Talk:La Malinche

To the author of the original article (The Epop?)--- didn't mean to rewrite so much when I started, merely to correct or dispute a few things. Been almost living with Cortes and Marina, lately, and I guess I got carried away.

If you have sources on some of what I took out, for example that Marina was given to "Tlaxalteca" (sic?) in Tabasco or about her age, I'd really love to know about it.

-Dhermit

modern myths

I know La Malinche is still an important myth in modern Mexico- could there be a link to important myths in the modern world? It is a great tool to compare cultures with, the stories a nation keeps telling says a lot about what they themselves value.

it is important to note that la malinche is not a myth, no one disputes that she was real; however, she has become a mythical archetype. so, a comparison like you suggest perhaps should be to other real figures who have gone on to become archetypes. uri budnik 03:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the name "La Malinche"

I think we ought to mention that the word 'mal' is Spanish for 'bad' or 'evil', and therefore always creates a negative connotation in the mind of a native Spanish speaker, even if the word in question has nothing to do with 'badness' or evil. The prefix 'mal-' is used the same way as 'mis-' or 'mal-' in English, so when it occurs at the beginning of a word also carries a negative connotation. That la Malinche's name features the word 'mal' so prominently, and may possibly be a factor in the adherence of this name to this personality, ought to be mentioned as a factor concerning her in the Mexican national consciousness. However it is interesting to note that there is no such negative impression from that sound in indigneous languages. Makes me wonder how much the linguistics of the matter has influenced the perception of this historic personage. Rockero 21:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

"Malinche", according Bernal, was Cortés

The name "Malinche" is explained in page 202 of the book "Historia
verdadera de la conquista de la nueva España" by Bernal Diaz del 
Castillo, one of Hernán Cortés' men. 

"Malinche" was not Doña Marina, but Cortés himself. Marina, her Spanish 
name, was "Malin" for the aboriginals, and "Malinche" meant just 
something like "Malin's captain".  
telmo 19:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

What telmo says is true. It's on page 121 in my Díaz. Now we'll have to figure out who began using it in reference to Malintzín...--Rockero 07:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Bernal Díaz is not noted for his understanding of the intricacies of the nahuatl language, indeed he seems to have misunderstood most of it and gives many notoriously false etymologies and translations of nahuatl words throughout his account. There are two possible ways that Malinche received her name. One is that her name was malinalli "grass" in nahuatl and that the reason the spaniards gace her the name Marina was the resemblance of this spanish name to her original name. The other possibility is that they just named her randomly Marina. Anyway Since nahuatl has no /r/ sound they quite consistently exchanged r with l in their pronunciations thus making her malina. When speaking to someone respected as she definitely were judging from all accounts it would be unthinkable not to use the honorific suffix -tzin with the name. Nahuatl speakers would thus have called her malintzin. This word was then misheard by spaniards and rendered "malinche" (just like the other suffix -tli was always rendered -te in the hispanicized versions of nahuatl words (e.g. tecolotl > tecolote etc.)). When Bernal Diaz says this it is unfounded or based on a misunderstanding on his part. Maunus 19:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Addendum to "The Malinche" or "La Malinche" article

I have recently placed this request for addendum in the wrong location of the Mesoamerica project, and have been directed to this talks page.

I apologize if I am utilizing inappropriate structure/design or etiquette in my contributions to the talks page, but I was unable to find relevant easily-accessible material to guide me. My specific request/request-for-contribution is some of the modern day usage of the name "Malinche." It is true that she has been referred to as "La Chingada" or the damned or the one that has been violated (in essence, a victem). But it is also true within many off-shoots of the Mexican population as well as its culture, that there is multiple different meaning. IMHO, I believe that a 1 or 2 lines on Malinche's role (or usage of her name) in todays Mexican or Mexican-American society or culture, is insufficient given that an entire population of a continent has been affected by her interactions with history, and certainly as it continues today.  I have no literary reference to provide, no research to validate my assertions, and certainly am no Mesoamerican scholar. I however am a Mexican-American born in southern Texas where the population there is pre-dominantly hispanic, much as southern Los Angeles is. While this contribution or assertion may be nothing more than folk-lore, it none-the-less can be traced through multiple communities throughout Texas, California, New- York, Chicago-Illinois or any other place that Mexicans/Mexican-Americans have chosen to plant themselves. Among many of these communities and people that I have lived with, including aunts, uncles, friends, acquaintances and contacts, the name "Malinche" is used as a term in a very colloquial sense. It's used commonly in North America by many Mexican-Americans as a state of being.  Specifically, referencing that a person can be "malinche" if they are unusually cruel, mean or sinister.  It has also been used in many occassion to reference a person as a traitor much in the same way that Americans and the English use the term "Benedict Arnold" to describe a person as being traitorous or treacherous.  I realize that the term "malinchismo" is cited in the "Malinche" section, but its use as an adverb isn't really the only grammatical usage of the name, from my personal experiences.  And yes I have heard and used the term Malinchismo. This having been said, I conclude with my original disclaimer, that I have no project research, no statistical nor analytic nor descriptive data to reference. I simply have first hand experience through interaction with multiple generational usage of the term in various communities throughout the North American continent north of the Mexican border. My hope is that this request for contribution will be reviewed, some portion atleast, be included with the original Malinche" Project Page, and/or that those actively engaged in the project will contact me and give me feed-back, disclaim my assertions, educate me in appropriate submissions for request on a talk page and just a general "Hello we got your information."

• Jerry Zambrano

Jerry.zambrano 09:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. You are certainly right that "malinchismo" has been used to refer to people "betray" their indigenous roots. I think it was first used in the thirties when the indigenista movement was being born. I would recommend the book "The Aztec Image in Western Thought" if you want to read a discussion about how the indigenista movement was born in the thirties and how the view of the aztecs and malinche has changed over time. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 12:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Really? Its shortsighted to consider her a traitor to her people? I guess the indians (according to this article) should be thankful that they were almost, but not completely, wiped out!So i guess they werent forbidden to talk their own language and practice their own culture? Not to mention that the survivors spent their lives as slaves for the spanish after that? Yeah, thanks alot, Malinche - she really did them a fabour there.... Please get rid of this reactionary excuse for genocide and imperialism.(Durrutti68 (talk) 10:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC))

As opposed to total annihilation, yes, this was a considerably better fate.76.14.29.174 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC).

Pretty sure this stuff counts as original research, and so is not allowed.130.212.42.207 (talk) 21:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Merger with Donna Malinche

I support the merger or alternatively just deleting the "donna malinche" article which is not compettive with the material in this one. The title indeed is wrong, (as most of you probably know "donna" is italian not spanish and not used about Doña Marina)Maunus 19:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Good call. The Donna Malinche article has been redirected to here now, and agree that there was nothing worth salvaging from that article which is not already covered better here.--cjllw | TALK 08:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The Picture

The picture used to illustrate this article is from Lienzo de Tlaxcala and I am fairly sure that the Xaltelolco here is the one near Tlaxcala and not Tlatelolco, which only some sources say was earlier called xaltelolco. The reading of the glyphs also corroborate this interpretation: Citlalpopocatzin is named in other places as a lord of tlaxcalan affiliation, not of Tlatelolcan/Mexica.

Description of the picture from Lienzo de TlaxcalaMaunus 20:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Good call, Maunus. Yes, several online resources did say that Tlatelolco was also (or originally) named Xatelolco, but that link you found definitely points to the Tlaxcala town/village. I did not even think that that mound of sand would be a glyph! And I'm going to rush off and update the History of Tlaxcala article with this new information as well. Thanks, Madman 03:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The Name

Aside from any regular disagreements about hisory, I think it's important to continually refer to La Malinche as Malinche not Marina. This is Latin American history that's being related here and constantly using her Western-given name gives the entire article a completely Western-focused perpsective, i'm not saying that it's offensive (at least certainly not to me) but it does demonstrate to some extent how the author views the world--with a very Western lens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.68.51 (talk) 17:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem with 'Malinche' being used consistently throughout. Note that, the article is a product of many different folks chipping away at it over a long period of time, and that occasionally dissonant viewpoints are carried through. Not always a bad thing, if it's to describe in NPOV-fashion notable and referenced attitudes to the subject. But in this case we only need to mention the alternative names once (which is done), and settle on the consensus name for the remainder of the article.--cjllw ʘ TALK 02:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Malinche is an equally bastardized name, we simply don't know her original Nahuatl name - but Malinche certainly wasn't it. Theres no need to hold on to that. In fact there is more reason to call her (Doña) Marina since that is the name used for her in the contemporary sources, and since it is the only one of her names that we can be sure she actually ever used. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

mestizo?

how is she mestizo? she is purely indigenious in ancestry. perhaps itd be more appropiate that she was one of the first to know both indigenous languages and spanish, or the first to give birth to mestizos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.175.83 (talk) 17:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see where in the article it implies she is mestizo. The article does say (in the lead) that her son (by Cortés) may be considered as one of the first mestizos, so it may be just a misreading...?--cjllw ʘ TALK 03:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)