Talk:Kingdom of Israel (Samaria)

What is the basis of this revised chronology? What support does it have, outside of the people who created it? The way that it is presented, it appears as if it is being claimed that virtually no one accepts this. If so, why does this chronology predominate in this entry? Shouldn't speculative theories have their own entry? I am not against discussing this topic, I just want to know why a speculative topic with (it seems) little outside support is the only point of view here. (Or maybe I am missing something.)

Awkward phrase

Does anyone know precisely what this means and if it is NPOV or not? --Dante Alighieri 01:24 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

line 80

Our system does not need the introduction of many arbitrary co-regencies and overlappings between rulers.

Makes no sense to me. What system are we talking about, and what's wrong with including co-regencies and overlapping rulers if they're true? -- Zoe

I modified the article in the sense I felt was intended. Feel free to modify or even revert my changes. It found it easier to modify there than to answer here. FvdP 01:39 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Chronology

I am kind of confused by this chronology. As you admit, it is not the standard chronology. I think that the commonly accepted chronology should be given equal space (actually, I think it should be given priority, but I am willing to go for equal space), with comments given as to why certain of these dates are disputed.

That said, certain assumptions of this chronology do not stand the test of contemporary scholarship. We have independent corroboration of certain kings, and we can assume that some of the dynastic histories are accurate from a certain point. Unfortunately, we have no corroborative evidence that Solomon actually existed or ruled an empire. All that we know about him appears in the biblical texts. Given that, the division of the kingdom between Rehoboam and Jeroboam is a questionable historical event as well. In fact, most contemporary scholars will argue that there were always two kingdoms with certain common cultural traits, which merged with the collapse of Israel (the North) in 721/722 (by merged I mean that an influx of refugees caused the two societies to consolidate, and it was therefore necessary to recreate a common mythological history for them out of disparate but similar traditions).

In other words, the earlier the dating, the more questionable it becomes. Danny

Whoa there, Danny. :) I think you might be the only one who has any clue as to the actual content of this article. As I understand it, FvdP, Zoe and I were just talking about the formatting and language involved. You don't have to convince us if you'd like to change the text, go for it! --Dante Alighieri 01:56 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Yes, go for it. FvdP 02:03 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

LOL! Actually, this is pretty much my field. I just seem some pretty strange dates, which someone is arguing are more accurate, but I am not really clear on why. Danny

Well dig in! The Wikipedia loves experts! Feel free to alter the text to make it more NPOV or to change information which you know to be false (providing documentation is nice) or to merely offer more paragraphs explaining just why it is that some of the OTHER paragraphs are problematic. Best of luck! --Dante Alighieri 02:08 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

As I said a long time ago, the Easton stuff is so hopelessly outdated that it really doesn't contribute much to a field (biblical studies) that is undergoing some major revolutions thanks to recent archeological, philological, sociological and geographic/geological discoveries, among other things. Nor do I want to get into POV arguments with people who pick up on unorthodox new theories without having the slightest background in the traditional scholarship (in other words, people who read one funky book or article on a subject and think they're ready to present their "findings" at the next international symposium). Been there, done that. Maybe over the weekend. Too tired tonite, though. Danny

This article has been compromised by an amateur speculative chronology; it has no academic support at all. There are no references, no journals, no research supporting. It is an amateur idea, made by someone using this entry as a support piece to publicize his iconoclastic views. Encyclopedia entries on history and chronology should be based on the latest and best available peer-reviewed historical research, not on personal speculation. This chronology is best deleted from this entry entirely. RK

This entry is an unnecessary duplication of the already extant, and well-written article, History of ancient Israel and Judah. Can we just delete this article, and redirect it there? RK

Actually, the Kingdom of Israel is a subject that deserves an article. As for the chronology, it is unorthodox, but I would like to get a better look at it and see what the points of difference are and why they conflict with the more conventional chronologies. Who knows? It may have some good points too. Like I said, I'm too tired to do that now. Gimme a couple of days. Meanwhile, let's put the chronology back. Danny

Hebrew

This is the English Wikipedia. If we keep the Hebrew lettering, which I dispute, can we make it secondary to the English? And can we use the English spellings and the correct links to the articles about all of these kings? RickK 20:59, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC)

Re: Hebrew

In what way do you dispute the Hebrew - it's inclusion or it's accuracy?

In view of the cultural aspects of the region under discussion I am convinced it makes an interesting addition to the knowledgebase, and as to whether it should be placed before or after the English (which is in any case quite distinct on the page, regardless) is a point of preference only, and being the one to take up this edit, I have invoked my own, albeit subjective, preference.

I am considering also using the ancient Hebrew forms as well.

Look out for my forthcoming editions of the Arabic/Slavic/Japanese and ancient Egyptian pages also. --JohnArmagh 21:08, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I see no reason why there are problems with including the extra linguistic information in appropriate articles (and this is). Where possible, I include relevant Irish language terms (in italics, secondary to English, or with English explanation) in articles about Ireland.

Zoney 10:03, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support Zoney in his use of the Irish language in appropriate articles.

So that makes two in favour - one against, so far

--JohnArmagh 11:58, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Whatever about your dispute about including the Hebrew in the first place - it makes NO sense to include it without the transliteration / pronunciation guide. Zoney 00:18, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thankyou Zoney - the point that RickK is missing is that it is precisely because this is the English Wikipedia that where non-roman characters are used they are accompanied by the transcribed text. RickK has said he considers putting this issue as a Request For Comment - I hope he does so - I would certainly do so if I could.

--JohnArmagh 05:27, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Done. See Wikipedia:Requests for comment RickK 04:52, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)

Good. --JohnArmagh 05:40, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I approve of the Hebrew versions of the names. They are useful for people who can read Hebrew, and do no harm to other readers. Inclusion of foreign scripts is fine as long as the article follows Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Articles on many subjects with names from Arabic, Chinese, Japanese and other languages use English words or transliterations followed by the original term in the foreign script. If it's a good idea for Chinese, I don't see why it isn't a good idea for Hebrew. Just put the English transliteration first. Gdr 22:27, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)

I have NO problem with the Hebrew script -- it's the non-standard transliterations from Hebrew into non-English which I am objecting to. RickK 22:29, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I see. You didn't make that clear in your comments above. Does Wikipedia have a standard for romanization of Hebrew? I did a brief search and couldn't find one (Hebrew language has an ad-hoc romanization scheme). Is it possible to accurately romanize names from Ancient Hebrew? Gdr 23:06, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)

Yes, they're Saul, David, Solomon, etc. RickK 23:07, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

The problem is then, that the Hebrew is not actually pronounced 'Saul, 'David' or 'Solomon' etc. So to transcribe them as such is would not only be inaccurate but would present this inaccurate information as fact.

'Shaul' is the transcription, whereas 'Saul' is the Anglicization of the name, which is already listed under the Common/Biblical name. --JohnArmagh 04:46, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, Saul, David, Solomon etc. are already in the article. But those are the English names for the kings, not accurate transliterations from the Hebrew. In other languages it's not controversial to have three versions of a name: (1) the English name; (2) the name in the foreign script; (3) an accurate transliteration of the name. For example the Mt. Fuji article has (1) "Mount Fuji", (2) 富士山 and (3) Fuji-san. Gdr 09:47, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)

This seems to be resolved: see User_talk:RickK. So I removed this page from cleanup. Gdr 21:32, 2004 Jul 14 (UTC)

Historicity of Israel

This article reads far too much like a biblical commentary, and rests far too much on biblical texts as historical citations. The Jewish scriptures are not historical documents and cannot be used unsupported as historical evidence. As I'm sure people interested in this subject are aware, the historicty of the Kingdom of Israel is being called into question by opponents of modern Zionism. This article must therefore base itself in sound historical scholarhip. I would like someone familiar with the historiography of this topic to rewrite this article accordingly. Adam 10:12, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have to say (and speaking as a Christian) that my thoughts were the same as yours upon first reading the text. It does have a theologocal aspect rather than a strictly historical one. Not that there is not a place for such an article, however I feel that the narrative of article should be more consistent with the style of other state histories. --JohnArmagh 04:46, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I should correct something I said in the above comment. Of course the Jewish scriptures are historical documents - what I meant was that they are not documents written by historians. They are historical sources, but cannot be used on their own as conclusive evidence. The history of the Kingdom of Israel will take the Jewish scriptures into account, but must also be grounded in archaeology and whatever other sources are available. If the Jewish scriptures are the only evidence for the Kingdom of Israel then its historicity will indeed be called into question. Adam 05:07, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The biblical account of the ancient existence of Israel as the name of a federation and then a kingdom is supported by Egyptian, Moabite, Assyrian and Babylonian inscriptions. The instances where names of Israel's and Judah's kings are mentioned in the various inscriptions largely correspond with the biblical records. Fire Star 14:30, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The hebrew names are all wrong. How can I correct them?

In response to the update by 80.230.142.96: The Hebrew used in the table is from A Hebrew - English Bible According to the Masoretic Text at http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm which uses the vowel-less text extant at the time (though the alphabet used is contemporary Hebrew rather than the ancient Hebrew of the time). --JohnArmagh 14:08, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Map

Any chance anyone has time to create a map, this article could use one? Falphin 23:06, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Jehu 841 BC date

The dissenting scholars point out that all Israelite kings were called "son of Omri", whether they were of the Omrite dynasty or not; that the date of the inscription is in question; and that Assyrian kings frequently "stole" accomplishments from their predecessors to increase their own glory in the eyes of history. The obelisk is the earliest depiction of an Israelite in ancient history.

I'm not sure that this should be in here at all. The first argument doesn't seem like an argument to me at all. Jehu was not of the Omrite dynasty, so I don't see how him being called son of Omri makes the identification more questionable. The rest of it seems like special pleading - I am not aware of any actual mainstream scholars who dispute the 841 BC Jehu synchronism. john k 02:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Font

At the start of the article there is the text: Standard Hebrew Malḫut Yisraʼel, Tiberian Hebrew Malḵûṯ Yiśrāʼēl). In my browser I see squares between the "l" and "u" and "a" and "e" of the Standard Hebrew version, and similarly for the Tiberian Hebrew version. I think I have the most common set-up (certainly I use Internet Explorer). Could someone change the font to make it legible to more readers? Thanks in advance, jguk 07:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

BC/BCE - reminder of sitewide de facto compromise

First, BC is not Christian-centric (as explained on other pages ad infinitum), and is perfectly neutral in sense - no-one thinks it means anything other than a device to show dates. And besides, this argument has been discussed in great detail elsewhere on Wikipedia. The only form of consensus that has been able to retain the peace is to not change articles from BCE to BC or vice versa. No participant in the great Wikipedia BC v BCE debate is entirely happy with that compromise, I am sure - but it is all we've got to keep the peace. That means all sides respect it (both those that, for whatever reason, prefer BCE and those who, for whatever reason, prefer BC). In the case of this article the "no change" compromise means that it should stay using "BC". Please respect this in the interests of wikipeace, if nothing else, jguk 06:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course it is Christian-centric and, having denominationally neutral and commonly accepted alternative Common Era (BCE/CE), your insistence on inserting Before Christ/Anno domini (BC/AD) into articles related to Jewish history is offensive. Why spill this talk here? Continue at Talk:Kingdom of Judah#BCE/CE again. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 07:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

HS - can you point to any policy in defense of your position? I agree, though, that there's no good reason to pollute this talk page with this poisonous discussion, as well. john k 15:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

WP:CIV ←Humus sapiens←ну? 22:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

That is a policy which has no relationship to whether or not we can put BC/AD into articles. john k 23:59, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

It is not POV to have B.C. and A.D. in there there was a big debate in June about this which voted something like 90 votes to 60 to keep the policy of both being used. Besides B.C.E. is the exact same thing as B.C. There is no difference. It should be noted that Kingdom of Israel is part of Jewish, Christian, and to a lesser degree Muslim history. It really doesn't matter. Falphin 22:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

See Talk:Kingdom of Judah#BCE/CE again. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 22:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I realize that discussion took a long time but I'm sorry as pointeed out by Jguk the current wikipedia policy is to not change it one way or the other and B.C. is no more christian centric than the months and days of the year being Roman centric. Falphin 23:19, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I hope we are not going to have to reproduce the discussion from Talk:Kingdom of Judah#BCE/CE again here. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:46, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The issue with that compromise is that it wasn't site wide, and should of been sent through village pump but wasn't. While some articles do deserve special privelages or restrictions I don't see how Kingdom of Israel or Kingdom of Judah would. I'm not in opposition to the use B.C.E. as long as Jguk agrees(to prevent edit war; if he doesn't then the status quo of BC/AD remains by default) because it means the same thing. The point is to avoid getting in an edit war. And as part of the discussion it was agreed that BC/AD is not biased so it would be incorrect to label it as so.(just a clarification of my above point.) Falphin 23:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean - but the "no change" compromise is the best one we have at present. I edit in accorance with it (my edits over at Jerusalem were an error on this point), I urge every other user to accept that compromise too, jguk 06:23, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

As previously discussed, I have adjusted the article back to how it was before Humus sapiens's amendment of the date style, jguk 07:17, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the BCE campaigners would be interested in a brief history of the style on this page.

• Date notation first used. All "BC" - 31 December 2001 [1]
• Date notation changed - 4 December 2002 [2]
• All date notation removed - 5 December 2002 [3][4]
• Date notation partially changed back to BC - 3 April 2003 [5]
• Consistency restored on BC notation - 1 December 2003 [6]
• Inconsistency restored - 23 December 2003 [7]. Throughout this period of inconsistency, BC remains the dominant form
• Consistency restored on BC notation - 24 October 2004 [8]
• Notation changed to use BCE notation - 9 May 2005 [9]
• Notation changed back - 11 July 2005 [10] [11]
• Present edit war commences - 1 October 2005 [12]

As can be seen, essentially this article has been stable on BC for much of its time, and it was quite stable before the recent edit war, which started after User:Humus sapiens changed the style on 1 October.

In total Humus sapiens has made 10 edits to impose his preferred style on the article, reverting at least 3 editors in doing so. Sortan, which has been identified as a disruptive pro-BCE role account by a number of individuals, has reverted once to support Humus sapiens, Briangotts has made one revert to add BCE, and CDThieme two. These people have been reverted two times by Codex Sinaiticus, twice by John Kenney, and myself eight times.

All this hasn't gotten very far, and has not improved the article one bit. Last week I pulled out of the argument to the weekend to allow the pro BCE-ers to reflect on the WP "no change" policy - it is unfortunate that they have continued to ignore it, especially as their preferred notation is hardly known amongst the general public either. I will make one more edit and then lay off till the weekend. I have suggested that all sides accept the "no change" compromise, and noted that whilst that would mean this page remains on BC, others will under than compromise remain on BCE. I don't see what other compromise we could have at the moment without increasing these battles sitewide. I urge everyone to accept it, jguk 19:01, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Your "compromise" does not match your edits. Earlier today you removed CE notation from Khazars; the stated reason was "rv - as noted before, WP:MOS apparently mandates this change, which helps improve the readability of the article too)". Of course, MOS states nothing of the sort; indeed, it states explicitly that appending CE to a date is acceptable. What is apparent is that you are promoting your POV by changing dating system in a wide array of articles; in each case you assert a reason that seems to work for you in that situation. Briangotts (talk) 19:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)