Jump to content

User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Trisw (talk | contribs)
46 edits
No edit summary
Trisw (talk | contribs)
46 edits
No edit summary
Line 164: Line 164:




The basic problems is that for English word "Hungary" several languages have two or three different names with their different polical meanings.
The basic problems is that for the English word "Hungary" several languages have two or three different names with their different polical meanings.
For example in Slovak "Uhorsko" means a multinational kingdom which existed from 1000 to 1918 and "Madarsko" a today Hungarian ethnic state.
For example in Slovak "Uhorsko" means a multinational kingdom which existed from 1000 to 1918 and "Madarsko" a today Hungarian ethnic state.
In Croatian it is expresed by names "Ugarska" and "Madarska".
In Croatian it is expresed by names "Ugarska" and "Madarska".

Revision as of 08:10, 24 October 2008

Shortcut

Ground rules

This page is an experiment, as part of my (Elonka's) involvement with the ArbCom-designated Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. As I write this, there seems to be a dispute involving Hungarian and Slovakian articles. The dispute is de-centralized, and is taking place in edit summaries, userpages, talkpages, and administrator noticeboards. The dispute seems to involve multiple editors, and some anonymous accounts. Since it is extremely difficult to follow everything that's going on on every page, I have created this central page, and recommend adding a pointer to this page from all the locations of disputes.

I am an uninvolved administrator in this discussion, I have no preference for either side. However, I do insist that:

  • Participants remain civil
  • Edit wars cease
  • Anyplace that an article is reverted, that an explanation either be posted on that article's talkpage, or a pointer be placed on that article's talkpage, which links interested editors to here.

It is my hope that with a centralized point of discussion, that we'll be able to reduce the confusion, and those editors who are genuinely interested in having civil discussions towards determining consensus, will be able to do so.

Please feel free to start any threads here that you want, and invite anyone that you wish.

--Elonka 06:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator boards and other threads

Active threads

Archived threads

Naming convention

(previous discussions and polls can be seen in Archive 2)


The naming convention for places in Slovakia. It is meant to be a specification of guideline nr. 3 (about the use of a name in other articles) of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Given the long shared history of Slovakia and Hungary, it is desirable to mention both the Slovak and the Hungarian name in several cases. This depends on the (historical) context in which it is used:

  • Before 1918: the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. "Eperjes (Prešov)" or "Prešov (Eperjes)".
    • In biographies of clearly Slovak persons, the name should be used in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively
    • In biographies of clearly Hungarian persons, the name should be used in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively
    • In other cases the order of the names, and which name is used in the rest of the article is arbitrary. If a dispute arises, the name most used in the given context in reliable sources (see WP:NCGN) should be used first, and the other name(s) should be listed in parentheses at the first occurrence
  • After 1918: use the Slovak name. Use Hungarian (or other minority languages) at least once for places with significant Hungarian (or other minority) population, either in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively, or in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively. Significant is more than 20% of the population by contemporary census.
  • For places that changed name (e.g. Štúrovo was called Parkan before 1948): follow the rules above, but use the contemporary Slovak or Hungarian name as the primary name, and also add the modern name as an alternative. Example: for a biography about a 19th century Slovak from Parkan/Párkány/Štúrovo, use "Parkan (Párkány, present Štúrovo)", and later "Parkan" exclusively
  • For places that have another widely accepted (historic) name in English (e.g. Pressburg for Bratislava before 1919): use that name, and mention the modern name and relevant alternative names at the first occurrence.

Articles in which the convention has been applied


I oppose the whole convention because it's artificial and its only purpose is to satisfy certain editors. It's also against guidelines and policies of Wikipedia.--Svetovid (talk) 23:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And what would you prefer instead? --Elonka 04:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, follow the Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. Unless there is actual evidence that a name is widely used in English, don't use it.--Svetovid (talk) 07:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The text of the convention was formulated after months and months of several discussion rounds and the participation of at least 15 editors, you are free to propose your possible modifications if you think they can achive consensus. Hobartimus (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, if in the article on Anton Bernolák (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for the Slovak Orava the form Orava (Árva) is used (and without mention that Árva is a Huingarian name for Orava, what is confusing for a reader who does not come from Central Europe), why not to use for Hungarian Buda a form Buda (Budín) or better Buda (Budín, Ofen)? Up to cca 1850 the population of the whole twin city (Pest and Buda) was composed from 50 000 Germans and German-speaking Jews, 30 000 Slovaks and from obly 20 000 ethnical Hungarians :-) Trisw (talk) 08:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


New home

Okay, this "Experiment" has been going really well, and I am very proud of all that we have accomplished.  :) I have seen many people learn new ways of dealing with disputes, and some really good articles are developing. I've also been getting positive feedback from other Wikipedia administrators, that they liked what we've done here, and would like to try out some of the techniques in other areas of conflict on Wikipedia. So congratulations!  :) I know that some of the things that we did here were not easy, but I really appreciate how much everyone was working hard to learn new ways to communicate and edit. I have especially been pleased when I saw people reaching out to former enemies, and be willing to forgive and move forward.

As the first step of formalizing this Experiment into something that other people can study, I'd like to move this page to a new home, so it's no longer an "experiment". Any ideas on what a good name would be? Other projects have used things like "Cooperation board" or "Reconciliation project", but we're open to new suggestions as well. I am also open to any feedback that anyone has about how this Experiment developed over the last month or two, and ways that we could have done things better. Or, if there was anything that you thought was particularly helpful, which we should be sure to teach to other folks who are trying to deal with complex disputes, please bring it up! Thanks, --Elonka 04:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Selling the format, huh? :) I think this page should stay as a common notice and talkboard for this topic, and should be renamed to reflect that. My suggestion would be "Slovak-Hungarian common talkboard" or something similar. --Rembaoud (talk) 20:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice suggestion. Or something like "Cooperation board Slovak-Hungarian topics". One of my concerns is that several editors dropped out of the discussion, the main reason seems to be frustration over misbehaviour of other (incl. anonymous) editors, it might be a good idea to ask them why they left. IMO the main advantages of the experiment are the "no revert restrictions" and someone (Elonka) who instructs the participants to discuss in a civil way. Markussep Talk 20:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is really good idea. I hope that editors who seem to have left Wikipedia for a time would later rejoin us. Borsoka (talk) 19:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I left because I am interested in serious editing, that is addition of new and sourced facts and correction of any inaccuracies. I am not interested in petty arguments about editors' personal goals and interests that don't seem to have much with what Wikipedia should be.--Svetovid (talk) 23:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My guess is that the editors who "left" have gone on to other hobbies. It is fairly typicaly that people in online communities participate for a period of time (usually 6-18 months), and then they move on. But as older voices leave, newer voices arrive. It's a constant flow.  :) So, for a new title, Cooperation board for Slovak-Hungarian topics works for everyone? --Elonka 04:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK with me. Markussep Talk 22:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Community review

Hi all.  :) A question has come up about some of my methods on managing articles, and whether or not I am using good judgment as an administrator. I therefore invite anyone within reach of this page who has an opinion on the matter (good or bad) to participate in the discussion: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Elonka. --Elonka 18:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Elonka, I think you have been in an extremly sensitive position, because as we have experienced, even the existence of certain former states may be a crucial issue in our region. I think you assisted us to understand that the history of our region can be interpreted in several ways, and interpretations that differ from the ones we have learnt may be valid, as well. My feeling is that there are several editors on both sides who cannot accept this diversity of views, but I hope that step by step a kind of consesus would develop among us. Borsoka (talk) 10:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

correct use of historical names of Hungary

I looked a lot of biografies and I see a common practice to name a place of birth and palce of death: using full information see Garry Kasparov: born in Baku, Azerbaijan SSR, Soviet Union or Josip Broz Tito born in Kumrovec, Croatia-Slavonia, Austria-Hungary, but for a lot of people in years 1700 - 1918 I see only Hungary, that is a humbug, Hungary was not existent and Kingdom of Hungary is only half-truth and falsehood, Kingdom of Hungary was part of Austrian Empire, after 1867 Austria-Hungary, best cheek is comming from User:Hobartimus, he say Segesvar, probably death place of Petofi is in Hungary, there was a lot of laughter, Teansylvania was only 1867-1918 part of Kingdom of Hungary, but not Hungary. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 17:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Nina, I think your above remark contain some misunderstanding of historical facts. (1)The Kingdom of Hungary existed from 1000/1001 until 1946 when the Republic of Hungary was proclaimed. (2)The Austrian Empire existed from 1804 until 1918, therefore the Kingdom of Hungary could not be its part before. (3)Although the Archdukes (and later Emperors of) of Austria were also Kings of Hungary from 1526, it does not mean that Hungary was a part of Austria. E.g., Louis I of Hungary was also King of Poland, but nobody claims that Poland was part of the Kingdom of Hungary at that time. (4) Although the political union of the realms and provinces ruled by the Habsburg monarchs went further than a pure personal union, because there were some institutions (e.g., the Council of War) whose jurisdiction expanded over all of them, but consitutionally the Kingdom of Hungary was an independent state with its own legislative and governmental bodies independent from the jurisdiction of foreign powers. E.g., both Hungary and Slovakia are members of the EU, but nobody claims that they are not independent countries any more, although some EU institutions can issue decrees that are obligatory for the legislative and judiciary bodies of the two countries; in the Kingdom of Hungary, during the Habsburgs' rule, the Diets passed acts and no foreign powers could legally enforce the Estates or the law courts in the kingdom to accept any direction. So, I think it is more than surprising that anybody qualifies a polity existing over 1000 years as humbug. Borsoka (talk) 10:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Kingdom of Hungary existed 1000-1944/1946, but Kingdom of Hungary
from Kingdom of Hungary:
  • After a failed Ottoman invasion of Austria in 1683, the Habsburgs went on the offensive against the Turks; by the end of the 17th century, they had managed to conquer the remainder of the historical Kingdom of Hungary and the principality of Transylvania. At this point, the Royal Hungary terminology was dropped, and the area was once again referred to as the Kingdom of Hungary, although it was still administered as a part of the Habsburg realm. In the 18th century, the Kingdom of Hungary had its own Diet (parliament) and constitution, but the members of the Governor's Council (Helytartótanács, the office of the palatine) were appointed by the Habsburg monarch, and the superior economic institution, the Hungarian Chamber, was directly subordinated to the Court Chamber in Vienna.
Summary: Hungary was 1526-1918 only a province of Habsburg monarchy, no chance to be independent country, correct syntax is 1526-1867 Kingdom of Hungary, Habsburg Monarchy and 1867 - 1918 Kingdom of Hungary, Austria-Hungary. :--Nina.Charousek (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such country as Habsburg Monarchy I'm sorry. Habsburg Monarchy is not a country. See Holy Roman Empire. Hobartimus (talk) 17:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
you a right, there is today not such country, there is not more Sovjet Union, but Habsburg Monarchy and Sovjet Union - 2 historical empires: from hu-wp: Habsburg Birodalom névvel szokás illetni a Habsburg-ház kezén levő államok összességét I. Rudolf német király 13. századi uralkodásától kezdve egészen az Osztrák–Magyar Monarchia 1867es megalakulásáig. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and that includes Spain, The territory of the Netherlands, All the states in the Holy Roman Empire, including parts of present day Italy, Switzerland, the list goes on. The Habsburg House ruled over a huge number of countries during the centuries, but this didn't mean all of this mess was one country. Hungarian King Nagy Lajos ruled over Naples (Nápoly) for example in present day Italy but we don't say that Naples was part of Hungary at the time. Or Poland or Wallachia or Moldavia or ... he ruled a lot of lands. Mátyás Hunyadi along with quite a few other Hungarian Kings also ruled over Bohemia, Bosnia and since the King decided on foreign policy all these lands didn't have their foreign policy at the time or their own army (it served at the will of the King) etc. This doesn't mean they were part of each other, that would require a common language common laws etc etc. Hobartimus (talk) 17:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
easy - habsburg monarchy was not a country, but an empire, an empire not need a common language, laws and hungary was not an independent country, sovjet union was 1950 not a country and estonia was 1950 not an independent country. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 19:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Habsburg Monarchy was not actually used as an official name of any country state or empire. There was no entity by that name, in existence ever. This is a simple, yet undisputable fact. Hobartimus (talk) 20:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
yes, i made now in flash article about habsburg monarchy and i am the only historian, who use it. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 05:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Within the EU, EU institutions control the tariffs, the budgetary system, several taxes, several fields of civil law and other functions of the member states. Does it mean that Hungary and Slovakia lost their independence when they joined the EU? As to the Habsburg empire, during the middle ages, similar empires also existed: the empire of the Luxembourg dynasty (Bohemia, Hungary, Luxemburg), the empire of the Jagello dynasty (Poland, Bohemia, Lithuania, Hungary). All these empires had their own institutions (at least the king and his council), but nobody claims that they lost their own independence. Yes, the union of the realms and the provinces within the Habsburg Empire formed a political union, because they were governed by the same monarchs and there were some common institutions, but each realms and provinces reserved their own constitutional institutions: e.g., the Habsburg kings could not levy tax without the consent of the Diet, the viceroy (the Palatine) was elected by the Diet, the Diet passed the act that ensured the succession of the female line of the Habsburgs. In the course of the 17th century, the Habsburg kings made peaces with the Estates of the Kingdom of Hungary and even in 1711 they had to accept a compormise that ensured the constitutional (although in some territories, only limited) independence of the Kingdom of Hungary. Even the Habsburg kings of Hungary, could not grant offices and estates to their partisans living in their other realms in the Kingdom of Hungary, without the consent of the Estates. I accept that the Kingdom of Hungary did not enjoy the same level of independence from the 17th century, than it had enjoyed before, but Hungary and Slovakia lost the control over several field of law when they joined the EU, but, I presume, both of them are still independent countries with their own independent constitutional institutions. Borsoka (talk) 05:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

if you work in wikipedia exactly, you have to write: 1949-1953 Hungary amusement park of Stalin, 1953-1989 Hungary (satellite of Moskau), 1989-2003 Hungary (schoolgirl of Washington), 2003 - Hungary (part of EU) --Nina.Charousek (talk) 16:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nina, isn't this discussion about how to refer to places in Hungary and former Hungarian territories in 18th and 19th century context? Maybe it's better to focus on that. The History of Hungary 1700-1919 article may help. You can also research how other encyclopedias treat similar cases, for instance Encyclopaedia Britannica. Markussep Talk 18:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Nina, your suggestion is really interesting and remarkable. My only concern that it would be difficult to reach a consensus on the proper adjectives. E.g., the amusement park of Stalin would not be acceptable for several editors, because the Revolution of 1956 suggests that Hungary was obviously not an amusement park in those years, the satellite of Moskau would not differentiate Hungary from most of the states in the Soviet Block. 213.134.24.30 (talk) 19:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dear IP and Markussep, my last contribution was a piece of irony, but history of Hungary is truly not funny, it is a long run of negative experience and foreign rule, 1956 is not exception, but it was not only tragedy for concerned generation, but a piece of hope for next generation. It is for me not so important to find a consensus - my chanches are not good - I see I receive a lot of irrational answers - but to say - please be careful and act not only at national basis. EB P. symbolized the Hungarian desire for freedom. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 21:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Nina, I fully agree that we should try to act not only at national basis, and we should accept that some of our remarks (e.g., amusement park of Stalin) may be offensive for others. And I also presume that we all also should accept that none of us is in the position to decide whether a fact of history is true or not, and it is not our task to describe our own interpretations of historical facts and events, but to help our community to learn all the relevant interpretations. Borsoka (talk) 03:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • N. F.
  • Ó, mondd Istenem! Ó, mondd meg nekem!
  • Ó, mondd miért van ez?
  • És mondd meddig tart ez még?
  • Horthy jött a fehér lovon,
  • Sztálin vágtatott harckocsikon,
  • Hitler hozta a csodafegyvert,
  • ZSEBREVÁGOTT minket a történelem.

(sorry - only hungarian text) --Nina.Charousek (talk) 05:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Local names

The basic problems is that for the English word "Hungary" several languages have two or three different names with their different polical meanings. For example in Slovak "Uhorsko" means a multinational kingdom which existed from 1000 to 1918 and "Madarsko" a today Hungarian ethnic state. In Croatian it is expresed by names "Ugarska" and "Madarska". In Czech "Uhersko" means the whole kingdom (maybe wihout Croatia), "Uhry" the central part of kingdom (today Slovakia and today Republic of Hungary but without Transylvania and Croatia) and "Madarsko" a todaj Hungarian etnic state. Hungarian (Magyar) language and English do not make this difference.

Analogicaly all inhabitants of the ancient kingdom were "Ugri" or "Uhri" (Hungari in Latin) which were composed from smaller ethnical nations (Slovaks, Criatians, Romanians, Germans, Ruthenians and of course ethnic Hungarians,(till cca1830 the did not represetn more than cca 30% of the whole population)). The official language up to 1848 was the Latin! This was in past politicaly significant. Behind the dualism Uhorsko/Madarsko, Ugarska/Madarska there is expresed the idea that this kingdom was the "home" of several different and equal ethnical nations, but the having and using only one name (Magyarország, Hungary) and the idea of identification of the ancient Kingdom of Hungary with the presen small national Hungarian state may evoke an impression that the ancient Kingdom of Hungary was an ethnical state of ethnical "Hungarians" and other nationas were not real "masters" and "rulers" of the country. (see: the dispute Bencsik v. Magina in 18th century) This question in the past was an object of very heated discussion leading oft to military conflicts. (Therefore in this Slovak-Hungarian- Romanian discussion on terminology in the wikipedia the level of a personal involvement is understable.)

Russian and German language can make a difference between names of people "Vengri" versus "Madari", "Ungaren" versus "Magyaren", but not in names of the countries! That is always "Vengria" and "Ungarn". However, it is more corrent to admit that the English language has the proper name only for the ancient Kingdom of Hungary and its inhabitants ("Uhorsko"), but not for a today Hungarian ethnic state! Maybe in the past the Kingdom of Hungary was too far from England to make a difference between peoples within its borders :-)

It means that for a non-Hungarian and non-English contributors is possible to refer about past their nations and their ancestors as about "Uhri", "Ugri" and maybe as "Hungarians" (in meaning inhabitants of the Kingdom of Hungary), but they seek the way how to distinguish them in English from ethnic Hungarians (Magyars)and how to make English reading people understand a difference between "Uhorsko" and "Madarsko".

As I know, same Slovaks try to define this difference in English by using the word "Magyars" in English texts, but I am not sure whethet it is a acceptable way.

As regards a rule to use local names depending on the ethicity of the person that is being described in the article, yes, it seems to be a good solutin, but what to de with persons of mixed origin or bolonging to the history of more than one ethnical nations (Petofi/Petrovic and Kossuth/Kosut are good examples :-))?

In the conclusion I would like to express the idea that the historical Kingdom of Hungary in wikpedia should not be presented only by using the Magyar (ethnical Hungarian) perspective. Romanian, Slovak, Croatian points of view are equally legitimate.

Only ethnical Hungarian perspective is rather offensive for Slovaks, Germans, Ruthenians, Serbs, Romanians and Croatians. For exmaple places in Slovakia have their really original Slovak and sometime German names which are about 800- 1200 yeras old and sometime maybe more (Devin, Tatry, Nitra, Morava, Vah, Turiec, Liptov, etc.). Ethnical Hungarian names were very frequently invented for them only in 19th century during the political campaign of "Magyarisation" (or "Hungarisation"). It means that using Hungarian names for localities in Slovakia is not politicaly "neutral" (it is not only the question of terminology and a used language) and Slovaks can see it as a sign of "imperial arogance" and maybe agressive plans of ethnical Hungarians. I think that today nobody mentions Polish Gdynia as Gottenhafen (a German name during the occupation of Poland in 1940-45).

And if he or she calls this city as Gottenhafen, the Polish reaction is very agressive :-)

Therefore I really think that in English texts all names of places should be mentioned in English or in the official languages of the country in which they are today situated (with some referencies to names in other relevant languages or historical names). This stnadard is used in almost all other wikipedia articles. If in the article about Petofi/Petrovic for the Austian Wien is used English Vienna and not Hungarian Bécs, there is not any reason to use Hungarian Selmecbánya for Slovak Banská Štiavnica. Trisw (talk) 07:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian_experiment&oldid=247343991"