Talk:Halloween

Archiving

I propose that a bot be invited to archive this page periodically. Is there consensus?--otherlleft (talk) 01:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

It's been a couple weeks since I asked this question. Certainly a lack of response isn't consensus, but I'm going to be bold and install a bot. Any objections, feel free to revert.--otherlleft (talk) 21:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Classed as a Scotland related article?

This header was presumably added by an editor suggesting that this action be taken. I have added this comment so that it can be archived at a suitable time.--otherlleft (talk) 16:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

An overview of primary sources would be nice

It would be good to know what the primary sources are that document the link between Samhain and Halloween. A sort of short overview of what we know and how we know it. A previous request for such sources has been archived,Talk:Halloween/Archive_12#Dispute, without ever having been answered.

Such an overview would include some descriptions of the earliest Halloween celebrations to have been documented. My dictionary gives the earliest use of the name Halloween as the 16th century. What was the holiday called before the 16th century? How was it celebrated? How do we know?

Rwflammang (talk) 11:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like better minds than mine have been pondering these same questions. Scroll down a bit on the link. Rwflammang (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

National holiday?

for the record!

Thanks for providing a link to this interesting and influential source. Rwflammang (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Halloween dates back before ireland, to the Celts, who lived 2,000 years ago in the area that is now Ireland, the United Kingdom, and northern France, celebrated their new year on November 1. This day marked the end of summer and the harvest and the beginning of the dark, cold winter, a time of year that was often associated with human death. Celts believed that on the night before the new year, the boundary between the worlds of the living and the dead became blurred. On the night of October 31, they celebrated Samhain, when it was believed that the ghosts of the dead returned to earth.

I have two questions about this. (1) From what I understand from the Coligny Calendar and Tacitus, the Celts had a lunisolar calendar, so I don't see how they could have celebrated new year on Nov 1, except occasionally. It's kind of like saying, "Christians celebate Easter on April 1st", which is only true every 29 years or so. My second question (2) is how do we know what the Celts believed 2000 years ago? Who recorded the belief that the boundary between the Netherworld and Earth was "blurred" on Oct 31st? Rwflammang (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

-note- the catholics adopted this festival because it closely followed their holy-day of "all souls day" -note-

All Souls' Day follows Halloween; Halloween does not follow All Souls' Day. Rwflammang (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

In addition to causing trouble and damaging crops, Celts thought that the presence of the otherworldly spirits made it easier for the Druids, or Celtic priests, to make predictions about the future. For a people entirely dependent on the volatile natural world, these prophecies were an important source of comfort and direction during the long, dark winter.

What does the historical record say about the Druids making predictions on Halloween? Who recorded this information? Have these records ever been published, or do they only exist in manuscript? Rwflammang (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

To commemorate the event, Druids built huge sacred bonfires, where the people gathered to burn crops and animals as sacrifices to the Celtic deities.

During the celebration, the Celts wore costumes, typically consisting of animal heads and skins, and attempted to tell each other's fortunes. When the celebration was over, they re-lit their hearth fires, which they had extinguished earlier that evening, from the sacred bonfire to help protect them during the coming winter.

By A.D. 43, Romans had conquered the majority of Celtic territory. In the course of the four hundred years that they ruled the Celtic lands, two festivals of Roman origin were combined with the traditional Celtic celebration of Samhain.

Video: The haunting History of All Hallow's Eve (Halloween). Video: Timothy Dickinson tells the intriguing tale of why we celebrate Halloween, and it's evolution from Samhain, an ancient Celtic Harvest Festival.

How do we know Samhain is an ancient Celtic harvest festival? The earliest records I know of describe it as a midieval Irish royal festival. Rwflammang (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The first was Feralia, a day in late October when the Romans traditionally commemorated the passing of the dead. The second was a day to honor Pomona, the Roman goddess of fruit and trees. The symbol of Pomona is the apple and the incorporation of this celebration into Samhain probably explains the tradition of "bobbing" for apples that is practiced today on Halloween.

The date of the Feralia is well documented as being in February, not October. Rwflammang (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

By the 800s, the influence of Christianity had spread into Celtic lands. In the seventh century, Pope Boniface IV designated November 1 All Saints' Day, a time to honor saints and martyrs. It is widely believed today that the pope was attempting to replace the Celtic festival of the dead with a related, but church-sanctioned holiday. The celebration was also called All-hallows or All-hallowmas (from Middle English Alholowmesse meaning All Saints' Day) and the night before it, the night of Samhain, began to be called All-hallows Eve and, eventually, Halloween. Even later, in A.D. 1000, the church would make November 2 All Souls' Day, a day to honor the dead. It was celebrated similarly to Samhain, with big bonfires, parades, and dressing up in costumes as saints, angels, and devils. Together, the three celebrations, the eve of All Saints', All Saints', and All Souls', were called Hallowmas. for the record, the word Halloween is a latin based word from the later roman or (old English) cathlic. Ween - meaning to think, and hallo - meaning holy. Originally it was called Hallows'eve which would be translated: "the day before all think holy" day. all think holy day is "all saints day."

This etymolgy strikes me as quite fanciful. The origin of the word Halloween as a contraction of All Hallows' Eve is well known. Hallows is a now archaic word meaning saints. So All Hallows' Eve means All Saints' Eve, which is a good name for the eve of All Saints Day. I take it that the phrase, "It is widely believed today that..." is a euphemism for "there is no evidence that...". The irony here is that the original date of All Saints in the spring was indeed deliberately placed to coincide with an ancient pagan holiday, the anniversary of the dedication of the Pantheon. I don't know of any old pagan holiday on November 1st, but I would be happy if someone could document one. Rwflammang (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

. . .

...references: history.com/minisites/halloween/viewpage?pageid=713

"America Pressure?"

I take exception with your statement that:

"Halloween celebrations in England were popularised in the late 20th century under the pressure of American cultural influence..."

First, it smacks of modern anti-Americanism. Also, it raises the question as to why those very countries that protest such culteral influences are the very ones who opt to adopt said culture so strongly.

Second, your suggestion that any culture exerts "pressure" is by definition based on you opionion, and not fact. I note that you provide no source. Does a diamond pressure anyone to dig it up?

You note that Autralia is under this "pressure" from 'The Simnpsons" TV program, yet state that they have not succumbed to the same pressure that England has. Are Austrailians immune, then, down under? Indeed, the very (small) Australian newspaper you cite states clearly that those who have adopted Halloween are looking for an "excuse for a party." Accordingly could it be that the invincible force of North American television is no more than an Australian urge to clebrate something in October? Do you honestly contend that a few annual episodes of an American televsion show wield such culteral influence? And, if it could, would the pressure best be called 'American culture,' or rather the human desire to find amusement in sit-coms, and Halloween?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Free322001 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 

Date of Hallowe'en

As I understand it, this year (2008), Hallowe'en was actually on 1st Nov. The reason is that Hallowe'en is defined as the day before All Saints Day, which in turn is the day before All Souls Day. BUT, All Souls Day cannot fall on a Sunday. Therefore, in 2008, Sunday was All Saints, Monday is All Souls, and Saturday 1st was Hallowe'en, rather than the usual 31st Oct. Of course, most people celebrate on 31st, or take advantage and do both! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.171.29 (talk) 01:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you. I am from Italy and as far as I know, all my life All Saints' Day has been on 1st November and All Souls' Day (which we call il Giorno dei Morti = the Day of the Dead) has always been on the 2nd November, regardless of the day of the week it falls. The 1st November is always a Holy Day as well as a day off work. The Italian entry in Wikipedia for Ognissanti (all saints' day) also states that it is always on 1st November. This might provide a useful insight on All Saints' Day celebrations in Italy: <http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/recipes/view.cfm?id=1379> Sandra

To GA and beyond

To all those interested in bring Halloween back up to GA class (and more), there is a discussion going on right here. Any and all comments are welcome! RockManQ ^(talk) 18:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The history of Halloween

“Elements of the customs connected with Halloween can be traced to a Druid [ancient Celtic priesthood] ceremony in pre-Christian times. The Celts had festivals for two major gods—a sun god and a god of the dead . . . , whose festival was held on November 1, the beginning of the Celtic New Year. The festival of the dead was gradually incorporated into Christian ritual.”

In many cultures a single event, Festival of the Dead, lasting up to 3 days, was held at the end of October and beginning of November; examples include the Peruvians, the Hindus, the Pacific Islanders, the people of the Tonga Islands, the Australians, the ancient Persians, the ancient Egyptians, the Japanese, ancient Romans, and the northern nations of Europe. see Festival of the Dead. Ayamarca, (November) in the incas languages mean Festival of the Dead.

The 17th day Heshvan (Bul) which is the second the month of ancient Jewish secular year. Genesis 7:11 - The demons dematerialized when the Flood came. Genesis 6:1-4; for Jude 6. - The Nephilim hybrid the offspring of the demons drowned. Genesis 6:4. This corresponds to the October-November period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.60.200 (talk) 09:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Most commonly?

"Other western countries embraced the holiday in the late twentieth century. Halloween is celebrated in several countries of the Western world, most commonly in the United States, Canada, Ireland, Puerto Rico, Japan, and the United Kingdom."

--What makes these countries more significant on Halloween than other countries? I'm sure that other countries celebrate the night as well. And I don't see any references stating that these particular countries more commonly celebrate Halloween than the rest of the world. Unless I see some specific references, I am pulling that particular sentence out of the article.

Loghead1 (talk) 17:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)