Talk:List of English words without rhymes

Words removed from or restored to the article
(Please add any words you remove to this list)

Word	Rhyme	Notes	Why not a rhyme
aggry	braggry		this is 'braggery'
alterity	parity dexterity, posterity, etc.	rhyme per OED (vowel of parity was wrong)
angry	hangry (neologism), nangry		these both contain 'angry': a blend and a misparsing
animal	disanimal		this is the same word
beards (pl)	Weirds (Fates)	rhyme per OED
blacksmith	jacksmith	rhymes per OED (also, we're not compiling compound words, which would number in the thousands)
bulb	culb, culbe	presumed rhyme, added to 'obscure'
bulbous	? culbous (non-OED)		no evidence that this is a word
canine	ranine	rhyme per OED
celebrity	tenebrity	rhyme per OED
chaos	naos	rhymes per OED
circle	hurkle, opercle	rhyme per OED
condom	quondam	modern pronunciation is a rhyme	OED pronunciation was still /ˈkɒndɒm/
crayon	rayon	rhymes per OED, though both have alt. pronunciations
denizen	venison	rhymes per OED	does not rhyme in GA
different	odoriferent, proliferent, vociferent	rhyme per OED
eighth	weighth		likely /eitθ/ vs. /eiθ/
elbow	beelbow		this is the same word
experiment	merriment	rhyme per OED
flange	gange (protect fishhook w a wire)	rhymes per OED
galaxy	agalaxy		no, stress is wrong
gulf	begulf, bloodulf, disgulf, engulf, ingulf		these are the same word, except for bloodulf, which per Webster's 1913 has the wrong stress (Blood"ulf /ˈblʊdəlf/)
golf	rolf	rhymes per OED
heighth	dryth (drought), myth (old pronunciation), rithe (a brooklet), etc.	rhyme in RP (/-aiθ/) per OED	None of these rhyme in GA, where heighth is /haitθ/
homograph	nomograph	rhyme per OED
hostage (short o)	costage	presumed pronunciation only	?
hyphenate	asiphonate	per OED (presumably also siphonate)
jejune	moon etc etc etc.	per OED
lairds (pl)	cairds (tinkers), brairds (first shoots of grass)	rhyme per OED
Lisbon	Brisbane	per OED & Wiki pronunciation
matrix	administratrix etc.	dozens per OED
month	? hunth (abbrev. for 100 thousandth)	no evidence this is a word, but there is (n + 1)th. (holimonth, twelvemonth, & mid-month, besides containing the word, have the wrong stress pattern)
mouth (verb), mouths (noun)	south (verb) (-/auθ/ or -/auð/)	the verb mouth & the plural noun are hard to rhyme, but covered by the 2ary pron. of the verb south per dict.com
music	anchusic	(obscure) rhymes per OED
of	sov, Sov, rav	rhyme per OED (& sovs, ravs rhyme)
orange	borange	already have some words, but this supposed Aussie slang is not confirmed. one alleged use = the brown-orange skin color white people get from using too much fake-tan lotion. as a possible blend with orange, it wouldn't count anyway.
pedant	quadrupedant	obscure (means 'horse' etc.)
pint	rynt, rhint, bint(?), behint (Robert Burns: The Cooper O' Cuddy)	rynt = rhint; not 'bint'; behint not RP
pizza	Tietze	as in Tietze's syndrome. Rhymes per OED.
plankton	Yankton	(the Yankton nation, town). rhymes per dictionary.com
poet	introït (antiphon in Mass)	w/ diaeresis, rhymes per OED. also numerous phrases: know it, show it, etc.
porringer	oranger	rare; usually "orangest" but "more orange" ("more orange than the orangest orange")	?
postage	hostage (long o)	presumed pronunciation only	?
promise	Comice, phlomis	as in Comice pear. both rhyme per OED
reptile	septile	rhymes per OED
rhythm	algorithm, logarithm		no, stress is wrong
sculpt	gulped	also 'pulped' in OED
shadow	laddo	(as in "lad") rhymes per OED. also, for some, dorado (a fish)
sowths, -ed a tune, souths, -ed (verb) /auθs, auθt/			sowth and south are identical rhymes, and so count as unrhymed. bad-mouthed etc. have the wrong stress. Scouth and routh do not seem to have plural forms. Plural of drouth (= drought) possible but unattested.
spatula	Terebratula (brachiopod)	rhymes per OED
tenth	nth	pronounced "enth", clearly attestible
tufts (pl)	yufts (pl)	tuft rhymes w yuft, a kind of Russian leather, per OED; attested in pl.
valve	salve	rhymes per OED
wasp	knosp (knob ornament)	rhymes per OED
widow	kiddo
width	sidth	rhymes per OED (obscure)
window	Indo, pindo (palm)
zonary	donary, nonary, stonery	rhyme per OED

english

Isn't this page titled "List of ENGLISH words without rhymes"? Why do people insist on trying to use words from other languages to rhyme these unrhymable words? Also, should slang that is not part of majority use be counted? Or, for that matter, made up "words" like names and such? If I say that glorange is a word I often use to mean "something made up" or that my parents named my sister Murple, that doesn't mean that these now become a part of the common contemporary English language and therefore orange and purple are now no longer rhymeless. This is why we have to stick to mainstream, scholarly accepted English language dictionaries for official word lists.

Of (has no rhyme in British English)?

...rhymes with POV. Annatto (talk) 00:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

How do they pronounce 'of' in British English? I'm guessing it isn't ovee as Annatto's comment seems to be suggesting. o_O --user.lain (talk) 19:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Dialectal differences

It should be noted that a lot of the disputes mentioned below are due to different varieties of English. In my variety, that of North East England, /gulf/ and /wulf/ rhyme, whereas there is no rhyme between /luv/ and /ov/. I think people should be aware of this when editing, and perhaps it might be useful to specify the dialect being discussed. Also, it might be useful to reflect this on the main page as is done for 'of'. Panda (talk) 11:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Citizen and Music

How about these two? I can't find rhymes for them. Are they okay to add? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samy Merchi (talk • contribs) 20:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Citizen rhymes with Men. Music rhymes with medic

Citizen rhymes with denizen, and they're both on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annatto (talk • contribs) 00:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The stress on both citizen and denizen is on the first of their three syllables, so for a perfect rhyme they would need the first vowel sound to rhyme as well. The same principle applies to music. maxsch (talk) 16:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Silver

Does "silver" have any rhymes? Can I add it? Dylanga 03:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC) Wait: I just read the rest of the article and had my question answered... never mind.

Silver rhymes with shiver, sliver, liver, never or anything else with "er"

see definition of rhyme, sil is the stressed syllable, therefore the sounds il-ver must be repeated for it to be a true rhyme and not just a slant rhyme. maxsch (talk) 19:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

To find a rhyme for "silver"

Or any "rhymeless" rhyme

Requires only will, ver-

bosity, and time. - Stephen Sondheim.

Purple

Purple does in fact have a rhyme, Hirple, ref: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561509841/hirple.html I'll leave it to somone else to validate this and update the main page.

I've also read a poem which was specifically written to spite the purple-naysayers, where it was rhymed with "burp'll" (contraction of "burp will"). But I don't recall where I read this.

Burp'll is not strictly one word, so it doesn't count :) SGGH ^speak! 22:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Purple rhymes with people.

What about empurple? It's mentioned by Merriam Webster's Rhyming Dictionary. -- 213.6.22.41 (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Purple rhymes with qurple.

Rhythm

OK... Rhythm rhymes with, among other words "algorithm" and "logarithm". Empty rhymes with "kempty," meaning 'rough hair or wool' (random but true). In the article, it is mentioned that orange rhymes with "sporange," and purple with "curple" or "hirple."

So rhythm, empty, orange and purple have been removed from the list.

Red Tim 22:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Rhythm = hynm (like a song) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.197.197.16 (talk) 08:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Different, Valve, and Luggage

Different rhymes with Coherent; Valve rhymes with Halve; Luggage rhymes with Baggage.

Am I wrong, or does the article really need some corrections in that field? :)

if 'different' rhymes with 'coherent' it rhymes with 'parent' too, so we must be careful of how subjective and/or fussy we are/aren't being. that said there are several more on that list that do actually rhyme with other words. oh and sign you name next time ;) Motorbyclist 11:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd be very interested to hear what sort of pronunciation you're using to get those words to rhyme. ;) Hengler 00:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

One of the main impediments to rhyming with Luggage etc, is the insistence on rhyming from the last stressed syllable, so you also need to match the 'ug' sound in luggage, not just the last syllable. It is a silly rule and thus probably a silly page, but that is the 'strict' definition of rhyme. maxsch 20:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Just maybe

What about:

Mytle the Purple turtle did hurtle down the hill

?? 210.10.123.98 23:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

---

I believe that those are slant rhymes on purple.

74.32.63.250 01:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC) Some random dude

Monster/Mobster

Doesn't the word "mobster" rhyme with "monster?" Or is "mobster" considered slang? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.70.242.196 (talk) 21:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

Uh, no. 82.93.10.238 22:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Similarly, wouldn't ninja rhyme with Jah (the rastafari term for god)? Because Jah, is religious and not slang. I know it's a pronunciation of yahweh, a hebrew word, but then, isn't ninja also a foreign word?

Duck?!

Why is duck on this list? Does not duck rhyme with buck, cluck, f***, luck, muck, puck, suck, stuck, struck, tuck, truck, and yuck? And probably with a list that long, a whole lot of other things too? 68.251.149.101 16:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Wasp

If you are British, "wasp" rhymes with "clasp". --71.205.166.118 13:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed.

Maybe in some parts of Britain. I'm from Liverpool and to me those two words don't sound remotely similar.

I have never ever heard anyone pronounce those words the same. It is "wosp" and "clahsp" SGGH ^speak! 22:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Chimney

Flimsy? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.54.53.81 (talk) 02:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Rhumney, in Wales (Welsh short u ~= English i). 212.137.63.86 (talk) 13:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"olive - rhymes with door hinge"

Consider it edited...

Somestrangeflea 18:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Does Anything Rhyme with piano

The rhyme finder doesn't seem to think so. (Unless Indiana rhymes with piano)

Soprano rhymes with piano. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.192.237.142 (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Soprano, serrano, kanno, anno, etc. As the emphasis is on the 'a-no' full rymes do not require the 'i.' If the O is pronounced like a short a there are about a billion bajillion rhymes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.191.201.148 (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Hostage

Kind of new to the site, trying to figure out how to work things...

dosen't postage rhyme with hostage?

Not in any dialect I've ever heard. Postage has an o like crow whilst hostages o is as in hot(86.31.187.245 (talk) 23:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC))

Purple

Shouldn't cirle be listed as a half rhyme for purple? SGGH ^speak! 22:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

how about "thirsty"? the closest i can think of is "firstly"

Parmesan

How about parmesan or muenster? Do they count as rhymeless words

Pint

I was blogging about rhymes for pint (http://www.dictionaryevangelist.com/2007/09/poets-rejoice-maybe.html) and came here to edit this page; not sure if I should link to my post as a reference, or if I should cite the OED's page for rynt as a source (seeing as how it's a subscription-only resource). Esperluette 23:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

iron rhymes with siren

can anyone edit this for me? thanks (iron rhymes with siren) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.210.39.55 (talk) 19:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's different: EYE-urn and SIGH-rehn. AkvoD3 14:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Orange?

(Nothing Rhymes with Orange) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.210.39.55 (talk) 22:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

um, yup, it's in the list.maxsch 05:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I think 'challenge,' 'lozenge,' and 'scavenge' all rhyme with orange.

And really you would have to pronounce door hinge, door henge or orange, oringe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.10.75 (talk) 20:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

70.65.34.148 (talk) 01:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Chocolate

What about 'percolate'? Does that fit as rhyming? Just wondering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.201.44.249 (talk) 00:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary vs. Wikipedia?

I think the links should be links to Wiktionary and not Wikipedia. But that's just me. AkvoD3 17:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. maxsch 20:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I looked into doing this, and it is not that hard, almond does the trick. So I am wondering now, is it done? The content of this page has no relationship to the wikipedia article on almonds, so wiktionary seems to me to makes more sense. Would anyone object to changing the links to wiktionary links? maxsch 17:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

words removed from the list because they actually do have rhymes

So please don't put these ones back, and if you take others out of the list, put them here so others can check and not be tempted to put in words that do have rhymes they just haven't thought of: Ones I've removed don't include two word rhymes like "door hinge" for "orange" (still dubious), rhymes with dialect or overly obscure words (pint with rynt), or slant rhymes like "siren" for "iron". This is just a list of words that actually have rhymes that once were erroneously in the list of words without. maxsch 03:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

• science (rhymes with compliance)
• dunce (rhymes with "once")
• month (rhymes with "millionth")
• crayon (rhymes with "rayon")
• rhythm (rhymes with "algorithm" and "logarith")
• sculpt (rhymes with "gulped")maxsch 19:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
• alterity (rhymes with "parity") maxsch (talk) 02:32, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
• valve (rhymes with "salve") maxsch (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Also:

• cannabis (rhymes with "abacus") 134.173.94.225 (talk) 04:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, sorry, cannabis does not rhyme with abacus, or even succubus. maxsch (talk) 18:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Cannabis doesn't rhyme with abacus and I also don't agree that month rhymes with millionth or that valve rhymes with salve. --user.lain (talk) 19:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't "golf" rhyme with "wolf"? Seems that way to me. I'm somewhat new at this, so I didn't just want to change it. Marfotic (talk) 19:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)Marfotic

I think this is another example of rhymes being different in different accents. Perhaps a note is in order. In American English the two words don't rhyme: golf has a vowel sound like the a in "tall" and wolf's is more like the u in "pull". But there may well be accents in which they rhyme. maxsch (talk) 08:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

orange - lozenge?

Is this not a perfect rhyme? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.168.127.10 (talk) 19:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not. Nor is cringe or hinge a rhyme for orange. The stress is on the "o" in orange, so for a rhyme to be perfect it would have to start rhyming from there and 'lahz' doesn't rhyme with 'oar'. maxsch 22:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

how bout seringe or la' range —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.197.197.16 (talk) 08:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Some of the stuff on here

I'm not going to go into the main article to make edits (well actually maybe), but some of what people have said in the discussion is quite bizarre to me. Working down: in the English I speak, "citizen" does not rhyme with "men" because anything rhyming with "citizen" would have to end in "itizen" - the first syllable being the stressed one. "music" and "medic"? I wouldn't know where to start because I don't know how they could be thought to rhyme. "algorithm" and "logarithm" have the stress on the first syllable so do not rhyme with "rhythm". Never heard of "kempty".

"different" and "coherent" - can't see it at all. "valve" and "halve" - no. It's like "valv" and "hahv". I'm English by the way if this explains anything. "lugguage" and "baggage" - no. "mobster" and "monster" - what? "ninja" wouldn't rhyme with "Jah" anyway but would with "ginger". "olive" and "door hinge"? That's a joke. "soprano" and "piano" - no because it's prounounced "soprahno" and "piano". "postage" is like "poastage" whereas "hotage" isn't. "month" and millionth" - no because it's like "milli'nth". There's no "u" sound. Ands anyway the stress is on the first syllable so it's not even close.

And ones I haven't seen mentioned - I can't think of a rhyme for "of"? Anyone? Don't say "dove" or one of its rhymes! "ov" and "duv"! If you can have "twelfth" then why not "fifth" which is different from "fith"? "eighth". "tenth" and "length" maybe (which do not rhyme with each other). Also on the main page, why do "bachelor" and "spatula" only almost rhyme? "promise" and "Thomas" do not rhyme. There is an "i" sound in "promise" not found in "Thomas". Bejjer (talk) 21:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Bejjer

"length" and "strength" actually. Bejjer (talk) 21:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Bejjer

One-syllable words

I was thinking about this list, and it's quite clear that it's no feat whatsoever for a word with more than one syllable to have no rhyme. If someone put any effort into it, this list could get ridiculously long. I would suggest that there should be a page for words with just one syllable that have no rhyme. It's far more "impressive". Just looking at what I've written here - what rhymes with "syllable", "someone", "effort", or "ridiculously"? Apparently there's "billable" and "meticulously" but you get the point. There would be thousands of words with more than one syllable with no rhyme. It's only impressive for a word with one syllable - "of" being the King of them all (unless you can find a rhyme for it). Bejjer (talk) 21:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Bejjer

I agree with you to a point, but this isn't a page about feats, it's a page that lists English words with no rhymes. I would not argue against separating the list into words with no one-syllable rhymes and words with no two or three-syllable rhymes. I don't think it matters much how long the words are, I think the interesting thing is how many of the syllables need rhyming, i.e. where is the stressed syllable. And, lastly, doesn't "love" rhyme with "of"? maxsch (talk) 20:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

"love" doesn't rhyme with "of" in English English. "luv" versus "ov". I tend to agree with you about the stressed syllable. I think it would be worth having a page for words with the last syllable as the stressed syllable that have no rhyme - not just because it's a "feat" but because one page for words with no rhymes would just be ridiculously long if someone put any effort into it.Bejjer (talk) 19:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Chaos

Naos? 24.218.46.235 (talk) 02:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Purple

You guys are so dumb. I say we take Purple off the list. You guys have missed the most obvious rhyme there is: Nurple! C'mon people, isn't this supposed to be a good encyclopedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.88.247 (talk) 17:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Plankton

what about yankton in South Dakota

month

rhymes with hunth an abbreviation for 100 thousandth

plinth

synth as in synthsizer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.64.174 (talk) 05:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Who added Month back in?

On 01:45, 7 November 2006 an edit to the discussion page was made from 202.64.169.72, which edit removed the list of words that rhyme with month.

Even if one does not agree that the following words are perfect rhymes (they *do* meet the criterion):

billionth centillionth decillionth millionth nonillionth octillionth quadrillionth quintillionth septillionth sextillionth trillionth zillionth

Certainly these do: midmonth twelvemonth

Can we let this one lie, now?

Yet more rhymes for words 'without rhymes'

Here are more 'non-rhyming' words and their perfect rhymes. The rhyming words are from the Compact Edition of the OED unless noted. Most of these words also have rhymes with words that have the same base with a prefix. Some of these duplicate words given above.

Word	Rhymes
aggry	braggry
angry	hangry (neologism), nangry, (plus prefixes)
animal	disanimal
bulb	culb, culbe, (plus prefixes)
bulbous	culbous (non-OED)
chaos	naos
elbow	beelbow
galaxy	agalaxy
gulf	begulf, bloodulf, disgulf, engulf, ingulf
golf	rolf (non EOD)
hostage	costage (short o)
hostage	postage (long o)
pint	rynt, rhint, bint(?), behint (Robert Burns: The Cooper O' Cuddy)
pedant	quadrupedant
reptile	septile
width	sidth

The following two words have alternate spellings.

vacuum (vaccuum), (plus prefixes) wolf (woolf), (plus prefixes)

The following 'non-rhyming' words all have perfect rhymes with words that are the same base word plus a prefix.

breadth, celebrity, chimney, denizen, depth, diamond, different, empty, engine, film, fugue, husband, integer, monster, neutron, obvious, office, olive, plankton, plinth, promise, sanction, shadow, tournament, tragedy, transfer, vacuum, wolf

Kdq (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Galaxy and agalaxy don't work because the emphasis is put on the "a" in agalaxy, rendering the rhyme a slant. Otherwise, thanks for your research, feel free to edit the article. Teh Rote (talk) 20:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Eldoraddow

In which accent, precisely, does shadow rhyme with Eldorado? I have tried to imagine many English accents and all of them fall down because shadow has a short a and Eldorado a long one. 212.137.63.86 (talk) 13:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

In truth, that was a guess- I imagined that Poe had figured out some way for it to rhyme, but if you would prefer, feel free to remove that note. 72.148.42.192 (talk) 12:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "bulb"

If bulb rhymes with culb, it should not be on this list. We did the same with orange, purple, silver, and month, so I will be removing bulb if no-one objects. 208.27.127.94 (talk) 14:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Toilet

'Toilet' doesn't seem to have any perfect rhymes. ColinMB (talk) 15:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Cleaning up

Here's what I'm about to do to clean up this messy page.

• First of all, sporange does not rhyme with orange, as clearly stated in the usage note. I will be moving it into the list.
• Secondly, the section regarding orange, purple, silver, and month will be retitled "Words with obscure perfect rhymes".
• Thirdly, the terms bulb, eighth, elbow, and of will be removed. Here is my justification:

  No matter how obscure the rhyme, if it has a perfect rhyme, it must not be one the list. Bulb rhymes with culb, so it will be removed. Simple as that.

  Eighth is a perfect rhyme for weighth, an alternative spelling and pronunciation of weight- compare heighth.

  Elbow rhymes with beelbow, as was pointed out above.

  "Of" rhymes with love in American English and "sov" (just look it up, yes, it seriously is a real word) as well as "thereof" in British English.

Teh Rote (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I need evidence that eighth rhymes with weighth. The final consonant would seem to be different in RP, though the same in my pronunciation (since I have a /t/ in heighth).

I started moving words up to 'obscure', but many aren't even obscure, like plinth and synth. So I'm just going to start moving them here: zonary (donary, nonary, stonery—at least, I don't find nonary or stonery to be obscure) ...

Oh, and I'm putting elbow back in. We don't generally consider a word a rhyme when it rhymes with itself! If we did, we'd start getting things like she-wolf to rhyme with wolf (okay, that's not a perfect rhyme, but you get my point).

Restoring animal, unless you want to count the blend "manimal"!

kwami (talk) 20:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, when we remove words, we should make a list at the top of this page, with the word they rhyme with, so that mistakes can be corrected and a record kept so they aren't returned. kwami (talk) 21:26, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I have discovered

That the RhymeZone thing is completely and utterly useless. It barely covers an eighth of the English vocabulary. Please, use the OED or some other source when checking. Teh Rote (talk) 01:40, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

complete list of monosyllabic non-rhymes?

We might be able to get something close to a complete list of monosyllabic words if we put some effort into it. It's not worth even trying for disyllabic words, though it's good to have the more common ones. kwami (talk) 10:38, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd be willing to bet that a few of those we have on the "obscure" list. I'll get to work on finding others, though. Teh Rote (talk) 10:52, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Confused about "aitch"... it's listed at the bottom of the one syllable rhymes section but not in the main list. I can't think of a rhyme, but that's no proof. axschme (talk) 00:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Obsolete or dialectical rache. kwami (talk) 01:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Pork

To me, pork and fork are a perfect rhyme. Okay, for some obscure reason it is not considered a rhyme here. But what about Bourque, cork, dork, Mork, Tork, torque, and Zork? Ma^t_chups 17:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

We can't customize the article to the dialect of whoever happens to be reading it at the moment. The comparison is in RP, where all those words (that are in a dictionary) rhyme with fork, not pork. The former have the vowel of for, the latter the vowel of four. kwami (talk) 18:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Which, if you look at Received pronunciation, are both /ɔː/. Check out this section. 137.205.74.30 (talk) 21:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, perhaps "RP as defined by the OED" then. kwami (talk) 21:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The OED is a century old. Perhaps we should be using a more current source to decide what's a rhyme. I agree that "we can't customize the article the dialect of whoever happens to be reading it at the moment" and so "leap year" doesn't rhyme with "idea." But I suspect in this case that not only most native speakers but most references would consider "pork" and "fork" to be a rhyme, and that it is, if not customization, then at least WP:undue weight to edit this article otherwise. I have already checked dictionaries from both sides of the pond, and both Chambers and Webster support this. Ma^t_chups 01:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's see what others think. Do these dictionaries distinguish horse and hoarse? If we remove it, it would be useful in the text, as an example of dialectal variation. kwami (talk) 05:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey, wait a second! What excuse for a dictionary did you use? Pork and fork don't even rhyme in Random House! kwami (talk) 05:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I noted my dictionaries above in my post above. I also just checked Random House. The Second Edition (1987) shows them rhyming. Ma^t_chups 18:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't go by the OED. The pronunciation seems to think people pronounce "high" as /hʌɪ/ rather than /haɪ/ or /hɑɪ/. I tried /ʌɪ/ and sounds unintelligible (and I like to think, as a Southerner, that my pronunciation is very close to RP). The only word I can think of with /ɔə/ is "drawer", and that's only to disambiguate it from "draw". 137.205.74.30 (talk) 15:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and Matchups, "leap year" and "idea" would rhyme in RP but for the wrong stress (/ˈliːpjɪə/ v. /aɪˈdɪə/).137.205.74.30 (talk) 15:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that enough proof that RP is a joke? The RP article says that 2% of Britons speak RP, which means probably fewer than 1% of all English speakers. I believe that we need to change the guideline for this article to base it on modern, mainstream pronunciation as documented by modern dictionaries. Let's say any two of the major, respected ones. Ma^t_chups 18:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure leaving RP is the answer either. Rhyme is solely based on pronunciation and therefore the article needs to either settle on one accent (easiest) or some sort of market-basket of accents. And two words are deemed to rhyme when???, if they rhyme in 4 out of 5 of the most common english accents? Perhaps a table format with columns for RP, Standard American, Australian, Hiberno-English, Indian Subcontinent English (several sub-accents here I'm sure), Nigerian English, Jamaican English, 19th-century Mancunian-English. It starts to sound silly, (which rhymes with willy-nilly). Accents documented by modern dictionaries is a step in the right direction, but which ones and how many is a tricky POV-laden question. For the record though, I do think pork and fork rhyme. axschme (talk) 19:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It isn't just RP that distinguishes pork from fork—Random House has them as not necessarily rhyming in US English. I know people who think friend and Ben rhyme, or pen and sin. Should we go by what they think? It's most useful to use a conservative & highly discriminating dialect like RP, and note where other dialects conflate its distinctions.

I think it's a better use of our time to come up with the rest of the monosyllabic refractory rhymes than to list what we have in some arbitrary basket of dialect which don't add any information to the article. kwami (talk) 19:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

(reduced indent)

hey kwami, you've done great work on this article and I appreciate it, but I think you need to be careful in a couple spots here. 1) I think we are talking about accents, not dialects (though some of my accent examples could probably also be described as dialects). Describing "other" accents as dialects can come off as pejorative. 2) There is no "standard" accent of English. RP proponents come off sounding rather snooty (and prescriptive) when they push it as "correct" or even as exemplary. I personally think there is a lot of interesting information we could provide here in terms of comparative non-rhyming in various English (language, not country) accents. And, like matchups points out, less than 1 percent of English speakers speak in RP. Of what use is a list of words that don't rhyme in some obscure accent? axschme (talk) 21:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The difference between RP and GA is dialect, not just accent. Either can sound pejorative, but then the word "they" can sound pejorative. (I've actually met people who use the word "they" as a racial slur. Amazing.) That's not reason to Bowdlerize our discussion.

We can make most of these words rhyme if we choose the proper dialect. I don't find that very interesting. Besides the benefit of having the OED available, the nice thing about RP is that, except for dropping ars, if two words don't rhyme in some other dialect, they're not likely to rhyme in RP either. By choosing RP, we're getting near-maximal info. (Okay, we're neglecting Scottish English, but most people understand that's another story.) If we choose some less discriminating dialect just so we don't have to worry about pairs like pork-fork, then we're losing info, and readers who come across the statement that "pork" and "fork" don't rhyme will think that it's a mistake, rather than understanding the role that dialects can play in poetry. kwami (talk) 22:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

We're not pushing a prescriptive pronunciation (accent), but describing the distinctions that are made (phonology, & therefore grammar, & therefore dialect). The distinctions made in RP are made all over the world, including in the US, though some are regional. kwami (talk) 22:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to bowdlerize, and I certainly didn't mean to be contentious. These are heavily politicized notions, so it is to be expected that there are real substantive disagreements. Therefore we shouldn't just paper them over with a terse "this article is from the perspective of RP". I have to insist on one point, grammar and phonology are irrelevant to this article. Rhyme is only a question of pronunciation. Accent, or pronunciation, are the best words to use here. Dialect infers a difference in vocabulary or grammar (and often culture) that is entirely beside the point. So, using the word dialect, while insisting that RP (which is always associated with privelege and class in England) is the best "dialect" to judge rhyme from comes off as elitist and out of touch. I just think that is something we need to be careful about when dismissing other accents in which rhyme patterns are different. I do not think it is as simple as saying, well if it doesn't rhyme in RP it is unlikely to rhyme anywhere, or the converse, if it rhymes in RP it rhymes everywhere. The accents of present day English are too varied and independent to make that assumption. I mean this comment as a prelude to further discussion. I think discussion is merited. But I don't know the answers. axschme (talk) 00:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is a matter of both dialect and grammar. What you're talking about is not just various accents in whatever-we-call-the-dialect-that-includes-RP, but variation across dialects. GA is not an "accent" of the same dialect as RP. When two words rhyme in one lect but not in another, there is more than a simple difference in accent, but also a difference in phonology, which is part of grammar.

Correct, many words rhyme in other dialects which don't rhyme in RP—merry marry Mary all rhyme for me. But, except for dropping the ars (iron–ion, for example), words which rhyme in RP are highly unlikely to not rhyme in any American or Australasian dialect. I'm not saying RP is "better" for rhymes, or for poetry, only that IMO it's the most useful. My own dialect, GA, adds nothing at all apart from the ar, and loses quite a bit. It seems best to use RP as our default, and when we find rhymeless words in other dialects, such as iron in GA or something with the bad–lad split in Oz, we can add that with the appropriate note. But we shouldn't remove words like pork that are rhymeless in RP just because they rhyme in GA. kwami (talk) 02:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I've just thought of something. In Estuary English, which is quite common in S England, there is a distinction between "for" and "four" roughly analagous to the OED's interpretation. The vowel /ɔː/ is pronounced what I would desribe as [oʷ] ~ [ʊʷ] (the latter may also represent /ɔːɫ/); "for" is [foʷ] and "four" is [foʷə]. I think this only occurs in open syllables (so not pork/fork), but it is interesting to note. 137.205.74.30 (talk) 09:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

PS As a chemist I always distinguish "iron" /aɪən/ and "ion" /ˈaɪˌɒn/ as they often occur in the same sentence (eg Iron(II) ion).