Talk:Chicken tikka masala

• "even by Indians" Should we really call them Indians? I have a feeling that the word is more associated with Native Americans than people living in India Leszek 23:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Only a USAsian would be so ill-educated, self-centered and racist as to think that the word Indian referred to an American.

• • Then what would we call the people of India? India-ers?
    • Maybe Hindus? That's what the Indians disambiguation page says is an altenative name for them Leszek 19:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Hindi is a language. Hinduism is the religion, and its practitioners are Hindus. The word you're looking for is Hindustani ("-stan", land)

• • Clue: can you work out why the European visitors to the Americas called the indigenous peoples "Indians"? -- ALoan (Talk) 18:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

All this talk about Indian is non-sensical. World isnt America and Wikipedia isnt America. It is not upto non-Americans to accomodate American misnomers. अमेय आरयन AMbroodEY 07:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Fun fact! Lessek appears to be from Poland, not the U.S. Don't you think it's stereotypical to assume it's always Americans who think this way, then go on jeremaids about how the world isn't the U.S. and how "Wikipedia isn't America?" Apart from the fact that Wikipedia was concieved by Americans, of course.

What are you talking about, more associated with Native Americans?! That's the most ridiculous thing I have EVER heard. An Indian is someone from India, how could you ever misunderstand that?

Seconded. The more problematic issue is that many (most?) "Indian" restaurants in the UK aren't run by Indians but by people from neighbouring countries such as Bangladesh. The language lacks a decent word to refer to all people from this region - "asian" seems to be the best we've got, but it doesn't sound right to my ears and also has the minor downside of confusing Americans. It's a shame Desi isn't more widely used. PeteVerdon 18:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

South Asian, surely? That covers India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and maybe Bhutan (though Bhutan is culturally fairly different). BovineBeast 19:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In the UAE, subcontinental (subcon for short) is often used as a shorthand for people from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka

Well, the British taste for Indian (Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Punjabi, ...) cuisine started in British India before Partition, so "Indian" is not entirely inappropriate, unless you are suggesting that "Italian" restaurants have to be staffed by people from Florence and Naples? -- ALoan (Talk) 23:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't saying it was a particular problem with this article, just making a general observation. (And airing my dislike of the term "asian" in this context.) PeteVerdon 00:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It never ceases to amaze me how Americans are blind to that small bit of land between the Middle East and China commonly referred to as "Asia" by the rest of the world. Perhaps it was institutionalised in the 1950s as a cunning plan to disguise the true size of the USSR. Although it still doesn't explain how India has managed to end up in North America. --JamesTheNumberless 13:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I am interested in the correct meaning of the word 'tikka', in general and in this particular context. -- <email address removed>

"Tikka" is a method of cooking meat marinated in yoghurt and spices in a tandoori or clay oven. Whereas tandoori chicken is cooed on the bone in large pieces for tikka the meat is cut into bite-size pieces.

Incidentally I ate tikka masala -- chicken I think, but it may have been lamb, in New Delhi in 1971. I was curious about the name (as I knew both tikka and masala separately) and asked the waiter for an explanation. He said the tikka'd meat was then cooked in a masala sauce.

Confusing line

What does this line mean?

This is also true of claims that "Leo and Oasis" from KUSU first invented the dish, Tom Smith however disputes this claim intently.

Sounds like a vanity edit to me --AW 22:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Origins

The British TV Programme QI revealed the origins of Chicken Tikka Masala as being from a curry house in Scotland (Glasgow or Edinburgh I think). It could probably be found on this site's QI Transcripts if you look closely enough. I initially put this on as fact, which it is - it was done by extensive QI researchers. That should go on as the true origin of Chicken Tikka Masala, as it has absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan or India apart from the ingredients used. Similarly, it is more important than "possibly from the British Isles" - it DID come from the British Isles. If WikiBooks has "The QI Book of General Ignorance", you may even find it in there. Alex Holowczak 13:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure the fact that QI have concluded this is the last word on the subject. I believe the OED has done some research though, will try to find out.

Pish, tosh. Do you know any 'researchers'? If they didn't just Google or swipe it from Wikipedia, then I'll eat my hat. Rogerborg 20:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Rogerborg.User:Guffydrawers —Preceding comment was added at 18:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The section on here about pronunciation seems a bit strange. Even if the Scots invented CTM they didn't coin the word "tikka".

Exile 19:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This is true that Scots never coined the word Tikka, however, the word has become anglicised in Scotland when refering to this particular dish. Tikka pronounced in the Scottish manner is perfectly legitimate, and is not an 'incorrect' pronunciation. Claims from south of the Scottish border that it is incorrect can be recieved quite badly in Scotland, so this section does seem useful or relevant.

Wikipedia is not a social anthropological bulletin board, so it's irrelevant. Neither is Wikipedia for original research, and it is unsupported by reference. That's two reasons to remove it, and so it's gone. Personally, as a native Scot living in Scotland (Glasgow, specifically), I have no problem with pronouncing it like a civilised human being. Any arguments in favour of accepting the gutteral gruntings of Rab C. Nesbitt as being representative of All True Scotchmen will be treated with the contempt that they deserve, as will your racist concern trolling. Rogerborg 20:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Aye right then, explain a couple things to me: Firstly, who gave you the right to say what pronunciation is civilized? And Racist? RACIST? Do you want to explain that one to me please?!

I am intrigued as to why there is such resistance to the Scottish pronunciation of Tikka being included on Wikipedia without including a horribly biased slant. If the culprit who keeps adding this slant could furnish me with some decent reasons why I would appreciate it.

It's irrelevant, and *you haven't provided a reference*. Are you having trouble understanding the basic idea of Wiki*pedia*? Rogerborg 20:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

You're not going to be the judge of what is relevant, the reference is forthcoming.

I would have thought because tikka is an Indian word (meaning BBQ'd Chicken), as opposed to a Scottish word, the Indian pronunciation would be the correct one?58.170.76.132 10:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I believe if you have a read of the discussion page on the Tikka disambiguation page you will find lots of wonderful information explaining why in Scotland there is a perfectly acceptable and recognised alternative pronunciation.

Hello from a Glaswegian tikka lover. If I understand correctly, this section implies Scottish people pronounce tikka as 'tick-a'. I was quite surprised to see this - I've lost count of the number of chicken tikka masalas I've ordered over the years in Scotland and particularly in Glasgow and every time it's been mentioned (including by the owners of restaurants serving the dish) it has been pronounced 'tee-ka'. Any other pronunciation is spoken by a tiny minority. I propose to remove or amend this section to reflect the facts. Neil McKillop 02:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh so you have the authority to say beacause you do not hear people saying it only a minority do, do you? That seems quite conceited. This section may be edited to show that in Scotland the dish can be pronounced either way and that tick-a is certainly not a wrong pronunciation, as this does cause a great deal of irritation to people in Scotland who are attempted to be corrected by people with your outlook "ooh I haven't heard it pronounced like that before, it must be wrong". A discussion on this subject can be viewed in the discussion section of the Tikka disambiguation page. Oh yes, I almost forgot, I did not realise restaurant owners were philologists... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.74.34 (talk) 09:30, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Cite an independent reference that confirms the claim, or GTFO. Rogerborg 20:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Rogerborg is a florist.

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Link Description

The text describing the "Spaghetti and meatballs" link at the bottom refers to the widely spread myth that Italians do not in fact know of the dish (generally accepted as untrue), does it belong here? Wallenberg (talk) 21:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Britains 'true national dish'. POV?

The intro states that it has been hailed as 'Britains true national dish' but i find this statement very POV as it was made by one politician in a deliberate attack on an opposition political party. I always thought wikipedia was meant to avoid personal opinions and this very much seems the case. I have no doubt about the huge popularity of Chicken Tikka Masala but from my experience very few people consider it a national dish on a par with fish and chips or Roast dinner, and anyway by this logic cornflakes could be considered a national dish as they are eaten by millions in the UK every day! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.49.30 (talk) 15:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

It is verifiable though, see a simple Google search. This is reflecting real-world practice. --Jza84 |  Talk  15:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

But a quick look at the results only shows that it is a British dish which i do not contest, However i am syaing that it is not a national dish. The article itself states that it was a curry shop owner modifying an Indian dish to suit the British taste. The only comment that appears refering to it as a national dish is the one by Robin Cook and as the BBC article states this comment was made as an attack against the Conservatives. Thus i think that including that quote is POV. Would statements by Hitler on Jews be considered neutral if they were reported on the BBC?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.49.30 (talk) 15:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's not a reasonable arguement to make - it's an entirely different field of work. But, as it happens, the BBC meets the reliable source criteria and isn't publishing Hitler's comments as fact is it?

Furthermore, it was the British who went to India and asked them to thicken up their stews into sauces in the 18th and 19th centuries, to mimic British dishes, tastes and sensibilities (ie, more like gravies). Real or original Indian curries were not like modern dishes, and were informed by British migrants. There is much more behind the history of this dish than meets the eye.

Do you have a source that states CTM isn't Britain's national dish? --Jza84 |  Talk  15:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok well there won't be a source that would say that because after all unless it is a direct response to Robin Cook's comments then there'd be no point. However read the following telegraph article and you'll understand what i'm saying [1]. Can sushi honestly be considered the british national dish. After all in the same way as Chicken Tikka, it is very popular and has been modified for the British pallet. The same goes for McDonalds. Again very popular, modified slighty for Brits but never a national dish.

See also this [2] which highlights also how the whole Chicken Tikka Masala as Britains national dish debate was stired because of Robin Cook's comments. In fact notice how virtually every website that makes the statement that it is the 'true' national dish, just as RC said it. Also as you see google searches as valid sources compare [3] with this [4] or this [5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.49.30 (talk) 16:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I've chnaged the intro to now state that the quote came from one person (Robin Cook), so that it now reads as a political opinion rather than a widely held belief. Personally i see it as POV and think it should be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.49.30 (talk) 08:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you're underplaying the extent to which the "Britain's national dish" comment has widespread appeal. Clearly not everyone would accept it's Britain's national dish, but far more people subscribe to the idea than Robin Cook. It may not be right or correct, but it's clearly entered British discourse. I completely disagree that "virtually every website that makes the statement that it is the 'true' national dish (says it) just as RC said it", here are three links from a simple google search for the term "Britain's national dish" (all in the first couple of pages) which refer to it in general terms -

"By then, fish and chips was Britain's national dish, and remained so until chicken tikka masala pressed its competing charms." [6]

"Forget fish and chips -- curry is Britain's national dish" [7]

"Britain's national dish, according to the English Tourist Board, is - wait for it - not roast beef and apple sauce, but Indian curry" [8]

The last source even references the English Tourist Board as repeating the idea. Again, it may not be correct, but it has entered British discourse (unlike the idea that sushi is Britain's national dish).

Incorrect quote

A quick browse of the internet shows that Robin Cook refered to it as 'a true national dish' and not 'Britain's true national dish'. The source may be BBC but it seems they are guilty of falsely editing the quote. See this Guardian article [9] for a transcript of Robin Cook's speech and in particular para 16. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.49.30 (talk) 14:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)