Talk:Southern American English

Be

I can't believe there is nothing in this article about words like "be". In the South, this word seems to be realized as [bəi] (like in Cockney). This applies to other words with /iː/ as well. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Under "phonology": "The nuclei of /i/ and /e/ relax and become less front." AJD (talk) 03:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't very specific. I guess that's why I was confused. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you recommend a reword to address the confusing prose? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It's just my opinion. Maybe other people don't feel the same way. I just like to compare dialects. It helps me understand them better. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 01:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Coke

Okay guys, I seriously don't know why everyone seems to think Southerners call ever soda they drink "coke", but we don't. Nobody I've ever talked to from Louisiana (my home state) nor any of my friends from Alabama, Arkansas, or Mississippi have ever and don't know anyone who has ever reffered to anything besides Coke as Coke. We all either say "soda" or "soft drink." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 (talk) 22:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe people think it because there's scholarly evidence published by linguists showing it. Check the reference. (And I certainly heard "coke" used to refer to any soft drink in Texas. In Georgia you can't tell because they don't drink anything but Coke there anyway.) —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 22:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

References don't mean much when you've been an eyewitness yourself. If I saw a cow floating through the streets I would certainly start question gravity, I couldn't care how many books you threw at me. I'll reiterate what I said; I nor no one I know has ever referred to any soft drink other than Coke as Coke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 (talk) 05:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOR. References trump personal experience at Wikipedia. If you saw a cow floating through the streets, you would still not be entitled to change our article on Gravity in accordance with your personal observations. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 20:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You realize how vehemently retarded that is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 (talk) 06:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. It would be chaos if it were any other way. Your personal experience is that Southerners do not use "coke" as a genericized trademark for carbonated beverages in general; my personal experience is that we do. Someone else's personal experience might be that "coke" can be used for colas (Coke, Pepsi, RC Cola, Dr Pepper, etc.) but not for "clear" soft drinks like Sprite and 7-Up. So who's to say whose personal experience gets to be mentioned? We avoid the problem by not allowing personal experience to influence article content at all, but rather relying on published sources. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 06:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have done so all of my life. "Coke" is merely a soft drink. You still need to specify which flavor you want afterwards. This is in Southern Maryland and Central Virginia. CsikosLo (talk) 18:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• Ditto. Everything's a Coke. Any canned, non-alcoholic, sweet beverage is a Coke. "What kind of coke do you want?" "Pepsi, please." And you want to know something real amazing? I know some Filipinos who say it's the same in the Philippines. In my opinion, that case is probably a result of the American Military presence there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonlandrum (talk • contribs) 08:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"Babe, bring me a coke?" "What kin' you want?" "Dacta Peppah, please." "Right-o." - A conversation between my wife (TN) and myself (FL) this very morning. She uses 'coke' all the time. I prefer 'soda,' but that's just me. Anyhow, in my experience, the standard southerner in Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, the Carolinas, Virginias, and the Republic of North Mexico, uses the following descriptors for a drink: coke, sprite, tea, koolaid, beer, and coffee. That's about it.  JAGUITAR  (Rawr) 18:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Split SAE

I think we should split the Southern American English article into an academic rendition and a more popular rendition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirk.Hazen (talk • contribs) 11:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

For what purpose? Both would still be subject to Wikipedia's policies on Verifiability and No original research. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 12:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

For the purpose of collecting together topics which the general public would like to read about on to one page, and then collecting together topics more interesting to academics on another. Kirk.Hazen (talk) 19:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

See WP:FORK. What you're advocating sounds a lot like a POV fork to me. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, Wikipedia never splits articles into academic and popular subject matter (excluding articles like Pop culture references to X). Aleta (Sing) 23:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

We have a few articles on extremely specialist subjects like quantum physics where there's a general-audience introduction article and an article for people who actually understand physics, but this article is hardly dense enough to require something like that. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 05:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Southern R-Colored Vowel

Southerners seem to pronounce their r-colored vowel more "heavily". I know "heavily" is not a good way to describe it, but I can't think of any other way to put it. It sounds similar to how they pronounce it in Ireland and the West Country of England. In my opinion, this is one of the most salient features of the dialect. I'm sure someone else here knows what I mean. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, most Southerners whose ancestors came to America from Ireland, came from Ulster where people still use the strong R.In fact it's a salient aspect of the Northern Irish accent.Also many people from Derry and Tyrone speak very slow (a salient feature in Southern American English such as is spoken in Texas).Indeed there are many similarities between SAE and Northern Irish speech.06:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk)

I think the subject you're alluding to with the "r-Coloured vowels" is Rhotic and non-rhotic accents. The article has maps of rhotic (voicing 'R's pronouncedly) & non-rhotic (softening 'R's) regions in England & the USA. Weasel Fetlocks (talk) 19:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The like Vowel

My ears tell me that the diphthong in words like like is often pronounced as [ɑɪ] in the South. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It is. Many speakers do not monophthongize it to [a:] when it is followed by a voiceless consonant, for example. AJD (talk) 04:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

"Many speakers"? No, most speakers. It is in fact widely monophthongized before voiceless consonants only in West Texas and "hillbilly" country. Elsewhere doing so is a powerful class marker, like a dropped "h" in England.

This article says the diphthong becomes [əɪ] before voiceless consonants. Maybe that is true for some speakers, but I here [ɑɪ] more often. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. [əɪ] may be Canadian but it is not Southern.

What the article says is, in fact, that that happens for "some speakers". AJD (talk) 21:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I am well aware of that. However, the article doesn't say [ɑɪ] occurs before voiceless consonants for "some speakers", does it? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you're right. I've added mention of that. AJD (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, Labov makes no mention of "Canadian-style raising." Jack^(Lumber) 15:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Now I found a source for what I was talking about. On page 312 of A Handbook of Varieties of English by Bernd Kortmann and Edgar W. Schneider, it reads:

Glide weakening was traditionally absent on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake Bay, around the Pamlico Sound, and in the Low Country of South Carolina and Georgia. In the former two areas, backing of the nucleus occurred instead in all contexts. Forms such as [ɑːe] were usual, with [ɒːe] and [ɐɑe] occurring sporadically. Backing occurred for PRIZE in the Low Country. Such backing also occurs widely in the South before voiceless consonants (PRICE) where that that context remains diphthongal. Another variation reported from older speech in Tidewater and Piedmont Virginia and the South Carolina/Georgia Low Country for contexts before voiceless consonants is [ɐi], with a higher nucleus. Acoustic analyses indicate that only some speakers from the those areas showed [ɐi].

There you have it. I find the PRICE backing before voiceless consonants to be a salient feature of SAE. It seems to me that it's very common. Thegryseone (talk) 02:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Intrusive T

One thing I have noticed that many SAE speakers I have listened to do is put a t in between the l and s in words like else. Thus else becomes /ɛlʦ/. I think this "intrusive t" (that's what I'll call it, anyway) occurs every time an orthographic l is followed by an orthographic s for some speakers. I don't know if ANAE mentions this or not. Then again, ANAE seems to concentrate on vowels mostly. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this feature is moderately widespread (though of course by no means universal) in North American English outside the South. I don't have any idea what its regional distribution is though. You're right that it's not addressed in ANAE. AJD (talk) 05:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I realize that it seems trivial, but who's to say which features of a dialect are important? I have observed, after spending much time in the South, that this feature seems more common there than elsewhere, but I'm sure it can be found in other areas of North America as well. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 18:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"but I'm sure it can be found in other areas of North America as well."

Such as Alaska. But I think you can get too nitpicky about what's SAE and what's not, because the "intrusive t" is probably just a lisp. I only know one person who does this. ~Jonathan (talk) 11:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. The "intrusive t" I'm referring to has nothing to do with lisping. A lisp is a speech impediment. As the lisp article states, "Stereotypically, people with a lisp are unable to pronounce sibilants (like the sound [s]), and replace them with interdentals (like the sound [θ]), though there are actually several kinds of lisp." The phenomenon I'm referring to is not a speech impediment. I really don't understand what you mean when you say I can get "too nitpicky". Labov et al. define SAE by the monophthongization of /aɪ/ to [aː] before obstruents. In some areas, there is glide deletion of /aɪ/ before voiceless consonants more than half the time. This happens in two areas: the Inland South in the Appalachian Region, and the Texas South in central and west Texas, says Labov. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

FYI: spurious info by 24.185.110.186

User 24.185.110.186 seems intent on changing a specific paragraph in the article to be incorrect. He/she was reverted twice by Ajd and me on 15 April 2008 and was previously reverted twice by Angr and Aeusoes1 on 28 December 2007. I have added a warning to the user's talk page (encouraging use of sources and discouraging OR). ++Arx Fortis (talk) 07:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Charleston Accent

There really doesn't seem to be much information on the Charleston accent on Wikipedia or anywhere on the internet for that matter. I would love to know more about it, but I just can't find anything. I realize it is fading away, but I just want to know what it used to sound like. Can anyone help me? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 01:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the link for "Coastal Southern" but the article it links to doesn't have any sources. I recall seeing a comparison about Boston dialect with the Charleston dialect, but I don't recall where. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 16:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Kentucky and Oklahoma

Im just very curious the map for the southern dialect in my opinion and many of my friends we are quite puzzled why Kentucky or Oklahoma is not fully included. yes kentucky may have been a border state but most kentuckians like (myself) & most northerners will tell you the whole state deserves to be in their from paducah kentucky to ashland kentucky is very southern to the core.June 19 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Featherhawk 81 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The source of data for the map is cited. Of course, there are no "hard boundaries" for things like dialects, but on Wikipedia, one must base assertions on cited, reliable sources. An individual editor's personal opinion (or that of his/her "friends") is considered original research and does not meet the criteria laid out in the Wikipedia guidelines for inclusion in an article. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 05:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Southern Illinois, southern Indiana, Southern Ohio, etc.

Why doesn't the map at the top of this article that shows the monophthongization of /aɪ/ to [aː] include southern Illinois, southern Indiana, southern Ohio, much more of Missouri, much more of Oklahoma, and some of Kansas? I know linguists have studied these regions. Kurath and McDavid called these areas the South Midland. I just don't understand why they're not included. Thegryseone (talk) 21:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Because the Atlas of North American English, which the map is based on, doesn't show ay-monophthongization in those regions. —Angr 21:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

But that certainly doesn't mean that the monophthongization of /aɪ/ doesn't take place in those regions, correct? It merely means that Labov et al. didn't study those regions, which is understandable, because there aren't any major cities in that area. Thegryseone (talk) 21:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

No major cities in southern Ohio??? Indeed southern Illinois wasn't examined, but Evansville, Terre Haute, Dayton, Hamilton and Cincy all were. —Angr 22:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I was overgeneralizing. Excuse me. Cincinnati would be the only one. I'm just saying that I don't think that map is completely accurate. Thegryseone (talk) 23:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

you know im from southern ohio & I speak with as southern dialectDayton,Ohio,and Middletown Ohio and I lived hear my whole life & most people I know have some type of southern dialect you know most of the people that live around here came from eastern ky &tn as early as world war 1 for work we only live like 30 minutes from the mason-dixon line —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.101.131 (talk) 02:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Formant Plot

Can someone find a formant plot for SAE? Thanks. Thegryseone (talk) 22:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Constricted R

I read here about something called a constricted r. Can someone explain to me what that is? Thegryseone (talk) 03:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it just means the "r" is pronounced (like all consonants, [ɹ] is produced by making a constriction in the oral tract). —Angr 06:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Appalachian and Elizabethan English

This section states:

• A popular myth claims that this dialect closely resembles Early Modern or Shakespearean English. [1] Although this dialect retains many words from the Elizabethan era that are no longer in common usage, this myth is apocryphal. [2]

I'm not contesting the statement, but these citations are atrocious. Does anyone have any better resources on the matter? Halogenated (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Changes made

Well hello y'all. I've tidied up the grammar section & removed the "word use" section. These examples of dialect words belong in the regional vocabularies article, which is more of a glossary of words, whereas SAA should focus on Southern grammar & pronunciation. I have moved to the regional vocab article any examples from this article there which were not there already. I did not move the citations since the other words on that page do not have citatons, but if anybody wants to retrieve the references, they can be found from the history. I have also added a link to the regional vocab article in the SAA article & vice-versa.

I've rearranged the grammar into a slightly more logical order, keeping similar points (e.g. past tense forms) close together. Also merged a few points on the list that were basically the same, & split a few which were saying different things. Weasel Fetlocks (talk) 16:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Y'all

I disagree with the reference that "y'all" is not used often in Newrer SAE. I can not speak for the rest of the peoplefrom other southern states, but I will say in Texas that we use the contraction quite often. I even use in my emails at work. If anyone from other southern states have the smae opinion as I do, please share them.Bigt2448 (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Y'all is used very often in SAE. I thought that was pretty obvious. In fact, even Northern transplants pick up y'all pretty easily. I think you misread that paragraph. What it said was, "Its uncombined form — you all — is used less frequently." This just means that rarely does anyone in the South ever say you all; it's almost always y'all. Thegryseone (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Wadn't that supposed to be "wadn't"?

When I read "turning wasn't into won't," I wondered if the writer meant "wadn't" (where the d is a like glottal stop followed by a nasal n).

And are the pronunciations (here represented by my redneck spelling) "dudn't" for "doesn't" and "idn't" for "isn't" generally used in Southern American English? If so, please add to the article. DBlomgren (talk) 05:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is used. I use it when I slip back into the accent, and my grandfather and father in law both use it frequently.  JAGUITAR  (Rawr) 18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the wasn't to won't is a grammatical comment rather than the issue of pronunciation DBlomgren raises. Aleta ^Sing 21:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Whenever

I have noticed that a lot of speakers in the South use whenever where speakers in other dialect regions would use when. For example, one time I heard a guy say, "Whenever I was twelve years old, we would play baseball a lot." Even educated Southerners seem to do this, which tells me that it is probably just part of the dialect. Sometimes I am so tempted to say, "What do you mean whenever you were twelve years old? You were twelve years old when you were twelve years old." However, I haven't said that yet, because I don't want to be an asshole. Thegryseone (talk) 17:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed that too, being used by people from East Texas and Louisiana. I've read that the construction is also used in Ulster English, so (like many other features of the Southern accent) it may well have originated with the Scotch-Irish. —Angr 09:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed a Norn Ironism, also found in parts of Australia & New Zealand, if I recall correctly. Jack^(Lumber) 00:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

New Mexico Southern Accent

In the areas around Hobbs, Roswell, and Clovis New Mexico there is a strong southern-Texas influenced-accent.

Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj (talk) 02:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Tangier Island Accent

It should also be noted that the residents of Tangier Island in Virginia's Chesapeake Bay have a unique accent that is very old and appears to be completely unrelated to the traditional Southern accent. Although the accent on Tangier Island appears to be fading as younger residents have grown up with access to mass media and numerous mainland tourists.

Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj (talk) 02:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Shared Features

I live in the South, and unless you go into an extremely rural area, you will never hear any of that if you live in a town with more than 1000 people (minus replacing got with have). Thats more of a redneck accent than a southern accent, and their are differences. Its like comparing the average northern accent to the Boston accent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.190.238 (talk) 16:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You will never hear any of what? What are these differences? Can you explain them? Thegryseone (talk) 18:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

southern rural ohio,illinois & indianna have a southern culture as well your map im sorry but your map super waaaaaay off I live in jackson ohio & we have a southern culture here

Who told you it was my map? Thegryseone (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The map doesn't show "Southern culture", it shows where linguistic research has indicated that the local dialect has a monophthongal [a:] for the "long I" sound before obstruents. —Angr 21:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that the dialect in southern Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio (especially the rural parts) does sound quite Southern, and so does the dialect in rural central Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, pretty much all of rural Missouri, and much of Kansas (which is mostly rural anyway). Also the Kansas City area seems to have quite a bit of Southern influence in its dialect. However, I don't know for sure if people in these areas monophthongize /аɪ/ before obstruents. But they very well might. When I hear people from these places, they do strike me as sounding Southern, though I can't explain exactly why. This is coming from someone who has the pin-pen merger, so that must not be what it is. I've read that a lot of this has to do with settlement patterns in the Midland region. The Northerners tended to settle in the cities and towns there, while the Southerners tended to settle in the rural areas and farm. As someone who is from this region, these differences do seem to survive to this day, even if people don't understand why. For example, there was this guy that went to high school with me, and the city-dwellers, including me, would always make fun of the way he talked. He lived in the outskirts, in the countryside, and we always thought he sounded Southern. We never understood why though. Settlement patterns are the same reason that Sarah Palin sounds like she's from Minnesota. I think that in these cases, the accent must get passed down from parents to their children at some point. There's no other way this could happen. But remember 68.19.190.238, that this isn't my map. I would research this stuff if I could and make an improved version. Thegryseone (talk) 10:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that "your" was intended as a singular referring to you specifically, Thegryseone, but rather as a plural referring to Wikipedians in general. —Angr 11:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Whoops :) Still, though, I definitely think the map could be improved, so I guess I agree with 68.19.190.238 in that respect, although I'm not sure exactly what he means. Thegryseone (talk) 17:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, do you have any concrete suggestions for the map? I based it on the Atlas of North American English. Maybe I could dig up some other isoglosses besides the /aI/-monophthongization line. —Angr 18:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The real situation is too complicated to show on a map. Thegryseone (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

AAVE

Of course the dialect of Southern American English owes it origins to African American Vernacular English. Ya'll realize that of course.216.78.55.7 (talk) 10:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The influence worked in both directions. —Angr 13:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Certainly back and forth. However the origins of the "Southern slur," were from the African slaves, attempting to speak a forced language. The white southerners, especially the children, picked up this slang dialect which quickly spread throughout the south with the migrations of the mainly uneducated southern population, the wealthy plantation families among those picking up the vernacular and calling it their own.216.78.50.116 (talk) 09:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion. The information you mention can not be added to the article, though unless we can give a reference for it. Do you have such a reference? Aleta ^Sing 18:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Self evidence.216.78.54.40 (talk) 09:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)