Talk:Thomas Hobbes

The bits from the 1911 article article are only partly edited. Parts of it didn't really survive the OCR process in any meaningful form. And it might even be too detailed (although in that case, maybe it should be condensed and the full article should be moved onto a subpage.)

I'll be diving back into it soon to do some editing, when I have more time. But I'm never in favor of removing potentially useful information from an article just because it's a little messy right now. Dachshund

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Hobbes's views are much disputed, and Richard Tuck, although influential, is also much criticized. It would be nice if this entry could give a more balanced view of Hobbes's philosophy. In particular, if it could incorporate criticism of the traditional interpretation, works other that Leviathan, etc.

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In October 1679 a bladder disorder was followed by a paralytic stroke, under which he died, in his ninety-second year. He was buried in the churchyard of Ault Hucknall.

It seems that at least up until 1679, Hobbes's life was not terribly nasty or brutish, nor was it at all short. --Sewing 23:50, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hobbes lived under a monarchical government, which he defended for the very reason that he believed it altered the natural condition of man in such a way that his life would no longer be nasty, brutish or short. --Adam Acosta, 20 March 2005

Hobbesian

In the debate on US Neoconservatives, they are often pointed out as "Hobbesian". Maybe this would merit to be mentioned?

A dictionary definition once existed as the wikipedia article on Hobbesian:

The belief that violence is the state of nature, and therefore incurable. Life is a fight of all against all, resulting in a world with, quoting Hobbes: "No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

Synonyms: barbaric, brutal, ferocious, heartless, monstrous, primitive, rough, rude, ruthless, uncivilised, wild, fierce, hellish, revengeful, unfeeling, unkind, vicious, virulent, wicked, hostile.

--Ruhrjung 21:27, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Hobbes did use the term 'state of nature', although very rarely, and never in his main works Leviathan or Behemoth. Eg see Rudiments chapter 1, section 4.

Founder of political liberalism

Is it really accurate to say "Hobbes is the founder of political liberalism"? According to whom? Isn't it more common to say that Locke was the founder? POV notice: I more or less like political liberalism, and I can't stand Hobbes. - Nat Krause 07:53, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 08:38, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)) I don't know what political liberalism is, but I doubt Hobbes fits it, just guessing from the name. He strongly believed in the power of the sovereign and approved of censorship where necessary for reasons of state.

It does seem a little unlikely, especially since shortly afterwards the article says that Hobbes opposed the seperation of powers, a key tenent of classical liberalism. I believe Hobbes is in fact the father of political conservativsm.

(William M. Connolley 08:31, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)) I doubt Hobbes can truley be considered the father of any current movement. He is far too uncompromising for anyone's tastes nowadays (or then, come to it).

Hobbes was one of the first to introduce the concept of the social contract, and for that alone he could be considered a father of modern liberalism. Bigger brains than mine (John Gray, for instance) make this point and others. It is, to this autodidact, a perfectly reasonable position to take.

Hobbes' philosophy sounds more like libertarianism than liberalism to me, particularly with respect to the supremacy of the free market.

(William M. Connolley 22:09, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)) Probably not. Libertarians would probably forbid the government to break contracts, either between individuals or between individuals and the govt. Hobbes allows the govt to do anything. Indeed, the supremacy of the central authority is his major argument, which is hardly libertarian, as I understand it.

Hobbes can be seen as the founder of political liberalism because he is the foundered of the political philosophical tradition that see the individual as the basic and central unit of social life. It is from this world view that later thinks, such as Locke, create the tenets of political liberalism that is more recognizable today.

I agree with the earlier comments that it would be more accurate to describe Hobbes as the founder of libertarianism. The social contract requires adherence to laws, and breaches of this result in strong government retaliation. Hobbes does not wish government to intrude on other aspects of everyday life in the state. As even the current entry correctly states, Hobbes believed “so long as one man does no harm to any other, the sovereign should keep its hands off him”. As such, the central authority in Hobbes’ state is only strong when dealing with issues pertaining to the breach of the social contract, and does not interest itself on issues such as the public welfare, as a liberal government would. Ergo, he’s definitely not the founder of liberalism, but there’s a strong case for him being the founder of libertarianism (considering of course that they hadn’t quite mastered the free market when he was around)

(William M. Connolley 20:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)) Whether he could be considered the founder I don't know; but I'm pretty sure he is not compatible with current libertarianism. As far as Hobbes is concerned, the Sovereign can do as it likes. It is certainly true that the Sov should obey the law, and even perhaps "so long as one man does no harm to any other, the sovereign should keep its hands off him" (rather unhobbesian langauge). But note the *should*: from Hobbes POV, if the Sov chooses to disregard the should, there is nothing to stop it breaking the law and no recourse.

Those who say that he was the founder of political liberalism argue that it has a Hobbesian basis: the idea was that Locke "corrected" Hobbes on Hobbesian principles, that liberalism better protects those things which Hobbes said were alone worth protecting. Hobbes is called the founder, however, because it was he who argued for those things being the true ends of government, the protection of which was the touchstone of all legitimate authority. Political libertarianism is one strand of political liberalism, and one that I don't think Hobbes would support. As it is a contested matter, I think his being the founder should be mentioned in the article as one interpretation among others. -RJC 06:12, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Calvin and Hobbes

(William M. Connolley 19:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)) There is now a link to calvin+hobbes at the bottom and top of the page. I don't think the one at the top is appropriate. No-one is going to look for C+H under T H. Better to make Hobbes (currently a re direct) into the disambig and delete C+H from this page.

Tuck on Hobbes... para cut to talk

(William M. Connolley 19:02, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)) I've cut this:

This political philosophy has been analysed by the influential Richard Tuck as a response to the problems that Cartesian doubt introduce for moral philosophy. Hobbes concedes, with the sceptics and with Descartes, that we cannot know anything about the external world for certain from our sense impressions of it. His philosophy is seen as an attempt to base a coherent theory of social formation purely on the fact of the sense impressions themselves, arguing that these sense impressions are enough for man to act to preserve his own life, and building up his entire political philosophy from that single imperative.

here to see if anyone wants to defend it. Firstly, we cannot know anything about the external world for certain from our sense impressions of it is not obvious. Hobbes clearly asserts that we get our ideas from external sense impressions, but doesn't obviously express Cartesian type doubt. Secondly, I can't see how he bases all his theory on this: he explicitly introduces "laws of nature" type things which appear to me to be deductions from the mental sphere.

Vandal edit disappeared...?

Something odd happened, and the edit I reverted, by 17:39 . . 208.35.239.18 has vanished from the edit history as of now. I don't understand.

Hobbes at Oxford

The article states that Hobbes attended Magdalen Hall in 1603, yet the link states that Magdalen Hall was renamed Magdalen College in 1458. Which one's right?

He is listed as an alumnus of Hertford College. I haven't heard of him being a student of Magdalen...

Hobbes atheism

Other uses popular immediately Hobbes published carry connotations of atheism and the belief that "might makes right."

This sentence is very convoluted. Can anyone who understands this reword it? Also, wasn't Hobbes an atheist? --Malathion 4 July 2005 09:27 (UTC)

I believe that another version would be: Other uses of the word, which were popular immediately after the publication of Hobbes's work, carry connotations of atheism and of the belief that "might makes right.". Hobbes was not an aetheist (at least, as judged from Leviathan). He frequently uses language that implies/directly states his belief in God. OTOH, his logic forces him to conclusions that might have looked like atheism at the time - that the clergy are subject to the crown; that there is no way to be sure of revelation; that which books of the bible are genuine is a matter for the civil power; etc. William M. Connolley 2005-07-04 10:17:34 (UTC).

There is an ongoing debate over Hobbes' atheism. Some try to make him into a hard-nosed Christian, based primarily on the fact that he calls himself one. From this, they interpret his thought in a way that does not require that he have disdained God. I don't think they have a leg to stand on. His statements on superstition, religion, and true religion are so convoluted, and logically incompatible with a belief in God, that it seems implausible that any believer could have written them. On the other hand, denying that he believed in God means accepting that we can judge what Christianity is and thus whether another has adhered to it. This is very close to judging the validity of another's belief. Some people might be uncomfortable doing this. To say that Hobbes either was or was not is to take some stand concerning what a belief in God entails. --RJC 4 July 2005 14:26 (UTC)

Hobbes statements on religion and true religion don't seem at all convoluted to me: to the contrary, they are succint and precise: to whit: Feare of power invisible, feigned by the mind, or imagined from tales publicly allowed, RELIGION; not allowed, SUPERSTITION. And when the power imagined is truly such as we imagine, TRUE RELIGION. Leviathan, ch VI. Its on my user page... William M. Connolley 2005-07-04 15:24:47 (UTC).

Yes, so one could immediately think that, objectively, there is no difference between "religion" and "superstition," or that religion is just a state supported superstition. This would of course cause quite an uproar, were it not for the addition of "true religion" as a separate category. So the question then becomes, is there a sustainable difference between "religion" and "true religion" on Hobbes' premises, or is the latter added simply to avoid too much of an uproar. Yet the truth of a proposition depends upon the significance of the terms with which it is stated, and this significance is in turn set by the sovereign (sorry, I left my Leviathan in the office, so no citation). A true religion is true because one's sovereign has said it to be, which is to say that true religion, as well, is nothing more than a superstition allowed by the sovereign. This can be even further refined: a true religion is a superstition said to be true by one's own sovereign, religion merely one allowed, and by any sovereign. Given how careful Hobbes is with his definitions, attempting to establish the appearance of a system modeled on the exactitude of geometry; and given that he has already snuck nasty things into his definitions, such that the aristocratic virtues are not so much refuted as defined into psychologically impossibility; it is unlikely that he missed this about religion and true religion. --RJC 4 July 2005 18:50 (UTC)

I agree that the addition of "true religion" was probably a sop to the times. OTOH I disagree with your interp otherwise: as it clearly says: tales publicly allowed, RELIGION - ie, its religion if the sovereign sponsors it. True religion, by contrast, is when its really like that, which is of course outside the sov's power. I don't know what you mean about the aristo stuff, though. Are you talking about "honour"? William M. Connolley 2005-07-04 19:06:40 (UTC).

Yes and no. When pride is just vainglory writ large, and magnanimity just an (inexplicable) contempt for small helps, the Aristotelean gentleman no longer exists as a human type. Regarding truth: as one of the things the sovereign does is to fix what various words signify (this being one of the things contested in the state of nature), and as truth and falsehood are nothing more than attributes of speech, Hobbes really does make the sovereign the arbiter of truth. (I suspect, having noticed your attachment to climatology, that you would find this assertion of sovereign authority to be particularly distasteful.) Hobbes does hold out the possiblity that one can make erroneous suppositions about events to come or events passed, but he is quite clear that this does not involve truth or falsehood. We may want to move this to our talk pages (if you wish to continue it), however, lest Talk:Thomas Hobbes actually be a discussion of Thomas Hobbes, rather than of the article about him. --RJC 4 July 2005 20:31 (UTC)

Hobbes words (see Lev page; king of dark; point 3) don't support your interpretation of "true". Truth appears as an absolute. William M. Connolley 11:14:28, 2005-07-14 (UTC).