Talk:Femme fatale

Kunoichi as Femme Fatale?

I suggest that this be removed or clarified since the main basis for this idea is the Japanese pornographic video series "kunoichi" and perhaps some anime. The traditional understanding of kunoichi is simply a female ninja.

Rethinking the meaning of the Femme Fatale archetype

Before anyone comes and revamps my entry please think for a moment. Being a big follower of literature and various other media, I believe the definition of the Femme Fatale is much more complicated than just "A murdurous, sexual woman." This may have been the literal meaning of the phrase at first but I believe in our modern culture the archtype stands for many more things than just that.

I included the debate on Lilith...as I think she's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Lilith is one of the most basic examples of a Femme Fatale, and many for years thought of her as pure evil. Why is that exactly though? Is it because she was truly evil or simply because she merely wanted to go her own way? The text on Lilith quite obviously states that the reason Lilith was damned to hell and demonhood was because she wished for equality to Adam...and she was denied it and seen as a traitor to God and heaven for it. I think personally this is a barbaric view but I disgress.

Many so called Femme Fatale characters in history are arguably not venomous or evil, just simply out for their own purposes most of the time. The main character of the film Mulan Rouge is often stated to be a Femme Fatale, yet she wasn't an evil character. She had immoral tendancies but in the end, all she wanted was her dream. Mystique in the X-Men comic books is an excellent example of a modern Femme Fatale, but she's not evil. The comic never insinuates that she's evil...she's just been betrayed so much and shown extreme prejudice to that she's eventually become the woman she is currently. Its not hard to understand why.

I believe while it is important to explain what Femme Fatale means, I think the difference between a good Wikipedia article and just a plain mediocre entry is briefly but surely delving into some of the complications and social perspectives that go into the word as well. While it may be much to say a woman is a Femme Fatale just because she's sexual...there are a lot of female characters many consider Femme Fatales that cross a lot of the lines.

Changes to my entry and the whole entry in general are welcome, but I strongly urge future posters to put a little more thought and meat onto the article than just flat out erasing my entry and keeping it bare bones minimum. This entry needs attention for a reason, it needs more information! Everyone knows what a Femme Fatale is...but whats its relevance in history? What are the complications and exceptions that go with it? Thats what Wikipedia is really about.

So please...don't just erase it without any contribution of your own. Think about it for a moment...--Kiyosuki 06:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Mystique really is quite evil. I think that evil can be (lazily) defined as willing to do anything, with no regard to others, for your own comfort or power. Mystique fits that to a T (a phrase i have never understood, maybe its tea) WookMuff 31/01/06

Why is evil the main defining characteristic. Femme fatales historically in art are not always evil. They are women with a sexual nature, but there isn't always a malicious intent present, it is often more submissive. Do your research.

The Time of the term's creation

Hey does anyone know when the term femme fatale was coined? 19th century France maybe? Grice 00:24, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• OED suggests it was first used in the English language in the 1920s. I know, not very helpful, but I tried. --Fastfission 03:57, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• The Concise Oxford English Dictionary says 'ORIGIN early 20th cent.: Fr., lit. ‘disastrous woman’.' Don't know if that's any help --drak2 10:14, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• For a long time the phrase's meaning in the French language has been clear: a fatal woman, i.e. a woman it is dangerous to love, whether the reason be a jealous lover, her own evil, her political situation (daughter of a powerful/rich family or having personal political power), or combination thereof. In the opera Carmen, for instance, Carmen betrays Don José to escape the punishment for attacking her coworker, but the murder Don José commits does not avenge Carmen's wrong but feeds his own evil jealousy. In the original book by Merimée (not the opera), Don José kills a jealous senior officer while Carmen looks on, and later kills her husband and Carmen herself, having arranged a mass for the dying beforehand. The use of the term in English, for most of the female anti-heroes described here, is consistent with the meaning of the French term as just described. For modern-day female sociopaths who use their sexuality as weapons, French tend to borrow the Italian term diva (a variant of goddess in that language), although that term is very recent, about 1920. Modus Vivendi 05:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

questionable entries

Maye West and Jessica Rabbitt are not really femme fatales. They are sexual, but are they evil or murderous? Nope, pure of heart. I'm going to remove them.

First, please sign your posts. Second, a femme fatale does not have to be evil. In many instances, most notably in Gilda and Chinatown, the femme fatale only appears to be conniving. The manner in which she uses seduction is really the kicker - she is the catalyst that pulls the male character into the plot. However, I do agree that some of these entries are questionable at best (e.g. Poison Ivy? Come on, why not include Cruel Intentions then?). There are a lot of lolita films that do not employ "femme fatale" characters. - IstvanWolf 03:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

As the article says: A femme fatale is a nexus of evil, whether it be her own, that of a lover, of a third party, or some combination thereof varies, but generally arises when a woman's traditional role as subservient lover comes into conflict with other goals. Thus, a completely moral woman may be a femme fatale, but this not how her lover(s) see it because they are blinded by their own goals. To emphasize this point, it would be useful to remove some of the earlier text such as "typically villainous". Modus Vivendi 11:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning, then, that the term is often used now with a connotation of a woman so beautiful - and so stylised in her beauty - that she can corrupt men or make them incapable of judgment, without herself being corrupt? Faye Dunaway in Chinatown, Jessica Rabbit, Lauren Bacall in The Big Sleep - they're all considered "femme fatale" characters, but none of them are actually morally bankrupt. Maybe it's even worth saying that the term is now associated with a certain image, rather than character. Smoky eyes and red lipstick carry the association, even if the character herself is morally good. Now, enough of that rambling. Any thoughts? 86.40.222.10 13:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleopatra

Was Cleopatra a villain who ensnared the hapless hero? I can imagine she was portrayd as such in a couple of movies, but that doesn't justify that the historical person should be labelled as such. The article Cleopatra VII of Egypt doesn't give support for her femme fatale-ness either. I remove her. / Habj 01:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Seems like more literary examples are needed, like Mallarme's Herodiade and the Salome found in Dario's poem. Salome was a major figure in French literature throughout the 19th C. (See The New History of French Literature, edited by Denis Holier).

On the English side, De Qunicey's Our Ladies of the Sorrows provide a complicated example.

See also Margaret Atwoods superb novel "The Robber Bride" for modern day depiction of a femme fatale.

Dominique Francon

I've eliminated Dominique Francon (from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead) from the list for several reasons: she is good, not villainous; she does not have "insatiable" sexual desire; she does not "ensnare a hapless hero." In short, she doesn't meet the criteria at all. LaszloWalrus 09:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Reworking the introduction

I'm going to rework the introduction; it seems a bit POV to me. ("malign power of sexuality"?) ChrisWinter 23:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Lilith

A big point of debate is the subject of Lilith, the mythological first wife of Adam before Eve. In most texts depicting Lilith, many point out that her only real crime against Adam and God was voicing her own opinion. She is sentenced to hell, and God creates a new woman for Adam in the form of Eve.

This part of the article needs a citation. There is little consensus as to where the Lilith myth comes from; many archaeologists and scholars of ancient mythology believe it to be a post hoc interpretation of a different myth, an example of syncretism, or the consequence of a mistranslation.

--Citation-- The above appears to be opinion Lilith is a Old Testement pre christianity character that is partially written out of Hebrew versions of the book of Genesis, post Christianity's middle age rise. Sumerian myths related to a Litith are about the same time as original Hebrew & Arameic texts. The main difference is that the Sumerian texts are unedited as the civilization changes and dies off prior to the western rise of Judaism and then Christianity both of which go through significant internal politcal changes during the periods from 100BC to 1800AD. Judaism goes through major repression during the 1000 to 1600 period and many changes are made to Judaic texts during the repression, by the now overwhelmingly Christian, European cultures. Witcombe [1] clearly references such changes and those text are a direct reference to Old Testatment inclusion of Lilith and the subsequent removal. Lilith's place in the bible changes as the need to highlight one figure (i.e. Mary via the Cult of the Virgin Mary) and other figures are marginalized or even removed to promote other figures. I have removed the verification and included external link to the verification. If you disagree feel free to remove the external link but please cite contrary sources that Lilith was added post hoc to biblical references.--Ffocuser 17:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

More on the intro

I think the unreferenced politically correct handwringing in the intro is a bit POV. I don't think a wikipedia article is the right place for moralising about whether a concept is PC or not. Colin4C 12:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC):

A femme fatale is thus a source of disruption: this generally arises when her actions put her in conflict with woman's traditional role as subservient to the males in her life. For this reason a modern feminist woman may regard a so-called femme fatale in movies or fiction in ways quite different than her male companions do. Consider the feminist view of the options faced by a woman who wields power that is not inherent, if she marries:

Her husband's love may not be honest: his true goal may be to possess that power.

Even if initially honest, he may change as the relationship develops. This might occur because of some character flaw in him, or through pressure from his family or friends.

A woman of power, therefore, needs to proceed carefully into romance. Since she typically surrenders much of her personal political and financial power to the marriage, she has reason to establish a fallback position. This can be done by withholding resources, perhaps by keeping a separate bank account. Tragedy can ensue, however, if she chooses to counterbalance her husband's traditional assets of wealth and powerful connections with the femme fatale's assets. Then, as happens in some film noir, she runs the risk of destroying their relationship and even her husband and herself. The extreme of this sympathetic version of the femme fatale would be a woman who was defrauded of everything by her husband, forced to survive by crime or prostitution.

Sometimes, a fictional femme fatale is simply a malignant villain who emotionally enslaves her partners for her enjoyment, since not all stock characters have layer upon layer of nuance. The men in these stories normally bring such a villainess down by the end.

Cleanup

This article is absolutely terrible. It is full of original research and speculation, and makes no attempt to act as an informed or structured introduction to the topic. It reads like an essay, and a poorly-referenced essay at that - the sort of thing a high-school student might cobble together from Google at the last minute. I have tried to clean up its tone a bit but there isn't much that can be done without adding a lot more in terms of decent academic or published sources to back up some of these claims. It would be a good idea for anyone thinking of contributing to this article to have a skim of WP:NOT#OR and WP:NOR. -- TinaSparkle 12:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are probably right Tina. What I'm wondering is whether the femme fatale is a literary construct or whether she really exists. Is the literary archetype based on misogynist male fantasy or on real women? And does the femme fatale only exist in the consciousness of men or are women also affected by her charms? Colin4C 20:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Keats addresses this issue in one of his poems La Belle Dame sans Merci: A Ballad. He is ambiguous enough in the poem that it is not clear whether the woman he met was really a femme fatale, or whether he just sees her as one. Also, as the theme progressed in literature, it changed a little. Especially after/during WWI, poets started writing about women as talking men into going to war, and thus to their deaths (Siegfried Sassoon's Glory of Women and Yeats' No Second Troy). In other words, different ages use the theme in different ways.

I, personally, don't think this article has OR problems (maybe it's changed since I got here), just in-line citation problems. I guess we just need to find the sources for the statements in the ref section at the bottom, or elsewhere. Wrad 03:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have provided some refs Colin4C 19:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Carmen

I would say Carmen fits the description almost perfectly. 24.226.77.23 (talk) 05:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)