Talk:Law of chastity

Overall overhaul

I cleaned this up both grammatically and doctrinally. It still needs to more overtly say that the Law of Chastity is a concept and not a semantic policy somewhere. Mrcolj 16:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

POV

I am removing the "like a plague" as if trying to avoid pornography is unusual for a religion to teach

It's a phrase used by Hinkley, the former recently dead prophet that a member should 'avoid pornography like the plague' however, without a good link and presented as a quote i agree with your judgment in removing itSanitycult (talk) 08:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Nudism

I've requested a citation for the dubious statement that nudism is prohibited by the law of chastity. If none is forthcoming, it may be deleted. Rich Uncle Skeleton ^(talk) 07:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In response to the edit summary, I am an endowed member, and marital nudity is definitely not prohibited, nor has it ever been. Decades ago it was often advised against, but there was never any official doctrine or policy about it. There is no penalty, nor temple recommend interview question, nor anything similar, related to being naked. --Masamage ♫ 08:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

What about "do you wear the temple garment day and night, as instructed..." etc. ? To me, that seems to impliedly reject it.

Also note that the statement in question was placed in the subsection called "Broader law of chastity as taught by church leaders". It's possible a church leader has taught against it and a citation exists. That doesn't necessarily mean it is an "official doctrine" or one to which a penalty attaches. And if it has been taught, but only in the past, that may be nonetheless worth mentioning. That being said, I would only give the editor a day or so to provide a citation since I've notified him/her directly on the user talk page. You can remove the statement soon if you wish and I won't object. Rich Uncle Skeleton ^(talk) 08:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with waiting a very short amount of time. And yes, there is a question about the garment itself, but that "as instructed" now includes permission to remove it occasionally (such as for showers, for swimming, for sex, etc), although this wasn't always the case. No details are now given on exactly when it's appropriate to remove it, and I, at least, was told that nobody is allowed to say anything more specific than this; that it's completely between the individual and God. It is true that people used to wear their garments literally always, but statements to that effect would need to be in their hisotrical context, not stated as if they are presently true. Except I think it's already discussed in the Garment article. --Masamage ♫ 18:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Hm, yes. I just thought "nudism" suggested that you are naked close to 100% of the time. It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that a person could legitimately feel they were wearing the garment "as instructed" "day and night" if they are almost always naked. Rich Uncle Skeleton ^(talk) 21:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh. Yeah, that is true--I was reading it as the more general 'nudity'. Stating this in terms of lifestyle-nudism seems really confusing and roundabout, though; it'd be much more informative to talk about the garment rule itself. (Anyway, the word 'prohibited' makes it sound like anti-nudism is an explicit rule.) --Masamage ♫ 21:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I see what you are saying now. I was interpreting it as a lifestyle choice as discussed in Nudism. But no, if it's a mere suggestion that a person can't be nude, I find that ridiculous and definitely not part of the LDS law of chastity. Rich Uncle Skeleton ^(talk) 21:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Being mormon and obeying the law of castity, one couldn't also be a nudist, I think most people would understand that this doesn't mean mormons can never be nude.Sanitycult (talk) 09:00, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Facts

There are a number of facts (marked and unmarked) that need substantiation. A number of them offer an apparent wp:POV that without support need to be modified. For example, to assert that "chastity is considered by many... to be more important than a person's life" based on the non-doctrinal statement by a prophet is certainly not factual nor supported. In another instance, to say that the "stress of avoiding sexuality, pornography and unchaste thoughts has resulted in several Mormon youths getting married after very brief courtships and sometimes no courtships at all" without substantiation offers a unsupported POV. These and other facts need to be edited so they are less absolute and more representative, or just removed completely. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Chastity?

Is the material covered here so very different from what is or should be covered in Chastity#In Abrahamic religions? If this article is to stay, it should at least link to the more generic chastity article, and probably deserves a mention on the chastity (disambiguation) page. I don't want to opinionate just yet on the possible merge, but I do want to get a little conversation going to see what people think about it. At the moment I do slightly lean towards a merge. --...but what do you think? ~B F^izz _(talk) 06:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a significant difference between chastity as a christian idea and the Law of Chastity as proscribed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is the difference between a general guideline and a detailed instruction procedure that expands the general guideline radically. "The Law of Chastity" is not something average protestants would understand unless they just took it to mean chastity in general. Maturbation, for example, is not usually discussed when talking about "chastity" in general, but the LDS church discusses this exaustively, it is one of the major tenants of The Law of Chastity. I don't know how clear I can be about this, arguing about it feels like arguing about "truth", "beautiy", "evidence" or even trying to convince a Buddhist that life isn't all suffering.Sanitycult (talk) 09:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Against The Law of Chastity is a specific doctrine of a single church and merits a stand-alone article. Burying it within another article would negate the notability of the LDS Church's singular doctrine. Chastity within the LDS Church is very distinctive from that of other Protestant churches. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the topic of "chastity" is specific and substantial enough when taken in the context of the LDS Church. With Wikipedia's potential in mind, I have removed the templates from the chastity article as well as from this article. But I would like to see the article develop a little more clearly the points that both of you have brought up. ...but what do you think? ~B F^izz _(talk) 04:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Law of Chastity and Proposition 8

It's a stretch to include information about criticism of the LDS Church's stand on chastity and link this to California's Proposition 8. The tone and unsourced statements found in that section of content suggests someone with an overt POV. The phrase "Legal critics are concerned by the LDS stance against homosexuality and their open advocation of Proposition 8 in California" is unsubstantiated and unless a source can be found, should be removed. The quote afterward is specifically about Proposition 8 and not chastity and does not belong. Unless someone can offer substantive reasons not to make these changes, I will do so in a few days. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Uh, its a criticism section. These are criticisms, it is up to the reader to realize that some of the facts and research is subjectively motivated, but the ACLU is a credible sourse and their opinion carries enogugh weight to be included- i beleive - but am willing if most people agree, to clean it up or remove it. The Law Of Castity as a mormon concept an not a general Christian concept (many protestants have no qualms with homosexuality nor do they wish to "define" marriage) has a direct link to the Church unusual move into California politics (witch is not typical of the LDS church - there are republican and democrats who identify as mormon and the LDS church has usually been silent on elections) that changes the constitution. I think its relevant for people to know why, if they want to know, the law of chastity is more important to mormons than the general protestant concept of "chastity."Sanitycult (talk) 09:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe that WP standards assume that readers are supposed to filter facts and research to determine which are subjectively motivated. As you probably know better than me, even critical facts are supposed to be supported and verifiable by reliable sources. Verifiability and a neutral POV are two of the three legs that hold up the stool named Wikipedia.

If the Law of Chastity and its doctrines—which I will stipulate are not generally accepted Christian precepts—were the basis for the LDS Church's advocacy on behalf of Proposition 8, then the article should include sources supporting that idea, otherwise that idea is an individual's point of view and would quality as original research.

I was specifically referring to the prefatory phase, "Legal critics are concerned..." Note the plural. This is followed a single quote from the ACLU. If the ACLU quote from a blog were valid, then the sentence ought to read, "The ACLU is concerned..." However, ACLU or not, "personal and group blogs" are not generally accepted as reliable sources. Blogs hosted by newspapers and written by professionals may be acceptable, but the ACLU is not a newspaper, and is more akin to a group, specifically a professional advocacy organization. If an ACLU blog has previously approved as a reliable source, then I could not find it after a few minutes search on WP.

True, the LDS Church's work to pass Proposition 8 is unusual. But I think the connection to the Law of Chastity is thin and not very relevant here. If a member of the church leadership had said something that connected the two, it could see the connection. But I don't see it yet. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

There seem to be a few concerns here...I'll try to address what I see, from how I see it. Firstly, (is firstly a word? Firefox spell check says yes) it is not our place to decide whether or not the criticism itself is legitimate, but whether the criticism actually exists. Since it does exist and seems to be notable, it does indeed (in my opinion) belong on Wikipedia in a "criticism" section. However, whether or not it has a place here on the Law of Chastity page is less clear. I would venture to say yes, but it isn't clear in my head exactly why it should go here and not be confined to some other article more closely related to marriage (the Celestial marriage article, for example), or on the general article about LDS beliefs (aka Beliefs and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). I rather dislike how the article currently says "the ACLU..." but we seem to be lacking on sources that mention similar criticism from other places, though I'm fairly sure the sources are out there somewhere. I do believe that the ACLU citation is useful to include, because we are not using it to back an attempted factual statement such as "the church's implementation of the law of chastity is detrimental to civil freedom." Rather we are using it to say "so-and-so finds the church's implementation of the law of chastity to be detrimental to civil freedom", which is indeed factulal, that so-and-so said that.

In summary of my rambling: keep the citation and criticism. Find more sources to back up the notability of the criticism; whether or not it is "valid" or "correct" criticism, it is relevant to the article. Unless it's OBVIOUSLY off-the-wall fringe-esque criticism, which this does not seem to be. ...but what do you think? ~B F^izz _(talk) 00:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Use of self-published source

The statement "Medically the church has been criticized for its intolerance of masturbation and its use of incorrect information to advocate such intolerance" is sourced using a site that is first, a self-published site, like a blog, which does not meet WP standards, to wit:

"...self-published media, whether ... personal websites ... are largely not acceptable."

Second, a quick scan of the content found on the source web site shows that the author is obviously anti-LDS and not objective, again violating WP standards.

"Articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."

Since the source does not meet WP standards, both it and the statement about the church's "intolerance of masturbation" should be removed. I will do so in a few days unless someone can provide another source. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I see two main problems with the statement that you have mentioned, and have apparently removed already (which is good). First, it uses a passive voice: saying "the church has been criticized", which masks WHO exactly is doing the criticizing. I would suggest using the who tag when that sort of material exists but is not begging immediate removal. Second, the church's "intolerance of masturbation" and "use of incorrect information..." is vague and misleading, and does seem to require more solid sources. It's the same as saying "the church has used incorrect information..." which is clearly POV unless we provide both the specific information allegedly used and some conclusive information disproving it. ...but what do you think? ~B F^izz _(talk) 00:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Criticism about completing college

The quote about fewer brides and grooms finishing college was concluded by the statement, "They imply that 'Mormon norms' are responsible for this trouble with college completion." However, the authors draw no such conclusion. The exact context is:

"Of the sixteen reporting states in 1976, Utah had the highest proportions of brides and grooms who had completed some college education prior to marriage. But of those Utah brides and grooms who had started college prior to marriage, smaller percentages completed four years of college than in most other states. The presence of Brigham Young University in Utah probably explains much of this pattern. Virtually all of the 24,000 full-time students at BYU are members of the Mormon Church. Nearly three-fourths are single..."

Because they did not make any connection between any Mormon norms (i.e., the Law of Chastity), except that Mormon youth use BYU as a dating scene and tend to marry early, the statement that the authors implied a connection between graduation rates and chastity becomes original research, which violates WP standards. I have removed the statement and the source as being unsubstantiated. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with what you've done. This kind of information might belong in an article about LDS Marriage, but seems rather off-topic for an article focusing on the Law of Chastity. ...but what do you think? ~B F^izz _(talk) 00:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Criticism by "many Protestant religions"

The article contains a statement that needs to be substantiated or removed:

"However many Protestant religions are harshly critical of the LDS concept of marriage. "The difference, of course," according to Nichol's book Prostitution, Polygamy and Power, "lay in the Latter Day Saint's concept of "eternal" or "celestial marriage," defined in the 19th century as plural marriage."

The "many Protestant religions" who "are harshly critical" are unidentified. If they are in fact "harshly critical," then there certainly ought to be some published sources. At this point the criticism is speculative and unsourced, resulting in original research.

The next statement about plural marriage from Nichol's book apparently attempts to identify polygamy as the key source for the Protestant religions' criticism. In context, this quote (page 10 of the book) is referring to the early settlement of the Salt Lake Valley.

So while this difference may have been true in the 19th century, I don't see what it has to do with any criticism of the Law of Chastity today. Can anyone explain? -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Membership and "sexually inappropriate thoughts"

The following quote in the lead paragraph states:

"In order to be a member of the LDS church in good standing one must refrain from adultery, fornication, masturbation or sexually inappropriate thoughts."

First, I have certainly seen and can readily find support for denial of church membership or fellowship based on acts of adultery or fornication, but am unable to find any reports of instances where individuals were disciplined for "masturbation or sexually inappropriate thoughts." Can anyone help here? Otherwise I think the statement should be amended to exclude "masturbation or sexually inappropriate thoughts."

Secondly, the phrase "in good standing" is ambiguous. By what standard is this evaluated? Who is evaluating the individual's behavior? I think this ought to be rephrased, perhaps as, "Individuals who engage in <specific acts> are subject to formal church discipline, which may result in disfellowshipping or excommunication."

-- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Young males (called Deacons in the Church) are "punished" for their masturbation habits (A high crime in mormon dogma) if they confess during a Bishop Interview (Masturbation is always asked about - especially of young girls [there are no male Bishops, by the way and this is another huge concern seeing as many Bishops have been accused of sex abuse and inapropriateness with young female Mormons who must do these face-to-face interviews about their masturbation habits, sexual thoughts, any fornicative action such as heavy petting or groping or not be able to do Baptism for the dead at the temple and general mormon acceptance, once a year interviews are strictly enforced]and even if one does not confess to masturbative habits one is asked about sexual innapropriate thoughts (witch if one is not married is appearantly ALL sexual thought) Usually sex thoughts of unmarried people are not "punnished" per-se but there is harsh criticizm in many cases depending on bishop and the old requirement of read more LDS literature, pray more, fast more, ect until theses thoughts "dissapear" or something. Masturbation IS punnished, and often, one is no longer allowed to partake or bless the sacrement if one confesses to masturbation. There is an article where an ex-mormon girl complains that her bishop kept insisting she confess any and all thoughts on her sexual desires, witch she refused to do until he guilt tripped her to the point she admitted that she liked a boy on television and somehow ended up telling him (through pressure no doubt) that she thought about him while "grinding" her body lightly against the side of the couch- she was adamant however on never acheiving an orgasm (witch as she was 13 years old is not surprising). She was told not to partake of the sacrement for a month and she was teased about being a filthy girl by other girls in the church for it. The punnishment is severe, not as bad as adultery/homosexuality but its pretty bad. I'll look for sources some time but most of them are x-mormons who are synonymous with "anti-mormons" acording to the LDS despite many of them not actually "against" the church. It might be hard to find secular disinterested literature that cooberates, but if all else fails finding the official mormons stance given to bishops for their interviews will probably suffice.Sanitycult (talk) 20:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Note that I have changed the wording of the intro paragraph significantly. I hope that you both agree that it communicates a clear and understandable sense of what the law of chastity is. While intro paragraphs generally avoid using sources (trusting the rest of the article to cover everything mentioned with greater detail and citation) I do feel that the temple recommend source is good to have. As for whether or not the church discourages masturbation and sexually inappropriate thoughts, we can probably agree that it does. Whether or not one is in "good standing" while doing such things is a gray area and it may be best for us to simply not address the issue. Says I. And I have been known to be wrong on (rare?) occasion, so take things I say with a grain of salt and don't be afraid to tell me I'm wrong if I am. =] ...but what do you think? ~B F^izz _(talk) 01:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The LDS church discourages masturbation, and we should (ought) to be able to find sources for that. tedder (talk) 05:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

lede rewording

In general, I like the changes to the lede section. However, it is fairly circular, and could use some balance. Just noting it here, in case anyone feels like discussing. tedder (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Criticism Section and Other Problems

This is not to say my interest in this and other articles focusing on the LDS church is waning, but I have no intention to "influence" the article any further. My additions to the article were only to thicken the relevance as there was a moment when it was suggested a merge with the general protestant or religious idea of chastity, witch the Law of Chastity is not. The unfortunate reality of wikipedia articles and information on the church in general is that there are only three interested parties, four if you distinguish between secular and religious anti-mormons witch I do not. Namely LDS members, ex-mormons/people being urged to join by Missionaries, and Anti-mormons. All of these parties with exception of SOME ex-mormons/people being urged to join are intensely biased about any LDS information. For example, facts about the temple ceremony are offensive to LDS members and are often removed, subverted or distorted by the LDS church members while facts about the population of the church and history of LDS prosecution are often attacked by Anit-mormons or given new, fringe theory spins. In general ex-mormons and people being encouraged to join have very little information besides personal experiences and are little help. Beyond Mark Twain and a few other semi-interested but not actively engaged people, the LDS religion is both too outlandish and too mundane to get anyone outside the bubble of its insistant importance to care about it. So in my opinion, it is best to "agree to disagree". There is a conflict of interest of course, Anit-mormons want no positive mention in any of these articles and want a lot of non-topic information to paint the general picture of a mind/money cult. LDS leaders and some members would perfer as little information as possible in any mormon articles except for what is considered important as an indoctrination concept (In this article for example there seems to be a lot of downplay about the LDS war against masturbation witch seems fine to mention within the church but is innapropriate to tell people interested in the church about this until they are well on their way to membership.) Both the LDS and the Anti-mormons are being disingenuous of course, the first are cutting all information they deem antagonistic to their prostelyting efforts regardless of the validity and how these conceps are actually presented within the church, and the former are trying to broaden the scope of every article to include rediculous fringe theories and outlandish accusations. One to make the church look good and one to make the chuch look bad. But beyond what the LDS church is (be it the one true church or a dangerous theocratic cult) first it exists. That is there are facts about it that while may not make the church seem "normal" enough for the LDS and at the same time make the church sound too "normal" for the Anti-mormons, are still facts none the less. I propose, especially for this particular article as I do not wish to be a watchdog on it anymore, that we stick to the facts. Specifically, what warrants the difference between chastity as a Christian concept and the Law of Chastity as an important concept to one specific Christian religion. How does the Law affect LDS members (children, adults, LDS leaders) and the rest of the world (Civil Rights, Women, Homosexuals) differently from the general protestant idea of chastity. Finally, what are the criticisms and praise for the LDS effort to enforce the law of chastity within and without the church? My proposal (feel free to agree/disagree)

1. The Law of Chastity is seperate from the idea of chastity even according to the LDS church. Sermons in the Ensign and at conferences make this distinciton. Chastity is simply protecting one's body as best one can, the Law of Chastity is a responsibility of perfection in order to be worthy of the Lord's gifts. This law is extensive and detailed and has specific punishments and requirements for forgiveness within LDS dogma. So far, the article vaguely explains this and there is a lot of disorganized attemts to convey it, but I feel (correct me if I'm wrong) that both LDS members and Anti-mormons would equally like this defined. As long as it is based in the world of objective fact this is the first thing we should do about this article. Clarity, organization of the principal and distinction from general chastity as a concept.

2. How does the Law effect its members, what is it like to be an LDS member, growing up in the church focused on teaching this Law. How does the church do this? (Primary to Young Men Young Women)What are the details of the Law. The church's stance on homosexuality, masturbation, adultery, fornication, petting, groping, pornography, ect. How has this effected the secular world (This will be difficult without a POV, but can be done) the church's efforts to keep its members seperate from the outside world and any and all pre-conceptions mormons have to deal with [there is little to no information in the article about how LDS are perceived by the outside world, although it is common to think of them being clean cut (a major part of the Law is a dress code witch has yet to be included) celibate (youth) and difficult to date/marry if not LDS.] There is of course, no room for positive or negative comments in here, however.

3. There is little criticism and the praise for the LDS Law of Chastity is weak at best peppered infrequently. Obviously the Law has consequences and these consequences are both opinioned as "good" and "bad". There needs to be far more critizism and praise in the article. I suggest ending every section that deals with issue #1 and issue #2, beyond the introduction of course, with some positive statement about how the Law effects LDS life and how the secular world has applauded them. The criticisms need to be in their own section so as to not belabor the issues. These critizisms need to be clearly stated as someone's (the sourse) opinion. And have good refferences, and be relevant. (Critisizms on the church's stance on homosexuality, masturbation, political pressure from the church based on their moral code [prop 8] are relevant, sex abuse by Bishops, the yearly interview dreaded by young mormon girls, encouragement to marry, encouragement to have many children might be legit criticism but are not relevant. Praise on LDS attitudes, sexual education program for the youth, and chances for forgiveness in the LDS world are fair, but insisting that LDS are "more" chaste than other religions or less likely to participate in infidelity or get divorced has nothing to do with the law of chastity and more to do with the concept of "eternal marriage".

If anything I really want to point out that the unique views on homosexuality and masturbation (most churches do not encourage homosexuals to even be members and most protestant religions have no opinion on masturbation) the LDS have and a keeping of the criticizm section. No more "nuking" the crit sections because it personally offends. The critics have to have legitimiacy of course, have to be sourced, but I strongly feel there should be a crit section. This is not the LDS church's private soapbox. This is a source for supposedly NPOV information. Critics do have specific things to say about the Law of Chastity, it has been adressed and it is important to them. Blanking the section is just taking advantage of the general disintrest of people when it comes to LDS dogma. I hope somehow that LDS editors can at least see that people seeking to understand the church need information such as this. That is all I have to say, sorry for spelling errors. I will probably no longer participate in this article, but I hope that fairness can shape it into something better in time.(Not logged in, but I'm Sanitycult) 173.28.190.80 (talk) 09:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)