate - saying sorry might help but do you know what you are sorry for? I think I have said sory for everything (that I mean to) but it doesn't seem to satisfy anyone - they go on and on and on. So therefore they thinkg I have done wrong in some way - as per the RfC - which in my view was just a personal attack and not in line with RfC guidelines ... Signing off now - yes I feel as though I am ranting - but you asked and hence my reply. --Matilda talk 07:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Electorate namesIn general I think renamed electorates ought to have a new page. See for instance, Darwin/Braddon, Wilmot/Lyons, Balaclava/Goldstein. --Bush shep (talk) 16:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Encylopedia for the peopleHello OiC. I come to ponder the purpose of Wikipedia. An encyclopaedia edited by the people, for the people? A place where the weight of community opinion rules over the individual. Therefore, the people get the encyclopaedia that they want (or deserve!), with content shaped by the will of the masses, for better or for worse. The failings of this method have been well documented, and have enabled traditional encyclopaedias to survive, as well as newcomers like Google's Knol, which is apparently only written by people knowledgeable in their field. A few days ago you posted a comment stating that one day you hope to be a University lecturer in politics. Your political knowledge must be extensive, which would possibly qualify you to also submit articles for Knol (as well as Wikipedia). My point is that Wikipedia remains the publication of the people, with all the advantages and disadvantages that it entails, while Knol and others are searching for a higher ground. If the masses and rabble participating in Wikipedia want articles about Lindsay Lohan's latest girlfriend and Kevin Rudd's ear wax, then that's the encyclopaedia they get, even if you or I regard those events as trivia. Which brings me to the subject of recent reverting of the John Howard article by a particular editor, his continuing practice of deleting referenced information, and your support of those events, and other events surrounding the same editor. It is my opinion that this practice of reverting referenced content immediately after it was added, and "atmospheres" on talk pages, are inhibiting community participation in Wikipedia. We can debate whether or not it makes Wikipedia a better encylopaedia or not, but that's basically irrelevant if it inhibits community participation in the project. We have to accept the concept that the community gets the encyclopaedia they deserve, and that community participation is the #1 most important factor. We don't always get a result that we think ourselves to be for the better. Our goals for a higher calibre product may be thwarted due to participation by the wider community, but that's how it goes. It saddens me that the particular editor who is well known for reverting referenced content gets admin support for continuing these actions. It's sad mostly because it's not in that editor's best interests. It's like taking the editor by the hand, saying "come with me", and leading him to a place where there is a probability that he will end up in trouble (with the Wikipedia community and policies). That's because the practice of continually reverting like that can be described as tendentious editing. Support for tendentious editing is not in anyone's interests, and particularly not in the interests of the involved editor, as it will inevitably end up with bans or penalties down the line (as it has in the past). The alternative is community dispute resolution processes, instead of reverting. The community dispute resolution process may or may not produce a better encyclopaedia, but that's the only alternative we have. To do otherwise would be contrary to the goals of Wikipedia. I hope you take this as a friendly note, and I compliment you on your contributions to Wikipedia. Cheers, --Lester 04:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
ErmMethinks there's something odd up at Electoral district of Cottesloe, unless it somehow made electoral history in 2005 by being the only electorate to have a different Labor candidate in the 2PP count than the one who actually ran in the election.... :P Rebecca (talk) 08:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
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