Talk:Manchester United F.C.

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Loan Players

Some clown has changed the loan players; I am unsure of who is away on loan and cannot change it. Just thought I'd point it out so someone more informed can correct this. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heracles2008 (talk • contribs) 10:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The article notes two players who are out on loan - Manucho and Jonny Evans. There are five more players on loan across the UK

Febian Brandy - Swansea City, Frazier Campbell - Hull City, Lee Martin - Sheffield United, Kieran Lee - Queen's Park Rangers, Darren Gibson - Wolverhampton Wanderers

Could this be added to the article?

Normally, these players would be included. However, since they are not listed as members of the first team at ManUtd.com, they are listed in the Manchester United F.C. Reserves & Academy article. – PeeJay 07:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The players PeeJay2K3 removed had previously (at the beginning of the season) been listed on the official website as first team players. It was only a couple of weeks after the Coventry match and the players being sent out on loan that they were removed from the manutd.com first team page. They also appeared on the official first team squad photo in August. They do not appear anywhere else on manutd.com, for instance in the reserves team. Manucho (who remains listed as on loan here) is not mentioned in the squad listing that you are siting as the only valid source either, so maybe he should be removed too? The same can be said of Danny Welbeck as he is listed as an Academy player on manutd.com and has never played for the first team. Evans only remains listed as the official site has not been updated since December. Fraizer Campbell has also played once for the first team this season before being sent out on loan. As you have said previously on this page the official site is often wrong.

The fact that there are inconsistencies in the players listed and the sources (or lack of them) that suggest they can be included here would indicate that the players I added should be reinstated.Decorativeedison (talk) 12:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested protection

I have just requested that this page be semi-protected again, due to the large amount of vandalism over the last few days. – PeeJay 12:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sponsorship

Don't United have a sponsorship with Air Asia, an Asian low cost airliner? Could that be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.26.20.222 (talk) 02:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

A recent Peer Review of this article indicated that the list of club sponsors should be limited to as few as possible. Since very few people are likely to want to know who the club's "official low cost airline" is, Air Asia was removed from the list. – PeeJay 07:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

According to kippreport.com and the times.com, Saudi Telecom is reported to have made an around $18m deal with football club Manchester United. The five-year deal that will grant the phone company rights to use Manchester United’s logo and imagery in its marketing within Saudi Arabia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arunfest (talk • contribs) 10:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Founding members...

It reads 1993 as the date of the premiership being founded... its 1992. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.75 (talk) 16:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames

I've boldly reverted back to the correct nickname and sourced it. If others can be sourced from WP:RS then they can be added; this is an encyclopedia after all, and we don't want to end up in the position where Arsenal could have "The Arse" added, or "Barcodes" added to the Newcastle page. Black Kite 19:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

This section "The club is one of the most successful in English football; for over twenty years, since the 1986–87 season, they have won 18 major honours, which is more than any other Premier League club." reads very strangely. First of all it's not 'for over twenty years' it's 'in the last twenty years'. Secondly, why start counting from the 1986/87 season when United won nothing that year, or in the following two seasons either? Thirdly, why say more than any other Premier League club, when it's more than any other English club full stop? I would change it to something like "The club is the second most successful in the history of English football and by far the most successful of recent times, having won seventeen major honours since the 1989/90 season"

86.145.242.98 (talk) 20:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone going to change this?

81.153.2.248 (talk) 11:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you register an account and change it yourself? – PeeJay 13:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism Reguarding Munich Air Disaster

Someone has drastically cut out all of the information about Man Utd and have replaced it with a rather crude chant about Matt Busby and his boys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.53.16 (talk) 22:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

So what? The vandalism was quickly removed, so what's the problem? There's nothing we can do to stop people from vandalising articles, short of fully protecting the page, so why the fuss? – PeeJay 22:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The vandalism is still there. And "so what"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by VGorasia (talk • contribs) 23:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No, the vandalism is not still there. You just need to refresh your page. – PeeJay 23:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it's still there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.108.232.21 (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

If refreshing the page doesn't work, try going to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manchester_United_F.C.&action=purge. That should fix you. – PeeJay 23:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

MUFC

I want to do a survey on moving MUFC page to MUFC (disambiguation). There is lots of ip user keep on Vandalism it. The problem should not be sloved in cyber cafe, but by a valid account. Matthew_hk tc 08:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I presume you mean changing the redirect MUFC to point to the dab page? (and not "moving" a page) Robert Ullmann (talk) 14:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Valuation of MUFC

The top (locked) section discusses the finacial valuations and contradicts itself:

"Since the late 1990s, the club has been one of the richest in the world with the highest revenue of any football club,[6], and is currently the second richest club in the world, based on revenue.[7]"

I suspect there's some confusion between value (shareholder value) and revenue. There may also be issues with revenue and revenue (excluding transfers).

This needs sorting by someone with access AND knowledge! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.171.87 (talk) 14:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Support

There should be more postive notes on present support There are plenty of articles where Alex Ferguson has praised the Manchester United fans. There is also an article on the stretford end part of Wikipedia where it says the stretford end was measured to be as loud as a jumbo jet Manchester United away fans are stated to be the loudest away fans in England, they generally outsing many home fans, with the most recent being at anfield in December 2007 (Sumzi, 22.54, 30 march 08)

Appearance record

During today's match vs. West Ham, both 5 Live and Sky Sports mentioned that Giggs can break the United appearence record if he plays the remaining 2 matches of the season (vs Wigan and Cup final). The Sun newspaper also had a small article about it, supposedly because a historian has found that Charlton was wrongly credited with a FA Cup appearance vs Bolton (iirc).

Unfortunately, I've been unable to find a online refernce for it, but has anyone seen one somewhere? I'd change the record table, but without a citable reference, I assume it would have to be changed back.

(I do note that the United stat site still says 759 however.) Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 14:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

---> http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={B4CEE8FA-9A47-47BC-B069-3F7A2F35DB70}&newsid=832725 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.34.200 (talk) 16:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is quite an interesting revelation. I'll see about changing the stats on our various pages. – PeeJay 17:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Now reported on BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/7382189.stm

I think we can change the stats now. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 19:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Updated this page and the stats page. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 19:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced. They say that Charlton never played in that game back in 1962, but if it wasn't him, then who was it? All official statistics say that he played in that game. – PeeJay 19:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

To me this smacks of United fixing the statistics to give Giggs the record this season before he gets pensioned off... Anyway the team in question for that match is currently listed as:- Gaskell, Brennan, Dunne, Nicholson, Foulkes, Setters, Chisnall, Giles, Herd, Lawton, Bradley Fd2006 (talk) 10:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Manegerial History

Obviously. It is also obvious that Frank O Farrell was the first non British manager as well, isn't it? (Namzie11 (talk) 01:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC))

The thing is that while he will always be the first non-British manager, it is extremely unlikely that he will be the club's only non-British manager for the rest of time. Therefore, there is no point in making the distinction. – PeeJay 01:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Cheers (Namzie11 (talk) 01:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC))

Ryan Giggs - Record Breaker

Would it not be appropriate to mention the fact that Ryan Giggs equalled the club's record appearances total in the match against Wigan Athletic on 11th May 2008? He has had a distint career at Old Trafford and surely it would only be right to credit this on this page? Please find below a suggested snippet of text which may be included:

‘This particular match against Wigan Athletic can be noted as a significant moment in Manchester United history, as it was this match that signaled Ryan Giggs’ 758th game for the club, a record which he now shares with the great Sir Bobby Charlton.’

137.195.250.2 (talk) 10:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps on Giggs' page (but without the word "great"), but not really apprioiate for this article (imo of course).Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 15:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say that this info is better suited to Giggs' own article too, as the record relates more to him than it does to the club. If this article made mention of every club record in its history section, the article would be nearly two miles long! – PeeJay 23:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Neville captain?

Look there's no doubt Neville would of been captain for 2007/08 but he never started a game and so never captained united all season so surely before he does that Giggs should be listed. Although i'm pretty sure Ferdinand captained more games including the Champions League Final so maybe it should just be removed or All three should be listed. What is certain for me is neville shouldn't be solely listed if at all. Any thoughts on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.168.83 (talk) 00:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Gary Neville is the club captain. The fact that Rio Ferdinand was the team captain (notice the difference between club captain and team captain) on more occasions is immaterial. – PeeJay 07:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest the whole of the Club Captain list is wildly innacurate. Whoever edited the list has included people who captained the side when the Club Captain was injured, that does not make them Club Captain. For instance Viollet and Wilkins were never Club Captains. Anyone who has had the Old Trafford tour will have seen the lounge with the Club Captain portraits on the wall. Half the players on the list here are not on that wall.86.8.9.240 (talk) 13:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The club captain list is sourced from a book entitled "Manchester United: The Complete Fact Book" by Michael Crick, and it seems perfectly fine to me. – PeeJay 15:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Well someone better tell the club they have the wrong portraits up in the lounge at Old Trafford. I've read many fact books on United with a plethora of wrong info in many of them, I know that the players on the list captained United at some point when the Club Captains were injured, but that dosn't mean they were Club Captain. Sammy Mcilroy was officially a Club Captain and he isn't on the list. Perhaps someone should get in touch with the Club itself instead of relying on a book.86.8.9.240 (talk) 16:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be extremely helpful if the club would publish a list of all club captains, but unfortunately they've not made such a list available as yet. Equally unfortunately, correspondence with the club could not be considered a reliable source, so getting in contact with them would be pointless. I have a complete list of everyone who has ever captained the team in order of the date they first took the responsibility if that would be any help, but I was under the impression that the current list was adequate. – PeeJay 16:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Swear Written Instead of Manchester United

Today, i opened the Manchester United page on wikipedia and found a totally unacceptable swear words instead of Manchester United F.C. As an adherent Manchester United fan, i found it totally offensive for any Manchester United fan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchester united rules (talk • contribs) 20:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, those swear words were offensive. However, the page was moved back to its correct location within two minutes of the original move, so you must have been one of very few people who actually saw it at the incorrect location. Actually, that begs the question, why did you wait 20 minutes after seeing the offensive title before coming onto the talk page to moan about it? Hardly a constructive contribution, I must say. – PeeJay 22:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It took me a little while to talk about the swear because i was creating my wikipedia account. I created my account as soon as i saw those offensive words and immediately wanted to talk about it. It's very sad to hear people saying bad things about Manchester United because to me Manchester United is like a religion, every matchday, waking up early in the morning to watch them playing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchester united rules (talk • contribs) 14:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, without wishing to offend, if those kinds of words hurt you then you need to man up. – PeeJay 14:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Dude, whoever you are, if you cannot appreciate anything then try to keep your sarcasm within you.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.75.5 (talk • contribs)

I'm not being sarcastic. – PeeJay 16:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with PeeJay2K3. Vandalism happens on Wikipedia and certainly by rival fans to any athletic teams' pages. I understand a fan's passion and loyalty to their team, but to take petty vandalism on the internet so personally is worrisome at best. Taking that much offense to a few swear words of vandalism on an article that's reverted quickly is childish. I wouldn't say "man-up", but rather grow-up. Vandalism should be taken seriously, but not personally. --68.77.15.214 (talk) 16:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Celebrities

Perhaps a list of well-known supporters as I am in New Zealand, if someone else did it I think it would add to the quality. Tshiels1 (talk) 02:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I created a similar list months ago. However, it was removed as such information is unencyclopaedic and quite difficult to cite. Obviously there are a few celebrities who definitely support United, but there are also some whose support cannot be verified through reliable sources. – PeeJay 09:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Alex Ferguson Leaving

Is it worth going into to much detail as to create a section speculating about his retirement? I can see that there are three sources

• The Mail Online David Gill denying speculation but suggesting Queiroz as replacement
• The Mail Online transcript of the back page interview when fergie says he is off.
• SkySports John O'shea expects him to make a U-turn

Should any section of this information appear at the begining of the manchester united entry or should it appear in the body of the report.

Should the subject of any new section concern just Ferguson leaving or include information about Quieroz taking over and his previous U-turn.PheonixRMB (talk) 22:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally, until such time as Fergie confirms he's leaving, and gives some sort of timetable (and not just "before I'm 70") I don't think it needs mentioning, especially as it's not the first time he's said he's going to retire. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 00:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The main club history section should be for trophy wins and actual transfers of staff (inc. players). If this info must be included on Wikipedia, it would be best on Ferguson's own article, which actually needs more biographical stuff on there, instead of just a history of the club under him. – PeeJay 14:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

the I leave the original content below for people to see and comment on its worth and were it should go

After winning the [[UEFA_Champions_League_2007-08|UEFA Champions League 2007-08]] Ferguson has stated that his intention to leave Manchester United within the next three years.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1021771/Queiroz-step-boss-United-Sir-Alex-decides-day.html |title=Queiroz could step up to boss United when Sir Alex decides to call it a day |publisher=Mail Online (UK)|accessdate=2008-05-27 |date=[[2008-05-25]] }}</ref> Manchester United Chief Executive [[David Gill (executive)|David Gill]] has moved to calm some speculation about Alex Ferguson's retirement although he believes that Manchester United's Assistant Manager [[Carlos Queiroz]] would be ideally suited for the managers job.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1021832/Fergie-wont-retiring-insists-Manchester-United-chief-Gill.html |title=Fergie won't be retiring for some while yet, insists Manchester United chief Gill |publisher=Mail Online (UK)|accessdate=2008-05-27 |date=[[2008-05-25]] }}</ref>

I am sure this won't be the end of it PheonixRMB (talk) 14:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Reserve Team Coaches:

I have on two seperate occasions changed the reserve team coaches from Brian McClair who is no longer the "Caretaker Reserve Team Coach". And replace him with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Warren Joyce as joint coaches of the team. This is confirmed on the Manchester United official website.

• ManUtd.com

Consulrjo 12:45, 28 May 2008 (BST)

That Link Appears to be dead PheonixRMB (talk) 11:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ole Gunnar Solskjær and Warren Joyce will not take over as managers of the Reserve team until the start of next season, which doesn't technically start until 1 July. Similarly, Tom Heaton is not actually on loan to Cardiff until then, so I will be changing that too (actually, Heaton probably won't be going on loan until after the tour of South Africa, as I assume he'll be going on that tour as United's fourth-choice keeper). – PeeJay 13:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

To all intensive pruposes then the reserve team management has changed seen as the season is over. Its the equivilant of signing a player for a future date knowing fulwell he won't take part in any other fixtures and hence he has "joined". I think it should be changed and I am with Consulrjo. PheonixRMB (talk) 21:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

As you can see by the reference Consulrjo provided, the article states that "United will have two coaches to guide the Reds' young charges in the Reserves league next season". The club acknowledges that the transition from 2007-08 to 2008-09 has not yet taken place, and so should we. The cut-off point is usually 1 July, so we should at least leave it until then. – PeeJay 21:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

@ PheonixRMB - actually, players shouldn't be changed as "joined" until their contract comes into effect regardless of wheter they're going to play any more games for their old team or not, as shown by the multiple problems with last seasons signings. If waiting for a contract change works for players, it should work for coaches to. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 10:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair Enough. I thought for a restructuring exercise whether it matters too much as thereis little difference between talking about future changes and the crystal ball rule.If a team says this is going to happen and there is a "plan to..." how much weight should be put upon these statements? I wish there was more of this disscussion so I can learn and to stop waring. Cheers PheonixRMB (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with future events is that they miht not happen. For example: Joe Bloggs is leaving Liverpool to sign for MU, and his contract will start on July 1st. Tom and Dick keep changing his Wiki article (now) to say he's a MU player, Harry keeps reverting. Meanwhile, Joe has gone on holiday to Australia, goes surfing, and has his leg bitten off by a shark, and has to retire. So has he ever been a United player? No, but if Tom and Dick had got there way, his article would say yes.

Ok, an extreme example (taking the mickey out of a UK tabloid football strip), but if someone doesn't take up a position until date X, there's always the possibility that something could happen to prevent that.

So, in this case, saying Ole is the coach now is wrong. Saying that Choccy is the coach, and Ole is due to take up the role in July would be ok (imo at least). Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 14:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

refusal

Couldn't we put a bit in the history about the refusal to take part in the fa cup Itfc+canes=me (talk) 20:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Richard Hawkins

I was reading the Sheffield United website and came across this consulrjo 20:35, 7 June 2008 (BST)

• SheffUtd.com

That doesn't answer why he has the title "Head of Sports Science" though. – PeeJay 19:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I have recentley read the Manchester United official magazine "United" and in it there was a special section where they highlighted who all the people around Manchester United's dugout were. In this section it declared that "Richard Hawkins has the fascinating title of 'Head of Human Performance'. He works with the sports science team at Carrington, helping the players reach peak physical condition". consulrjo 15:54, 15 September 2008 (BST)

I undid this change because it sounded made up, sorry. Can you provide a ref ?

Aaron carass (talk) 15:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

"Anatomy of the United Bench". Inside United (195): pp.18–19. 2008. Richard Hawkins has the fascinating titl of 'head of human performance'. He works with the sports science team at Carrington, helping the players reach peak physical performance. {{cite journal}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

two contradictions

On this article it claims manchester united are the biggest and richest football club in the world, however on the real madrid article it makes exactly the same claim in the lead paragraph... Which one is true? 86.145.107.154 (talk) 17:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Depends on the way you look at it. IIRC, Real Madrid has the most paying members, and also the highest turnover, while a survey found that Man Utd has the most fans (whether paying members or not) and also the greatest profit. So both are true, in a way. – PeeJay 18:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Ronaldo's european golden boot

he has been offically annouced as the winner for the 07-08 season on the uefa website, should be added to this artical somewhere near the golden ball winners, as he is the first and only manchester united winner of this high profile honour —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.73.88.101 (talk) 19:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Featured in Hungary

The article about Manchester United became featured in Hungarian (magyar) WikiPedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.245.166 (talk) 18:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Solskjaer/McClair

The page states that Brian McClair is the caretaker reserve team manager. He had this job from June 2006 until recently, but Ole Gunnar Solskjaer has been appointed as the permanent manager of the reserves for the 2008-09 season. This means that Solskjaer will no longer be the first team's attacking coach. Also, it fails to mention that McClair is the current director of the Man Utd youth academy, a role that he has held simultaneously with the reserve team job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noamshouseparty (talk • contribs) 22:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Solskjaer doesn't take up the reserve team manager position until 1st July. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 04:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

What about McClair, as far as I know he's currently the youth academy director. Noamshouseparty (talk) 19:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The page does say that McClair is the director of the youth academy. In fact, under the club officials section, it says "Director of Youth Academy: Brian McClair". – PeeJay 19:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the staff details to incorperate Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Warren Joyce as the new reserve team duo due to the fact they have now taken charge of their first match of the pre-season and Brian McClair is no longer caretaker manager of the reserves in any way, shape or form. - Robert - 11:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we can enclose one more site as the reference site

This Site collected lot of useful stats for MU

http://statbunker.com/football/btb/btb_team.php?TeamID=3&CompID=200 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Statbunker (talk • contribs) 18:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think it´s appropriate for you, Statbunker, to be promoting a site with the same name? Smacks of COI to me. – PeeJay 08:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Number of fans

From the links given, it appears that the research company involved interviewed 1,000 people, found 50 Man Utd fans (5%), and concluded from this that 5% of the world's population (330 million) are Man Utd fans. Is that right? 62.181.46.66 (talk) 08:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Unlikely, as surveys conducted by research companies are not that unscientific. I haven't had time to read the sources myself, but I would suggest that the figure was obtained by a slightly more complex method than you suggest. – PeeJay 18:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.197.240.85 (talk) 11:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC) 

The survey interviewed 1000 fans from 21 countries so can hardly be included surely? interviewing 21,000 people? i'm sure 99% of people in mcdonalds restaurants like chips but that doesn't mean 6.6 billion do. this should be changed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.111.76 (talk) 08:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I think they interviewed 1,000 people spread across 21 countries, not 1,000 people from each of 21 countries. Nevertheless, the reference seems valid. – PeeJay 09:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Stretford End Flags

Can you add a feature on the banners on the Stretford End? These are collaborated by the fans group www.stretfordendflags.com Supporters can submit banner ideas, with the best ones being made and hung on the Stretford End. Stretford End Flags relies on financial donations from supporters to provide the banners. Last season Stretford End Flags created the "BELIEVE" mosaics seen in Moscow and at Old Trafford for the Semi final against Barcelona, as well as the mosaic featuring a European Cup 88/99 design seen on the Stretford End. The Stretford End Flags group also produced the large TIFO flags seen on the pitch at the European games and members of Stretford End Flags on-lione forum get the opportnity to wave these at ecah European Home game.

Ed Woodward

Ed Woodward is and Executive Director on the board of Manchester United Ltd. He is a former investment banker and has been on the Manchester Unite payroll since 2006. He has been working out of the London office and has been working on sponsorship oportunities. He was largley involved in the origional takeover helping Malcolm Glazer obtain the money to buy the club.

I have just taken delivery of my 'One United' membership pack this morning and it clearly states that he holds the post of 'Executive Director'. Also on the MUST website there is reference to him being appointed on the 30th March 2008.

So update the article. But don't forget to cite your source. – PeeJay 17:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Manucho in the first team

I've removed manucho from the first team list again, as according to ManUtd.com (the website we're meant to use as the source material), he's not listed as a first team player. Indeed, until his work permit status is sorted, I doubt he can be listed as a first team player, or even a reserve player. If we're going to list him as a first team player, against what the linked source says, where do we draw the line? Do we also add players like Possebon? He was more likely to be in the first team for last season than Manucho was, and, as of this moment (unless you can see the future), he's more likely to play for the first team next season.

Has anyone a good reason why he should be listed within the first team list? Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 20:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm 100% certain that there was a news report where Ferguson said that Manucho would be part of the United first team when he starts training with the club. I just can't find it. But it definitely exists. – PeeJay 20:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a news report stating that Manucho trained with the first team while on trial with the club back in December. – PeeJay 21:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Dammit! Had a longreply that got lost due to a server lag! >:(

Ok, in brief (as I can't be bothered to type it all out again), why was it, earlier in the season, when various editors (wrongly) tried to add various players to various Man Utd squads, you kept telling them to check ManUtd.com, as that was the source we used for all the squads, and yet now you're disagreeing with the same source? We can't have it both ways - either we accept the ManUtd.com is the source we use, in which case manucho is NOT a first team player (at the moment), or we don't, in which case it will be a free-for-all. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 21:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you find a reliable source that says that various other players, including Possebon, are considered first team players? I've found one for Manucho, but I'm yet to see any evidence that Possebon, or any others not listed on the provided reference (excluding Manucho), are first teamers. – PeeJay 21:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You're missing the point - as of this moment, Possebon (or any other reserve/academy player) is more eligible to be in the first team than Manucho, who cannot play in this country, as he currently doesn't have a work permit. I never said they were first team players, just they have more chance of playing than he does (he has zero, even if you ignore the injury). As you said yourself before the last season started, friendly games mean nothing (and he's unable to play in them anyway), it's only once the website lists players and numbers it becomes official.

Or have you changed your mind since last year? Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 21:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

However, I do have a source that does say Manucho isn't in the first team http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={91EA3BE2-963A-4BAB-802C-F46A0EF3FCA3}&page=1 http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={91EA3BE2-963A-4BAB-802C-F46A0EF3FCA3}&teamid=458&page=2 Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 21:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Glazer Takeover

What's the justification for Glazer's takeover to be given its own sub-heading in the history section. Why can it not be merged into the rest of the history since '99? It is significant, yes, but so are many other events. ForeverDevil (talk) 16:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't disagree with that. Feel free to merge the sections. – PeeJay 21:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it should remain in a sub-section, as the history section it would otherwise be merged into is entirely about on the field events, whilst the take over was very much off the field. Fd2006 (talk) 09:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The founding of the club and Munich air disaster are not given sub-sections despite their greater importance. I'll have a go at it now. ForeverDevil (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Rafeal & Fabio

Why do these two players not have their own wiki pages yet? Can they be created or is their some wiki rules stating otherwise? I recall that they used to have profile pages but they disappeared over a year ago. With them both having made their debuts in pre-season friendly against Peterbrough surely this can now be rectified? Also following Fergie's comments post match it seems as though Rafael at the very least will be getting some first team action this coming season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.73.108.219 (talk) 07:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

These two players do not have articles yet as they have not made a senior competitive appearance for Manchester United yet, and are therefore not notable in a sporting sense. Any speculation that either of them will play for the first team this season is crystal-balling and is not allowed. – PeeJay 08:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I was just going off Fergie's comments here: http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7BB4CEE8FA%2D9A47%2D47BC%2DB069%2D3F7A2F35DB70%7D&newsid=6615370 seems to indicate he may play some part this year. There is also this profile of the twins on the man utd page as of today http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7B6DDFCB6E%2D3471%2D4E45%2D9385%2DF04D05F4A70D%7D&newsid=6615387 Understand if they cannot have their own pages yet however. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.73.108.219 (talk) 09:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

They also have their own squad numbers now - 20 & 21 which was confirmed at last nights friendly against Juventus. Surely this would indicate that they are to be considered members of the first team squad? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.73.108.219 (talk) 11:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Just because a player has a squad number doesn't mean he is in the first team, especially when it's a squad number for a pre-season friendly. However, the two of them have been listed in the first team squad on the official website, which indicates that they are in the first team. Nevertheless, they are still not notable as they have not played a competitive match yet. – PeeJay 11:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

From my understanding they were using correct squad numbers for this match which indicates that these will be their squad numbers for the current season. the number 20 was obviously already vacant and the number 21 it looks like Dong has been removed from the first team squad. Thanks for the update —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.73.108.219 (talk) 11:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the Manchester United website they have been given numbers 98 and 99 and their profiles say they are first team players. Surely any player who is in a select group of 25 or so players playing for the European champions deserves their own page. The very fact this discussion exists sure means they're notable. (http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={91EA3BE2-963A-4BAB-802C-F46A0EF3FCA3}&teamid=458&page=2) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.12.138 (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, according to ManUtd.com, they have not been given those numbers, they are merely listed under those numbers. If you look at page 2 of Rafael's profile, you'll see I'm right. Also, merely being in the squad does not confer notability. They must play a match and then they will be deemed to be notable. – PeeJay 14:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

My mistake. But does the interest in the players not make them "notable"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.12.138 (talk) 15:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Any answer to the above? I think it's a valid point. Also, does being part of the squad for the Community Shield squad mean a medal/honour? Would the holder(s) of a medal not be entitled to an entry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.155.189.85 (talk) 10:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hard to say really. It's a matter for the folks at WP:FOOTY, IMO. – PeeJay 10:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Rafael is now listed on the Man Utd website as wearing No.21, although so is Dong Fangzhuo.--Classymike (talk) 08:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Squad numbers 2008

Will anyone else be pleased once they finally release the new seasons squad numbers, so we can stop all the edits changing numbers? I think Rafael has had 3 different ones (not including #99) already! Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 22:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it goes without saying that we will all be pleased when the speculation ends and the facts begin. By the way, what were the other two numbers Rafael's held (other than 21)? – PeeJay 22:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't it 30-something, or was that another player that's ping-ponged between numbers over the last few days? (haven't really been paying much attention that last few days, hence the lack of edits) Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 22:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

He had the 19 shirt for the Peterbrough match as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.218.198.201 (talk) 09:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Kit Manufacturers

No offence PeeJay, but once again you display why a 20 Welshman should not be having the final say over a article about a 120 year-old Manchester football club. Don't get me wrong - I think you do a good job on here in general - but you sometimes need to concede that there are others out there who (try to) contribute and who know more about certain things than you do.

While there is no good online resource to use as a citation, it is obvious from photographs in books and not least from the shirts themselves - on display to anyone who visits the museum at Old Trafford (as well as some in my own possession) - that United's shirts were made by Umbro from at least 1958 (possibly even pre-war) until Admiral took over the contract in 1975. Unfortunately, the Umbro website is all style over content and only mentions Manchester City shirts.

Will the following photographs do anything to change your mind so that the edits may be reverted?:

Alex Stepney in 1973 - Umbro logo on shirt: http://www.jamd.com/search?assettype=g&assetid=3429909&text=alex+stepney

Noel Cantwell's 1963 FA Cup final shirt (screengrab from Official History of Manchester United DVD) - Umbro label visible inside collar: http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p118/decorativeedison/PDVD_001.jpg

The 1958 FA Cup final shirt: http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p118/decorativeedison/My1958Shirt.jpg http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p118/decorativeedison/label.jpg http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p118/decorativeedison/Umbroprint.jpg

I realise that these links aren't good enough to use as citations on the article, but as it stands, what is written there is incorrect. Either the edits I made should be reverted or the section should be rewritten by someone else so that it is factually accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decorativeedison (talk • contribs) 22:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You could have at least provided a link to some of those images in your original edit summary. All I had to go on was the link to historicalkits.co.uk, which showed that United's first kit manufacturer was Admiral. Obviously someone had to have made the kits prior to the 70s, and your photos prove that Umbro made some of them, but all reliable print sources refer to Admiral being the first. – PeeJay 22:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oops, apologies I forgot to sign my previous comment!

Thanks PeeJay, I realise that published info is scant and I intend to correct that - I have emailed Dave at historicalkits.co.uk and asked him to update the site with the info so that it may be used as a ref. I thought the links would be of more use here than on the edit summary.Decorativeedison (talk) 00:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it probably was best to put the links to the images on this page rather than in the edit summary, but it certainly would have been better to make them available before making the edit, or even at the same time, but by not linking to the images until after I'd reverted the edit, you can't really blame me for the course of action that I took. Nevertheless, I look forward to the update of historicalkits.co.uk so that we can update the article text. – PeeJay 06:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I probably should have done it that way, I was just surprised to see the incorrect information on the page as I hadn't noticed it before and I thought it was common knowledge that Umbro made the kits in the 50s, 60s and 70s. As for waiting before we update it - there are no refs or citations on the page to prove what is currently claimed - that Admiral were the first kit manufacturers - so wouldn't it be just as encyclopedic (not to mention nearer to the truth) to revert the edit anyway? Decorativeedison (talk) 12:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You know, it's the strangest thing. I just took your last comment on board and went to look for some references to use in the article, and came across this page. As you can see, the site acknowledges that Umbro did indeed make United's kits prior to Admiral, so we now have an acceptable published source! I'll add that in now, and reword the paragraph to indicate that Admiral were the first to put their logo on players' shirts. – PeeJay 12:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I use that website often, but as it didn't specify any years, I didn't think it was good enough. It's better than the nothing we had before though I suppose, so thanks for your input PeeJay. Decorativeedison (talk) 14:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there anything about the modification I've made that you think should be changed? I wasn't too happy with the wording, myself, but I'd like to hear your input. – PeeJay 15:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It's alright except that Umbro's logos were used on the goalkeepers shirts only for some reason before Admiral took over, so it's slightly wrong and could perhaps be reworded to something like "Admiral were the first company to apply their branding the players kits". That's just nitpicking though to be fair. Unless you want to put the seasons in when the manufacturers started to outfit the team then it's probably okay as it is otherwise. Decorativeedison (talk) 16:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Notability, Friendlies and the Commnity Shield

Ok, so players shouldn't have articles before they're notable - i.e. played a competative game. now, the Charity/Community Shield is "offically" a pre-season friendly, but if it's a friendly, why is it counted towards appearence stats, here and elsewhere? If it's not a friendly, then it must be a competative match, meaning that (for example) Rafael can now have an article. Or am I missing something here? Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 09:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

And yes, perhaps this should be on WP:FOOTY, but there you go!

The Community Shield isn't a friendly. It's a legitimate competition organised by the FA. The reason why Rafael does not have an article is not because the Community Shield is not a competitive match, but because he DID NOT PLAY. He was named on the bench but did not make an appearance. Currently, Rafael's appearance record stands at 0 starts, 0 substitute appearances. Therefore, he is not notable. Same goes for Rodrigo Possebon. – PeeJay 10:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Dong

I see the mighty Dong has finally had his squad number removed by the club, who have clearly realised that he has no footballing ability whatsoever and isn't even managing to shift too many shirts in China!

In one and a half seasons he has managed two starts - one in a meaningless end of season match at Chelsea and one in the Mickey Mouse Cup - and one substitute appearance - in a meaningless Champions League match in Rome.

Should he retain his place in the first team squad list in this article or should he be moved to the Reserves article? He no longer appears on either list on Uniteds website. Fd2006 (talk) 13:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Hard to say, really. For a time, he was only on the Reserves page, but it seems that he's not on either any more, like you say. Maybe we should just leave him where he is. – PeeJay 13:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well currently he's in China, so I for one would be more than happy to see him stay there!!! On a serious note, if the match programme tomorrow also doesn't mention him on the squad list I'd be inclined to move him just to the reserves article. I can't see him playing for the first team again, especially now the likes of Welbeck, Campbell and Macheda appear to be ahead of him. Fd2006 (talk) 13:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Bit harsh, that. Especially since Heaton, Brandy, Simpson, Martin and Cathcart aren't listed either. Strangely, Cathcart is the only one of those on-loan players who has been given a squad number for this season. – PeeJay 13:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Mascot section

Is the new section about the club mascot really necessary? It's not been written in a very encyclopaedic way for a start. – PeeJay 21:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Cristiano Ronaldo

Cristiano Ronaldo is missing from the roster... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.9.65 (talk) 09:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Rivalries

Manchester United and Chelsea have also been involved in a growing rivalry over the last few years because of the two now becoming the two most dominant sides in English Football. An example of this was in the 2008 UEFA Champions League Final when the two sides were involved in a scuffle and Chelsea's Didier Drogba was subsequently sent off for slapping United's Nemanja Vidic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewfergus07 (talk • contribs) 11:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Club Captain section

E. Thomas is down as first known captain, but without a nationality, whilst Jack Powell is down later as the first non-English captain. Either that makes E. Thomas English, or if his nationality is truly unknown, means the note needs removing from Powell. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 01:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

EPL Managers

Mark Hughes (Manchester City), Steve Bruce (Wigan), Roy Keane (Sunderland) Paul Ince (Blackburn) - four of the EPL managers played in the first 11 for Manchester United in a FA Cup Final.

Your point? – PeeJay 19:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"North Road in Newton Heath, near to where Manchester Piccadilly Station"

This is quite misleading, it is actually quite a distance, about 2 miles! From the Oldham Road heading towards Oldham you can see a newish construction which is planned to be part of the metrolink extension, North Road (now Northampton Road) is just about there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.95.67 (talk) 03:50, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I quite agree. I will change it now. – PeeJay 11:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

doubles etc

the article reads "Single match competitions such as the Charity/Community Shield, Intercontinental Cup/World Club Championship or Super Cup are not generally considered to contribute towards a Double or Treble". While I don't believe it counts towards a double treble etc, the world club championshiop is not a single match competition, and the article should reflect this, and change the wording where appropriate.218.103.254.60 (talk) 07:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Dennis Law relegated Manchester United?

There's a bit in the 1970s section that says : 'dennis law scored the goal which many people believed relegated manchester united' (or something like that). This isn't correct because Man Utd were relegated that day by other results and so the outcome of this match was meaningless. Just because 'many people' believed it to be the case does not make it worthy of inclusion in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.121.36 (talk) 16:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Club captains, year incorrect

{{editsemiprotected}} 1893–1984 Unknown

This should read: 1893–1894 Unknown

Done. Oldelpaso (talk) 15:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)