Talk:National emblem of North Macedonia

CoA vs. Emblem

This looks more like an emblem, not a CoA. should we change the article's name? ES Vic (talk) 17:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

No. Because the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia reffers to it as a CoA. Even if heraldry calls it an Emblem this fact could only be a sentence in the article. Not more than a sentence. -- Imbris (talk) 17:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Red star was a symbol of Yugoslavism

As I wrote to Neutralista on his talk page the red star is a symbol of Yugoslavia. In addition to what I have wrote to him I have checked that in every constitution of the SFRY and its republics and autonomous provinces the red star is not defined as the symbol of Communism. On what do you base your statements. You acknowledge that Yugoslavia had no Communism but Socialism and yet you insist on defining the symbols of today's Macedonia as being Communist. It is simply not, nor had ever been. The fact that a main political party was called the Union of Communists of Yugoslavia has nothing to do with the symbolism of the red star. -- Imbris (talk) 21:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

If the red star was a symbol of Yugoslavism, it would have been used in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, too and the Republic of Macedonia would definitely not use it today as its coat of arms. the red star never appeared before the creation of the Communist party of Yugoslavia as a Yugoslavist symbol, although there were several political movements in the 18th and 19. century which worked towards the creation of a common South-Slavic country. Cukiger (talk) 21:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The entire reference you give is historical revisionism. Kingdom of Yugoslavia was a greater Serbian construct rather than a federal state of 6 nations and many nationalities. You and your opinion cannot be referenced as a source. The question of whether the Republic of Macedonia would or wouldn't, should or shouldn't use the current Coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia is beyond out debate. The question is why do you insist on claims that cannot be supstantiated by sources (relevant sources from that time period). Why are you defamating the current CoA of Macedonia? If you do not agree with that CoA it is OK, but you simply cannot demand that this communitiy of encyclopeadists on Wikipedia trust you and your emotional discomfort with the current CoA of Macedonia. What would the New Zealanders say about your insistance that the red star is always a symbol of Communism. Everyoune would agree that the hammer and sickle is the No. 1 symbol of Communism and Socialism as well (the "West" doesn't differentiate the two). -- Imbris (talk) 21:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I did not refer only to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, but also to pro-Yugoslav figures and organizations from the 18th and 19th century. I have no problem with the actual coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia. I accept that it is a symbol of the socialist past of the country. You cannot compare the red stars in the flag of New Zealand with the communist red star. Of course, those in the flag of NZ do not represent communism, becuase NZ never was a socialist country. It is pretty obvious (and therefore does not have to be proved) that the red star in SR Macedonia's, SR Croatia's and SFR Yugoslavia's OCA was used because of Yugoslavia being a socialist country. If you want the article to state that the red star in the Macedonian COA does not represent the communist red star, then you have to prove it.. Cukiger (talk) 22:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I have proven that according to the Constitution of that time period the red star was not identified as a solemnly Communist symbol. The hammer and sickle played that role. Also you can look at any official document of the former Yugoslavia and you cannot find any that would identify the red star as being a Communist symbol. It was the symbol of National Liberation and Struggle of Yugoslavia.

When the No. 1 legal document of the land says differently then you are the one who should find a source (of that magnitude) that is contrary towards the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia.

Why do you insist on writing that the current CoA of the Republic of Macedonia symbolise Communism, when in Yugoslavia there were no Communism but Self-Management Socialist rule of Nations and Nationalities represented by the working people and citizens throughout Delegation System in which the Union of Communists of Yugoslavia (and each of the unions of each of the republics and autonomous provinces) and non-party delegats participated.

The Republic of Macedonia is the solemn owner and representant of its current symbols so there is no place for Communism label in the Coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia or in the Coat of arms of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia.

What is your source for such claim that the five-pointed red star (with yellow edging) is a symbol of Communism in Yugoslavia.

Imbris (talk) 21:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It is too simple. Yugoslavia was a Socialist country with a one-party system (the party was the Union of Communists of Yugoslavia). Yugoslavia was a pro-Stalinist (that means hardcore-communist) country until 1948, before Tito broke with Stalin. The fact that workers' self-management was invented in Yugoslavia at the beginning of 1950ies does not mean that Yugoslavia was no more a Socialist country. Tito himself always referred to the political system in Yugoslavia as socialism. There is no doubt that the red star also became a Yugoslav patriotic symbol. But primarely it was the symbol of Communism, invented by communists. I'm not insisting on the coat of arms of Macedonia to be described as Communist, but it simply is a true fact. If it was different I would accept that, too. Cukiger (talk) 01:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

If what was different you would accept... Yugoslavia in 1945 had numerous political parties. Sadly enough the elections held on 1945-11-11 were won by the National Front of Yugoslavia with candidates on:

• The candidation list of the Land for the National Front of Bosnia and Herzegovina
• The candidation list of the Land for the National Front of Croatia
• The candidation list of the Land for the National Front of Macedonia
• The candidation list of the Land for the National Front of Montenegro
• The candidation list of the Land for the National Front of Serbia (Jaša Prodanović)
• The candidation list of the Land for the National Front of Serbia (dr. Siniša Stanković)
• The candidation list of the Region for the National Front of Kosovo & Metohia
• The candidation list of the Region for the National Front of Vojvodina
• Socialist Party of Yugoslavia 88/45
• Social-Democratic Party of Yugoslavia 97/45
• Independent Democratic Party 7/47
• Democratic Party 73/45
• National Peasant Party 78/46
• National Radical Party 78/45
• Yugoslav Republican Democratic Party 86/45
• National Front of Yugoslavia 77/45
• United Alliance of Antifascist Youth of Yugoslavia 81/45
• Yugoslav League for Peace, Independence and Equality of Nations 42/59

The numbers beside the name of the party represent No./Year of the Official Gazette of the SFRY. -- Imbris (talk) 23:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The country imployed certain politics like the land nationalisation. This policies were active for a brief time between 1946 and 1948.

The symbols were created in the time of the National Liberation War (1941-1945) before the application of those policies simmilar to Soviet Union policies.

Why do you keep on insisting that current symbol of the Republic of Macedonia is Communist is beyond my comprehension.

Please stop.

Imbris (talk) 01:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I have provided sources which claim that the symbols in the Coat of arms of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia do not represent the Communist it has been described in the Constitution.

Also I have provided a source where all of the flags of national minorities have to had a red star as a symbol of being minorities of the SFRY.

What more do you need?

Imbris (talk) 01:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Source(s)

ORDER on Hoisting of Flags

Nations of Yugoslavia went into struggle and fought unyielding battles against the enemy, carried their National flags with the five pointed Star as symbols of the National Liberation Struggle.

At the Historical 2nd Session of the Antifascist Council of National Liberation of Yugoslavia, held in Jajce on 29th of November 1943, at which the foundations of the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia were laid, the State Flag became the symbol of strength of all Nations of Yugoslavia.

The five pointed Star on flags is the star which has shined to us and gave us strength and belief in hardest times of national uprisings and enemy offensives, it instil unshakeable confidence that the Nations of Yugoslavia, under the leadership of the National Hero Marshal Tito will enjoy days of liberty, happiness and fortunate existence.

Regarding all of the above, the duty of each individual is to respect these sanctities, and therefore I

o r d e r :

1. In all occasions when the National flags and the Yugoslav flag are hoisted or carried, these must only the flags with the five pointed Star on the middle field, laid in a way that the peaks of the points of the five pointed Star grasp other fields. This is the only form of our State flags and other flags i.e. the ones without the five pointed Star are not to be displayed.

2. At all of the State Institutions in the area of the Federal Croatia, it is obligatory to fly the Yugoslav State Flag and the Flag of the Federal Croatia.

This order is valid immediately from this moment on.

Death to Fascism - Freedom to the People!

Ministry of Interior Affairs No. 1644.-45. 26th of May 1945.

Minister of Interior Affairs: Vicko Krstulovic, m. p.

Source: Proceedings of Laws, Decrees and Orders (Zbornik zakona, uredaba i naredaba), the Official Gazette of the Federal State of Croatia (Narodne novine), Year I, Vol. II, No. 30, Page 87, Issue 25th September 1945, Zagreb.

This is an interesting source on the flags of the Federal State of Croatia (1943-1945) within the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia. But also this is a source on the Flag of the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia (1943-1946).

From this source it could be clearly understood that even in this initial period the five pointed red star ought to be displayed with three of the peaks of the points entering into the red and blue stripes of the flag. This source also defines that all of the Nations of Yugoslavia have the right to display their flags if and only if the five pointed red star is presented on them.

In that time there were no definition of nations and nationalities but all of the different ethnicities of Yugoslavia were considered as nations, especially when combating was involved.

We can find various announcements and pamphlets during the National Liberation Struggle which support the claim that in times of battle all the nations were equal in their right to fight for Yugoslavia.

This source is also especially important to describe that the five pointed red star is not just the symbol of certain ideologies but more important the symbol of Yugoslavian National Liberation during the World War II and also the symbol of brotherhood of Nations of Yugoslavia.

How much of that brotherhood was in practice and how much in theory it is not up to us but historians. Even in case that there were no brotherhood it remains that we have a source that claims the five pointed red star as a symbol of the National Liberation Struggle during the World War II.

Imbris (talk) 00:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

not just the symbol of certain ideologies but more important the symbol of Yugoslavian National Liberation. That means 'it is the symbol of Communism'. You're waisting your time, brother. Yugoslavia was Communist, SR Macedonia (as a part of it), too, and of course also their symbols. You cannot change the history the way you like it. MACEDONIA HAS A COMMUNIST PAST. Cukiger (talk) 05:47, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You are the one who cannot change the past. Democratic Federal Yugoslavia was not a Communist state and the Federal State of Macedonia as a federal unit of the DFY was not a Communist state. You are waisting your time with this insistance on disregarding sources and using just your and Revizionist socialist beliefs. You are the one who is prepared to edit-war without serious contribution to this discussion and who cannot belive that the five pointed red star was a symbol of the National Liberation Struggle in the World War II. -- Imbris (talk) 23:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

The continuation of our discussion

The red five-pointed star of Yugoslavia is not the symbol of Communism. The red five-pointed star of Yugoslavia is a symbol of Yugoslav patriots during the National Liberation War (1941-1945) and the symbol of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was not a Communist state but a federal republic with a system of self-government and could be considered socialist (Socialism with a Human Face). Look at this sentence from this source "All nationalities in Yugoslavia have equal right to hoist their national flags, but with the red five-pointed star in the middle, as common symbol of belonging to SFR Yugoslavia.".

Look at the the excerpt from the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia (Article 8^th) which goes like this: "The coat of arms is framed by a garland of ears of wheat, tobacco and poppy, tied by a ribbon with the pattern of a traditional costume. In the centre of such a circular space there are mountains, rivers, lakes and the sun; where the ears join there is a red five-pointed star. All this represents "the richness of our country, the struggle and the freedom".

The source is http://flagspot.net/flags/yu_fy-mk.html#coa

You can also find excerpt from the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Croatia (of the time) which describes the Coat of arms of the Socialist Republic of Croatia. Janko Ehrlich-Zdvorak home page and his page dedicated to Croatian flags.

You are very well aware that the Republic of Serbia continued using as the official Coat of arms of the Republic of Serbia the CoA of its predeceesor the Socialist Republic of Serbia but the Constitution of the Republic of Serbia (1990-2006) did not describe the CoA (as had been in the past) this has not stopped to affect the description of the Coat of arms of the Republic of Serbia as regulated by the Law on the usage of the Coat of arms of the Socialist Republic of Serbia.

Thus even if the Republic of Macedonia has not described the CoA of the Republic of Macedonia the description is used from the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia (the predeceesor of the Republic of Macedonia).

In light of these facts I hope that you would reconsider and not insert "symbols of Communism" in the article Coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia.

Please stop reverting and this defamation of the symbols of the Republic of Macedonia.

Imbris (talk) 02:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I meant, if the symbolism of the red star in the COA of Macedonia was different than Communist, I would accept that, too. I must say , I even love your idea that the red star was a Yugoslav patriotic symbol and has no political character (communist ideology), but it is not. Your 'facts' are not facts. You need a source that clearly says that it is a non-communist symbol, what meaning/symbolism the red star has, why it was used by the Partisans (which were overwhelmingly Communists) since 1941, ... I tell you what a 'Yugoslav patriotic symbol ' is, it's the blue-white-red tricolor. That's a Yugoslav patriotic symbol (with no political background)! The red star was used by the Partisans because they where overwhelmingly Communists and aimed to build Socialism in Yugoslavia. Cukiger (talk) 02:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

To Cukiger --- Plain dark blue-white-red tricolour is not a symbol without political background. It could not be considered as a symbol of Yugoslavia because it symbolized the Karageorgievitch Regime and the national and social oppressions and inequalities of that Regime. It symbolizes the Serbian and Montenegrin attempt to rule Yugoslavia by forced installing puppet governments in Novi Sad, Pristina and Titograd. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia symbolises unsolved national questions of many nations, unconstitutional laws, exploitation of many regions (especially Vojvodina), military rule in Kosovo, negation of ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Montenegrins, rigged elections, murders of political opposition leaders and academics involved in Albanian language and culture (Milan Schufflay). The blue-white-red tricolour could not ever be considered a Yugoslav patriotic symbol (even current Serbian greater-nationalists call it a symbol of delusions). -- Imbris (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Yugoslavism. There is Yugoslav model of Socialism, but no sauch thinkg as Yugoslavism. The Red Star found on the Coat of Arms or the R.Macedonia is the same red star found on the Coat of Arms of the other federate republics, and same with the red stars found on all former Soviet republics. The red star on the Coat of Arm is a symbol of Socialism/Communism. --Revizionist (talk) 15:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I have first and foremost stated that the five pointed red star is a symbol of Yugoslavia. Then I mentioned Yugoslavism with respect to a fact that in Yugoslavia there was a nationality which was called Yugoslav(s). If there is Titoism then there is also Yugoslavism as a social, political or even anthropological fact. I have stated this as a way to explain to Cukiger that the five pointed red star was a symbol of Yugoslav National Liberation Struggle during the World War II. It is a simple fact that the National Liberation Struggle was lead by members of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia (at the time consisted of only two subsidiaries - the Communist Party of Croatia and the Communist Party of Slovenia, since others were founded after the World War II). But it is also a simple fact that guerrilla combatants were not all Communist nor Socialist but simple workers and peasants which represented a sub-class during the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (latter Kingdom of Yugoslavia).

The entire debate on ideologies and partisans (firstly calling themselves guerrilla) and Communism and Socialism mean nothing with respect to the symbols of the Republic of Macedonia of today.

The red star has always been a symbol of the National Liberation Struggle common to all of the Nations of Yugoslavia. It has been decided that the five pointed red star would became a symbol of the National Liberation Army and Partisan Units of Yugoslavia at the military-political meeting in Stolice, a small mining village near Krupanj in the vicinity of a larger town of Valjevo. Up to the end of October 1941 it was a Supreme Command which entered into history at the 26th September 1941 (in the morning) when the famous Military-political Consultations started in Stolice. It was the first meeting of the functionaries of the National Liberation Struggle since the Historical Session in Belgrade when it was decided to star the National Uprising (latter National Liberation Struggle).

Among other (even more important) decisions it was decided as early as then that the five pointed red star is a symbol of the National Liberation Partisan Units, and that it be placed on the National flags of all the nations participating in the National Liberation Struggle.

Your opinions may be invalid because Cukiger and Revizionist insist the five pointed yellow hemmed red star is a Communist symbol in order to further up their own morals upon historical facts.

It is not I who should prove that it was not a Communist symbol but you are the ones who should prove that it was something. It is error in logic to force someone to determine that something was not something. It is just not possible to work this way. I have tried to grant your wishes and found this information, now you are the one who should (if not satisfied) found sources that further your belief that the five pointed red star was a Communist symbol in Yugoslavia.

Hammer and sickle was the Communist symbol all around the world and not the red star. Flag of Vietnam has a yellow star, Flag of Angola a five-pointed star within half a cogwheel crossed by a machete (in the style of a hammer and sickle), People's Republic of Bangladesh has a red disc (the red sun of freedom represents the blood shed to achieve independence) or Flag of Zimbabwe (…red five-pointed star in the centre of the white triangle, which symbolizes peace and red which symbolizes blood shed to achieve independence…)

If Revizionist would dignify to look at the question of reverting he would notice that I changed the wording from a Communist symbol to a National Liberation symbol during World War II. What is wrong with that?

Imbris (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Provide one - please, just one reliable sources about the lion. The Macedonian Heraldic association site is laughable at best. --Laveol ^T 20:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The Bulgarian section has not a single whatever source. Yes, laughable just like Bulgarian historiography. Cukiger (talk) 20:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I has some doubt as to how to add a ref to a section that is bellow the refs, but let's say this will suffice. Is this ok or you want the other 40 sources as well? Seriously, there are 40 at least. A couple for every image. Bulgarian, Arabic, Russian, German - any problem with those?--Laveol ^T 20:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

You asked for a source and there you have it. If it was for me, it is silly to source these pictures. Cukiger (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Cause the site is at amateur level at the least and it claims a continuity which obviously isn't there. Or in other words it makes laughable claims with no references behind them. --Laveol ^T 21:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Did I use the word 'why'? No. Cukiger (talk) 21:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

You know you meant it ;) --Laveol ^T 21:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Who are you to judge and disrespect another's nation historical symbol. And why does your land use our lion? Provide a source for that (teritorial claims it seems to me), but us we already know none realizes his own sickness. Tell me please, in which way this lion is not representing macedonia? Vlatko (talk) 12:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Pfff, how about you ask a real question and stop with the fantasy allegations. --Laveol ^T 20:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, you can't answer any of the above stated, after all. Probably because you don't think only repeat. What are you doing here?

Pff, I must note this is the smartest word in your dictionary. Stop loosing the time here, it's better.85.187.224.169 (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

What are the POV concerns

Laveol? You refer to the lion or to the red star? Cukiger (talk) 02:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's obvious. I haven't raised any questions about the star. --Laveol ^T 09:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You didn't. You wanted a source for the lion. Now we have two. That's not enough for you? As I said, I think it is silly to source these pictures of the lion with the inscription 'Macedoniae', but anyway. There you have your compromise. So the tag should be removed. Cukiger (talk) 16:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Arms of what?

• 
  Coat of arms of Bulgaria by Zhefarovich 1741. His version of the arms of Macedonia (region) is heraldically almost the same, with inverted shield and lion tinctures]]
• Coat of arms of Macedonia (region) 1620
  Coat of arms of Macedonia (region) 1620

Look, I hope I'm not expecting too high a level of comprehension when I mean that those are coats of arms of the region. I'm not saying they're not relevant: your country is in the region so they are relevant, and I have nothing against the gallery remaining in the article. But the corrections that I'm inserting have a very solid base: the user has to be reminded that these are not arms of a country but arms of a region that also spans Greece and Bulgaria. Simple as that: a country that has been independent since the 1990s and has been an entity since the 1940s can't have a coat of arms from the 16th century, okay? It's called anachronism and it's not something to eat.

Now, why the coat of arms of the region of Macedonia has a lion rampant on it and a symbol of what population that is, I'll not discuss because I'll risk being flooded with personal attacks like "nationalist friend". But I think it's quite clear the heraldists had the correct idea about the ethnic population of the region: the lion has been an attested Bulgarian heraldic symbol since the 14th century. No offence meant, but by adding those old arms of the region you're simply confirming your Bulgarian past. You don't want that, do you? :) Todor→Bozhinov 17:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hahaha, How do you explain "coat of arms of the region", any source for that, since when it is a region? You try to convince even your self whats up to me in a (by your way) "clear belief". And how did the lion became a coat of Bulgaria? I must agree its a good pic (but that must not be the reason for being a coat ). Vlatko ^T 21:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Bulgarian past :) :) Aha, so that's the reason for adding your contributions. So it is not that wrong if someone calls you a 'nationalist'. Take a look at the coat of arms of Nemanjic (from the beginning of the second mil.), the Macedonian coa is clearly different from the bulgarian one. The bulgarian lion is red on a yellow background in the coat of arms. Fubre (talk) 21:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

1340 coa of South Slavic lands

and here the coat of arms I talked off. the first coa is the Macedonian one (upper left corner), the bulgarian coa is marked under "D". Fubre (talk) 21:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• 
  1340 coa of Macedonia
• 
  1340 coa of Bulgaria

I think the difference is obvious. ;) Fubre (talk) 21:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Vlatko, what you just wrote showed some complete incompetence, no offence mate. Apparently, the guys over at the heraldry department were aware that a Macedonia existed back when they made those arms, and apparently, a Macedonian state never existed before the 20th century. How much more apparent would it be that the arms in question represent a historical geographic region? What else would they represent in your opinion? A bucket of chicken? Think about it! There are arms of Thrace from the same period and needless to say Thrace was never a state.

And why should I care how the lion became a symbol of Bulgaria? It just happened to be so, and its use as a symbol of Bulgaria is older than its use as a symbol of the Macedonian region. What am I supposed to give as an answer to that question anyway? That the lion is a very cool animal and it's in line with the Bulgarian fighting spirit or that we used to grow lions in Bulgaria as pets? Please, read your questions aloud before posting them, it saves us some time.

Fubre, you might want the Nemanjić and Tito back but that's not my cup of tea. Of course the Macedonian arms has inverted tinctures in some representations, didn't you read the image captions of the arms I posted above? I don't say it's supposed to be identical, I say it's related to the Bulgarian arms, quite possibly derived from it. If you're denying the Bulgarian history of Macedonia, then you might as well join the Flat Earth Society. And what's a "nationalist" supposed to mean? I'm not a racist nor a jingoist, I just love my country. But how's that related to the matter at hand? Don't you love yours? Todor→Bozhinov 21:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Incompetence, Well my mate, as I do know that coat is Macedonian (Macedonian people), As you know in Macedonia live also Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians, they use different coat, but the Macedonians use the lion. Afcourse, your opinion here is more than relevant, it just happend that the lion is a coat of Bulgaria, than why do you care about our lion, do not forget England, Norway ... etc. I do not question your knowledge, you sure know to much, as long as you use it for right, but not for pushing on your interpretation, maybe a reanalisation of your knowing is far enough to move you forward. We'll surely end in an endless discussion. I simply want to tell you that we are not stupid, and you wont enjoy a moment when the world will become your own "wish",but on contrary.Vlatko ^T 23:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)